does anyone make high compression pistons for a 170

[sireland67]

X3 on EGGE for pistons.
They made me pistons to raise the compression on my Keiser Supersonic Flat head L-134 engine.
$180.00 in 2-3 weeks, these pistons were very good quality, .080 over, I built the engine in 2008 and it is still going strong, keep in mind this is the price for 4 pistons.
Call them they are great to work with and they take pride in there work.
As with any piston change, balance the bottom end to keep it living happy for years.

 

[Bill Dedman]

I'd have to disagree with you bill. Small cubic engines benefit greatly from boost! While everyone is quick to say "no replacement for displacement", that isn't entirely true. Boost is the replacement!

I think what's been prevaliant with most I the slant turbo builds is simply overcomplication! For a mild street build I don't see the necessity in a lot if what goes on with these turbo builds.
This setup should be reliable and I imagine it would make near 180-200bhp easily!

I never said small engines didn't benefit from boost. They surely do.... but a 170 is SO MUCH SMALLER (virtually one-third,) than a 225, right off the bat, it has to overcome that diminished size before making any gains on the bigger motor.

To clarify. 1.33 X 170 is 226... but .66 X 225 is only 148.5.. Now I know why I did so poorly in math classes in school...

Engine Builder online magazine says, "Hanging a turbo on a small engine allows a little engine to breathe big. With only 6 to 8 pounds of boost pressure, a turbo can increase power output 15 to 25% or more over a naturally aspirated engine. (225) motor, stock. "

So, with 10 pounds of boost, maybe you can get 33% more out of a 170, but that only puts you up to the output of a stock, non-boosted 225. And, with a LOT of parts, expense, planning, and time.

Makes no sense. Not worth it, for what you get.

You'd be way better off starting out with the bigger motor to begin with, since 225's are so easy to come-by (mine was given to me!)

Now, if you think the amount of mechanical jeopardy that exists by turning that little 170 8,000 rpm, and boosting it to 20+ pounds, is worth the risk.... you can surely make a lot of horsepower, but at what potential cost? RPM kills engines...

Not worth it, probably, for a street engine, I think.

No; I am not in favor of using a 170 for anything but all-out racing in venues such as those that use pounds-per-cubic inch, where boosted or no, the 170 is absolutely unbeatable! It makes for a GREAT race motor, because it has a short stroke, revs to the sky, and the displacement matches the head flow.

But on the street... it's just too small, when the 225 is the same size, externally, and everything bolts up. Hell, a 225 is really small, when compared with the competition; 454 Chevys, 460- Fords, and 440 Mopars... gimme a break!

And if you ever think I am somehow NOT in favor of turbocharging these slants, consider this: I was twice warned to "tone it down" in my discussions of the advantages of turboing slant sixes... with management here, threatening to ban me for life, IF I didn't quit pissing off the V8 members of this forum... they were getting so many complaints about me.

Not hard to see where my heart is...:violent1: LOL!

 

[vntned]

I got ya bill! I'm a big boost advocate myself, and am a big fan of your turbo beast y'all are building!

I agree that with boost the 170 won't be what the 225 would be with boost. However, I do think it's more worthwhile, if the intention is to keep the 170, to go boost before NA. I've actually been struggling with the same dilemma with my '64 dart. It has a low mile 170 in it that runs great! I love driving it and love the mid 20s mpg it consistantly.

I thought more power would be fun, so I proceeded to collect a HyperPak intake, Holley 390 and a pair of Clifford headers. Then after I had all the parts, I began to realize that while I might gain 15% more power, my mileage and drive ability would suffer in equal or greater lengths. That's what led me to thinking that a very mild turbo setup would be the ideal way to go.

 

[andrew3408]

wow i didn't think i would start a war here.. the 170 in the valiant i own is fairly low miles it has 81,000 original miles on it.. and the build on wether it is a 170 or 225 is going to be several years down the road.. same with the complete rest. on it but i don't have a 225 it be nice to have one given to me like bill..lol the car probably won't get hot rod to much.. but i love the sound of a hopped up engine wether it is a slant 6 or a 340 which i am keen on thats what i had in my drag car back in the 90's which most guys thought it was a big block by the sound of it running.. it was a full body metal 73 plymouth duster which ran a best of 10.50 at 135 mph in the 1/4 mile.

 

[Bill Dedman]

wow i didn't think i would start a war here.. the 170 in the valiant i own is fairly low miles it has 81,000 original miles on it.. and the build on wether it is a 170 or 225 is going to be several years down the road.. same with the complete rest. on it but i don't have a 225 it be nice to have one given to me like bill..lol the car probably won't get hot rod to much.. but i love the sound of a hopped up engine wether it is a slant 6 or a 340 which i am keen on thats what i had in my drag car back in the 90's which most guys thought it was a big block by the sound of it running.. it was a full body metal 73 plymouth duster which ran a best of 10.50 at 135 mph in the 1/4 mile.

No "war"... just a well-meaning discussion of the best path to take.

The availability of 225 for little or no money make it seem to me, like a lot of time and money could be saved if 200 HP is all you want. Turbocharging one of these motors is time-consuming and fraught with all kinds of difficulties (but, well-worth it, in the case of the 225, I think.) Not so much when it comes to the little 170's because a N/A 225, which is far simpler and cheaper to get running, can make the required HP with only a fraction of the time/money spent on it. Turbocharging is a means to an end that works very well in certain cases, but not all, I think. But, if you don't mind the long and winding road to successful boost with your 170. then it may work for you. I am just ONE opininated, mouthy, individual who probably talks when he should be listening.... and, I apologize for that; that's just ME.ops:

It takes a lot of time, money, patience and commitment to successfully turbocharge a slant six of ANY size.... If you can avoid the difficulties involved and still get the job done (200hp) with a naturally-aspirated powerplant, I still think that is the way to go... Getting a different (size) engine might be a lot easier than forced induction on the one you already have..

Just some food for thought.:coffee2:

 

[vntned]

Same here, no war, just differing opinions! Being able to explain our different opinions without name calling and insulting one another is wonderful!

Bill, I applaud you and greatly appreciate the ability to have a debate without it turning into mudslinging immaturity! So many times do disagreements on forums become overblown and childish!

That being said, I intend on proving you wrong on this boosted 170 vs NA 225 thing in the hopefully not to distant future. Or at least giving it one hell of a try!

 

[RustyRatRod]

I think it could be argued that the 170 lends better to turbocharging because of the short stroke. Since the engine effectively spins faster, couldn't that lead to better cylinder filling thereby driving the turbo better? Just a question to ponder.

 

[nm9stheham]

Pressure pulses out of the exhaust are what gets the turbo spinning at lower flows and improves the way in which it comes on; hence, short duration cams, etc. But it there has been so much change and progress in the last 15 year or so in impeller design and tricks that just getting the right turbo can make up for all of that. I went from the standard 14G to 16G to 16G Super on my 2.6L Mitsu, and the throttle response of the 16G Super was an amazing improvement; the blade design and trimming was quite different for the Super version. I would be curious to know what /6 turbos are being used...... I may have to peruse the slantsix.org forum on that. The 16G variants would work fine on the 170, at least on the flow and boost levels; you would have plenty.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Pressure pulses out of the exhaust are what gets the turbo spinning at lower flows and improves the way in which it comes on; hence, short duration cams, etc. But it there has been so much change and progress in the last 15 year or so in impeller design and tricks that just getting the right turbo can make up for all of that. I went from the standard 14G to 16G to 16G Super on my 2.6L Mitsu, and the throttle response of the 16G Super was an amazing improvement; the blade design and trimming was quite different for the Super version. I would be curious to know what /6 turbos are being used...... I may have to peruse the slantsix.org forum on that. The 16G variants would work fine on the 170, at least on the flow and boost levels; you would have plenty.

Well duhhhh.......where do exhaust pressure pulses come from? The intake, hello? lol

 

[Bill Dedman]

Same here, no war, just differing opinions! Being able to explain our different opinions without name calling and insulting one another is wonderful!

Bill, I applaud you and greatly appreciate the ability to have a debate without it turning into mudslinging immaturity! So many times do disagreements on forums become overblown and childish!

That being said, I intend on proving you wrong on this boosted 170 vs NA 225 thing in the hopefully not to distant future. Or at least giving it one hell of a try!

Well, in 75 (almost 76) years, I should have learned SOMETHING about how to treat my fellow man... If I act immaturely at 75, it makes one wonder just when I am going to learn something about the proper way to act; I don't have another 25 years to get it right... lol!

I am not sure where you think I am coming from on this 170/turbo issue, but just let me say this: I agreee that theoretically, the 170- motor is ideal for turbocharging; it has the best bore/stroke ratio of any of the three engines, has no excessive piston-speed issues that the 225 has, has a cylinder head that fits the displacement better than any of the other two, and will stress the block less because of its short stroke (less leverage,) which should make the crank and mains live longer. As a candidate for turbocharging, it is the best choice among the three OEM sizes, no argument.

MY CONTENTION, is that as a street performer in the competitive venue of real-world performers, even as well as it runs, it will never be a contender to the extent that a 225 is, because it is simply too small. The 33% size-advantage the 225 has going in, is just too much of an advantage to be overcome by the smaller motor. If you build a 500hp engine, like Ryan Peterson or Tom Wolfe did, you'd need a 170 that put out 2.94 horsepower per cubic inch, almost 3... and I don't think that is going to happen. If, indeed, it DID happen, it would probably require over 7,000 rpm to get it done, and the valve train necessary to achieve coherent opening and closing at that speed, under boost, would be a project all its own...

The considerations of practicality begin to encroach on such a project. The two 500 hp 225's I mentioned employ a 5,500 rpm red-line... an rpm limit that demands very little in the way of hardware upgrades in the valve-train. 340 springs that are shimmed a bit, stock lifters and rockers work fine at that rpm.

Raise the ante to 7,000 for the 170, and the scenario changes drastically. All of a sudden, lubrication may become an issue... and spark demands may increase, exponentially... two areas the 225 doesn't seem to have to deal with.

Getting 500 HP out of a 170 on gas may be possible, but it's going to require a lot of thought, hardware, and RPM.

Getting it out of a 225 is difficult enough... Why make it any harder than it has to be???:banghead:

 

[vntned]

Very true! Go big or go home when it comes to all out power potential!

 

[nm9stheham]

Well duhhhh.......where do exhaust pressure pulses come from? The intake, hello? lol

Ya got me pal.....LOL

 

[Bill Dedman]

Very true! Go big or go home when it comes to all out power potential!

I'm glad we agree.

Additionally, the 225 is actually on the smallish side when compared with the Ford six (300 cubic inches) and the G.M. (292 cubes.) The only reason it can be competitive in this area is its apparent ability to withstand high levels of boost without damage. I'm not sure the other two can do that...

The AMC 240/258 motor is an unknown factor to me.... But, I'd bet it's a good one in relation to the strength issue. It comes with a lot bigger valves, to begin with, and ports to match, so not as much boost should be necessary to make significant (500?) horsepower .

I'm wondering whether the OEM fuel injection system could be modified with bigger injectors and a more powerful pump, to get rid of the problematic blow-thru carburetion we use on the slant six... I'm sure it would require a new computer, or at least, tweaking the one it came with...

I went with the slant six because Tom Wolfe and Ryan Patterson had already done it, and Tom was willing to help me with all the specifics... Thanks, Tom!!! And, there were no engine-swap problems to worry about (I REALLY LIKE the Valiant chassis engineering and the 904/A500 transmission package. Makes a sixties Falcon or Chevy II look downright Neanderthal, by comparison!)

Hard to beat a turbocharged slant six, done right!

 

[andrew3408]

well after 6 long years of sitting idle got the old valiant fired up!!! i also learned the gas guage on the dash doesn't work at all we both thought it was empty on fuel so i took over 5 gallons of fuel and dumped in the tank he(the original owner had some and started pouring his fuel in the about two mins later fuel was flowing back out of the neck of the car meaning it was full of fuel now since the gas guage doesn't work it must of been half full of old gas. but she is running now.. now got to get the master cly on so i can have brakes so i can get her to my home..

 

[Bill Dedman]

well after 6 long years of sitting idle got the old valiant fired up!!! i also learned the gas guage on the dash doesn't work at all we both thought it was empty on fuel so i took over 5 gallons of fuel and dumped in the tank he(the original owner had some and started pouring his fuel in the about two mins later fuel was flowing back out of the neck of the car meaning it was full of fuel now since the gas guage doesn't work it must of been half full of old gas. but she is running now.. now got to get the master cly on so i can have brakes so i can get her to my home..

Great! Now you have the option of selling the 170 for enough money to buy a complete 225, if you decide to go that route.

It's YOUR CAR... build it to suit yourself!:cheers:

and, good luck with it.... whatever you decide!

 

[Bill Dedman]

well after 6 long years of sitting idle got the old valiant fired up!!! i also learned the gas guage on the dash doesn't work at all we both thought it was empty on fuel so i took over 5 gallons of fuel and dumped in the tank he(the original owner had some and started pouring his fuel in the about two mins later fuel was flowing back out of the neck of the car meaning it was full of fuel now since the gas guage doesn't work it must of been half full of old gas. but she is running now.. now got to get the master cly on so i can have brakes so i can get her to my home..

Here is a picture of the aforementioned "PISHTA" J pipe.... Makes it possible to add a moderate performance turbo without welding on the exhaust manifold... so, cracking is usually avoided. Exhaust manifolds on slant sixes are prone to cracking. especially in cases where they have experienced the heat of welding...

 

[Bill Dedman]

Here is a picture of the aforementioned "PISHTA" J pipe.... Makes it possible to add a moderate performance turbo without welding on the exhaust manifold... so, cracking is usually avoided. Exhaust manifolds on slant sixes are prone to cracking. especially in cases where they have experienced the heat of welding...

That J-pipe avoids your having to build one of these....

 

[fstfish66]

Great! Now you have the option of selling the 170 for enough money to buy a complete 225, if you decide to go that route.

It's YOUR CAR... build it to suit yourself!:cheers:

and, good luck with it.... whatever you decide!

the split bumper looks great

 

[andrew3408]

i just read a story about a guy building a slant and the head he put 1.88 intake valves and 1.50 ex valves in the head and also had it milled .100 and ported and polished the head.. so how big of valves can you put in a slant 6 head?

 

[Bill Dedman]

the split bumper looks great

Thanks.... I didn't know what else to do...

But, I think I'll leave it off, completely; it just adds weight.... where I really don't need it.

Might get a fiberglass one... and, split it.:???:

 

[fstfish66]

Thanks.... I didn't know what else to do...

But, I think I'll leave it off, completely; it just adds weight.... where I really don't need it.

Might get a fiberglass one... and, split it.:???:

looks nicer on my opinion,,, probably adds some protection as welll

 

[Bill Dedman]

i just read a story about a guy building a slant and the head he put 1.88 intake valves and 1.50 ex valves in the head and also had it milled .100 and ported and polished the head.. so how big of valves can you put in a slant 6 head?

In a report about Steve Nitti's slant six Duster (supercharged,) it said that he had 2.02" intake valves and 1.5" exhaust valves. The report said that the cylinder walls had to be notched for clearance on the intakes even though the block was bored considerably... can't remember how much, but, it was a lot. Maybe, like .105"... dunno, exactly...

I think most people use either 318 valves or aftermarket 1.74" intakes and 1.5" exhausts. That's what my head has.

Hope this helps.

 

[Bill Dedman]

looks nicer on my opinion,,, probably adds some protection as welll

Well, thanks for the comments. If I do run a (split) bumper, it will definitely be a lightweight, fiberglass one... IF I can find one to buy.

This car needs all the help I can give it in the weight-distribution department (front/rear) because a 9"-wide tire is all that I can fit under the rear fender/wheel well, and I am too f**king old and lazy to start installing mini-tubs at this point.

It already has the battery in the trunk, a lightweight fiberglass hood, and CalTracs, so maybe it'll be okay. but you can never have enough traction.... IMHO, anyway.

I haven't had a chance to put it on the strip, yet (VHT-treated track,) so wish me luck; I like to leave at a 3,000rpm stall. Below that, the turbo doesn't spool enough for sufficient boost... leaves like an arthritic, 80-year-old on a bicycle...

Its complicated... :banghead:

 

[nm9stheham]

Is there anything supporting the turbo weight on that J pipe besides the pipe and the exhaust manifold? Ans is that a particular intercooler, Bill, or just a custom one?

 

[Bill Dedman]

Is there anything supporting the turbo weight on that J pipe besides the pipe and the exhaust manifold? Ans is that a particular intercooler, Bill, or just a custom one?

I can't answer the question about the support, but it varies with the user, I think. There are people on FABO who have built a support for the turbo, but I don't think all of them have... It's probably pretty easy to make one... your choice.

My intercooler is a Spearco, off-the-shelf unit; supposed to be good for 550 hp... way more than I am likely ever to need...

Thanks for asking!:blob: