DOES THE HDK SUSPENSION K-MEMBER HANDLE BETTER THAN A T-BAR SUSPENSION?

[HemiDenny]

Do you have hard data showing this?

come on man....please get up to speed, start on page 1. That is what this thread was meant to be about, at least until it turned into the "I luv torsion bars and nothing else " thread.

 

[HemiDenny]

It has much more to do with power to weight ratio and I am almost certain the 2012 BMW M3 has an advantage in that catagory against a 4 door b body big block mopar from the 70s. The mopar would have to make 650hp and I’m fairly sure that one doesn’t.

did you bother to watch the full clip ????? I didn't think so.

 

[72bluNblu]

I have several mount variables that drop the engine anywhere from 1/2" to 3/4" Fact is, almost impossible to accomplish with the OEM steering components to contend with. Maybe in your world that does not count as lowering the COG, but in mine it not only lowers the COG, but affords needed tunnel clearance for larger transmissions.

weight reduction calculations were apples to apples......HDK manual steer / no sway bar / no brakes w/ coil over package vs OEM manual steer/ no sway / no brakes w/ torsion bar. As fair a comparison I could make.....29.8 lbs if memory serves. All the other BS you threw out there could be done on either set up.

Denny, there are A LOT of ways to lower the CG. Like, I don't know, lowering the entire car? So what was your lowest CG height?

You never provide any numbers, which the rest of us would need to compare our cars to yours.

For example, I couldn't lower my engine another 3/4" because my headers would hit the ground before I ran out of suspension travel. So, since most of your customers are still running TTI's, Doug's, etc I don't see how having their entire car higher with a lower engine is CLEARLY going to lower their CG vs me having my entire car down at the same height as their engine. Lowest engine relative to bodywork does not necessarily win lowest CG.

I'd need custom headers to lower my engine much further. Since most of your customers aren't running custom headers from what I understand, it would mean their engines aren't lower than mine. So their cars are higher.

straw man?????

did you bother watching the video......

the remark comparing the 2 cars (6:15) was.....no replacement for displacement. He was NOT comparing suspensions by any means. The Mopar was faster because it has a big (long arm / stroker) motor

because they have less displacement (power)....it had nothing to do with the suspensions on either cars.

C'mon man. Seriously. I know you're not a road race or autoX guy, but even drag racers know that horsepower is meaningless unless you have the suspension to put it to the ground.

Yeah, I'm sure you can find a different track where the Beemer's would have an advantage over the large, heavy Hotchkis Taxi. But the fact that the guy that drives Beemer's on that same track every day can just hop in a big old heavy muscle car, like nothing he's ever driven before, and run a second a lap quicker should tell you it's not just horsepower. Yeah, he's a good driver to be able to adapt that fast. And yeah, the fact that a big block 4-door B body is on any track with corners and going faster than a Beemer should tell you the bar is pretty high for handling on that car.

He did say the BMWs are a full second a lap slower on similar tires.

Same driver, same tires, same track. And with a driver that has far more seat time in the Beemers.

Please point to where HDK makes the claim (you say all COC companies claim)....faster or better handling.

I know better.

Why, not even one page ago you were claiming that 30lbs off the nose and a lower CG could be considered a "handling advantage".

Of course you didn't prove you actually have a lower CG. The 30lbs off the nose in just suspension is true, but, yeah, if the Hotchkis Taxi is faster I think we have to agree that 30 lbs lighter doesn't necessarily mean a handling advantage.

 

[72bluNblu]

come on man....please get up to speed, start on page 1. That is what this thread was meant to be about, at least until it turned into the "I luv torsion bars and nothing else " thread.

But all we got were camber gain numbers. And they were worse than a nearly factory torsion bar suspension, until 2" extended ball joints were added for a minor improvement vs nearly bone stock. Data dried up after that...

 

[HemiDenny]

to close out the evening I will add.....

you guys are a lot more fun than "discussions" with my wife. I be cut off for at least a month by now.

 

[TT5.9mag]

come on man....please get up to speed, start on page 1. That is what this thread was meant to be about, at least until it turned into the "I luv torsion bars and nothing else " thread.

Read the title of the damn thread! Then please post data.

did you bother to watch the full clip ????? I didn't think so.

Yup. All of it, twice.

 

[HemiDenny]

Denny, there are A LOT of ways to lower the CG. Like, I don't know, lowering the entire car? So what was your lowest CG height?

You never provide any numbers, which the rest of us would need to compare our cars to yours.

For example, I couldn't lower my engine another 3/4" because my headers would hit the ground before I ran out of suspension travel. So, since most of your customers are still running TTI's, Doug's, etc I don't see how having their entire car higher with a lower engine is CLEARLY going to lower their CG vs me having my entire car down at the same height as their engine. Lowest engine relative to bodywork does not necessarily win lowest CG.

I'd need custom headers to lower my engine much further. Since most of your customers aren't running custom headers from what I understand, it would mean their engines aren't lower than mine. So their cars are higher.



C'mon man. Seriously. I know you're not a road race or autoX guy, but even drag racers know that horsepower is meaningless unless you have the suspension to put it to the ground.

Yeah, I'm sure you can find a different track where the Beemer's would have an advantage over the large, heavy Hotchkis Taxi. But the fact that the guy that drives Beemer's on that same track every day can just hop in a big old heavy muscle car, like nothing he's ever driven before, and run a second a lap quicker should tell you it's not just horsepower. Yeah, he's a good driver to be able to adapt that fast. And yeah, the fact that a big block 4-door B body is on any track with corners and going faster than a Beemer should tell you the bar is pretty high for handling on that car.



Same driver, same tires, same track. And with a driver that has far more seat time in the Beemers.



Why, not even one page ago you were claiming that 30lbs off the nose and a lower CG could be considered a "handling advantage".

Of course you didn't prove you actually have a lower CG. The 30lbs off the nose in just suspension is true, but, yeah, if the Hotchkis Taxi is faster I think we have to agree that 30 lbs lighter doesn't necessarily mean a handling advantage.

BS....the driver was clearly referencing the displacement of the stroker engine.......and pray tell, why would you want a stroker engine with large displacement on a small tight course? to power out of the corners and get that tank up to speed. If you wanna really go fast, you might want to get out of graphs and roll centers discussion and grab some big displacement torque.....just my 10,000 foot view, others may vary.

 

[NC Engine Builder]

I thought the whole thread was a discussion about him giving a suspension kit to some guy, hoping to get data, about handling? Now he says he never made any claims of having superior handling. I even offered to let him race one of my torsion bar equipped cars, but he wanted none of that. So I guess it's back to, it "looks cool" and his customers love it.

 

[TT5.9mag]

Pissing contests are easily won or lost when science shows up.

 

[NC Engine Builder]

BS....the driver was clearly referencing the displacement of the stroker engine.......and pray tell, why would you want a stroker engine with large displacement on a small tight course? to power out of the corners and get that tank up to speed. If you wanna really go fast, you might want to get out of graphs and roll centers discussion and grab some big displacement torque.....just my 10,000 foot view, others may vary.

You really should stop while your ahead brother!

 

[Super-Cuda]

He did say the BMWs are a full second a lap slower on similar tires.

Maybe I missed something watching the video.

Where are the specs on the BMW?

4 6 or 8cyl?

Manual or automatic?

Hp rating?

Rear end gears?

The "taxi" has a 451 aluminum headed 500 plus stroker engine with a Keisler 5-speed with a low 1st gear, and a 3:23 sure grip. Not to mention every aftermarket suspension trick in the book of Mopar upgrades from Hotchkis including TVS front t-bar suspension and custom rear leaf springs, AR engineering front Viper caliper conversion, Scarebird rear disk brake conversion, bilsteens on all 4 corners, firm feel modified steering box, and frame connectors.

The BMW is no match for this professionally purpose built track car car if it is stock.

 

[HemiDenny]

Read the title of the damn thread! Then please post data.

Yup. All of it, twice.

Racer Joe has given his results, it's his thread. I just supplied the equipment for examination to a guy that wasn't a COC card carrying member.

End result.....for various reasons, IMO, I concluded he liked it.

what did you deem from the clip at the 6:10 to 6:30 mark?.....hint: he was faster in the 4-door Mopar BECAUSE it has bottom end torque (big arm / stoker and large displacement over the BWM). I never heard him mention the torsion bars suspension?.....you????

 

[Super-Cuda]

Denny I am 4 seconds (that’s a lot) faster in my Miata with a 1.8 liter engine that makes 140hp around Fontana than I am in a Camaro SS with an LS3 that makes 485 hp. It’s not about displacement. I had hundreds of laps around that place in many different cars.

Your Miata , stock weighs about 2100-2300 lbs. Camaro add at least 1000lbs.

Plus. weight balance in a Miata is approx 50-50

Camaro is nose heavy.

I would think your entry speeds into a turn would be much faster and exits much quicker easily gaining you your 4 seconds.

 

[HemiDenny]

You really should stop while your ahead brother!

it is time to end my BSing / bench racing with my hot rod buddies. I am looking forward to seeing all the cool stuff you made.

 

[Mopar_Taxi_Guy]

that my friend.....could be a tuffy. If desired alignment specs can be achieved with either set up, how could one prove one is better than the other?

Is it tough because the evidence and data doesn't exist?

however....

apples to apples, manual steer to manual steer, the HDK coil over package is 30lbs lighter than the OEM equivalent. a power rack and pinion vs power steering box offers even more weight reduction. Less front end weight could be considered a "handling advantage"

with a rack and pinion (even power) the engine / driveline is often lowered in the cradle. Lowering the center of gravity could be considered a "handling advantage"

HDK offers the ability to move the track width inward / outward. Not even considering that adjustment may allow wider tires, a wider track width could be considered a "handling
advantage.

if you work on the your car, or are attempting to stuff a physically much larger power plant in, the absence of a steering box, drag link, steering arm , idler /pitman arm and torsion bars, especially the larger ones, while it likely would not be considered a handling advantage.......sure makes it a lot easier to work on.

What does any of this have to do with the question I asked?

 

[fishmens67]

The "taxi" has a 451 aluminum headed 500 plus stroker engine with a Keisler 5-speed with a low 1st gear, and a 3:23 sure grip.

Probably wouldn't need an aftermarket suspension to win a few road courses with this engine combo, small blocks, 4 and six poppers are already at a massive disadvantage out of the corners and uphill.
A couple beers and this car I'd put you all on the trailer. lol

 

[fishmens67]

Oh and we'll do 1/8 and 1/4 mile too. lol

 

[TT5.9mag]

Maybe I missed something watching the video.

Where are the specs on the BMW?

4 6 or 8cyl?

Manual or automatic?

Hp rating?

Rear end gears?

The "taxi" has a 451 aluminum headed 500 plus stroker engine with a Keisler 5-speed with a low 1st gear, and a 3:23 sure grip. Not to mention every aftermarket suspension trick in the book of Mopar upgrades from Hotchkis including TVS front t-bar suspension and custom rear leaf springs, AR engineering front Viper caliper conversion, Scarebird rear disk brake conversion, bilsteens on all 4 corners, firm feel modified steering box, and frame connectors.

The BMW is no match for this professionally purpose built track car car if it is stock.

Professional Purpose built track car? Ha ha ha ha. You make me laugh sad clown. All of the **** on that car can be bought over the counter. In fact I did. I have a complete hotchkis tvs kit for my dart I have yet to install. Bought it 15 years ago. Custom leaf springs? You mean hotchkis leafs? lol again. And if you think a 2012 M3 is anything but a fuckin track weapon you need to seriously reconsider things. That’s why tire rack uses them for testing!! They are a significant benchmark.

 

[TT5.9mag]

Your Miata , stock weighs about 2100-2300 lbs. Camaro add at least 1000lbs.

Plus. weight balance in a Miata is approx 50-50

Camaro is nose heavy.

I would think your entry speeds into a turn would be much faster and exits much quicker easily gaining you your 4 seconds.

I know. All you’re doing is making my point. It ain’t about power.

 

[RustyRatRod]

The pic


it appears I am not up to date and if they do now, good on them.

That's what it "says".....but you know how that goes. It wouldn't make much sense to put the ball joint in the stock position on an aftermarket control arm, but stranger things have happened.

 

[TT5.9mag]

And if you think a 2012 M3 is anything but a fuckin track weapon you need to seriously reconsider things.

@Super-Cuda ask me how I know. Go ahead ask me.

Mine isn’t even an M. It’s an Msport diesel and it mops the floor with a lot of cars at the track.

 

[HemiDenny]

Is it tough because the evidence and data doesn't exist?



What does any of this have to do with the question I asked?

you got a bitchin 4-door ride-along taxi.....I'll leave it at that.

 

[Super-Cuda]

I know. All you’re doing is making my point. It ain’t about power.

Yup! No disagreement there.

 

[Super-Cuda]

Professional Purpose built track car? Ha ha ha ha. You make me laugh sad clown. All of the **** on that car can be bought over the counter. In fact I did. I have a complete hotchkis tvs kit for my dart I have yet to install. Bought it 15 years ago. Custom leaf springs? You mean hotchkis leafs? lol again. And if you think a 2012 M3 is anything but a fuckin track weapon you need to seriously reconsider things. That’s why tire rack uses them for testing!! They are a significant benchmark.

Well, I never saw any specs posted on the BMW, especially the M3 model, that's why I asked.
Also, from reading the articles on the "taxi" , I saw several companies were involved with the build, including Hotchkiss . No issue with the fact that all the parts can be bought.
Who assembles them and their level of expertise is another.

@Super-Cuda ask me how I know. Go ahead ask me.

View attachment 1716447266
Mine isn’t even an M. It’s an Msport diesel and it mops the floor with a lot of cars at the track.

I know the car well. It performs.


Ask me how I know...

 

[Super-Cuda]

It has much more to do with power to weight ratio and I am almost certain the 2012 BMW M3 has an advantage in that catagory against a 4 door b body big block mopar from the 70s. The mopar would have to make 650hp and I’m fairly sure that one doesn’t.

525 to the crank as specified by the engine builder.

A quick search and I found the following:

1970 Satellite 4-door 3371 lbs curb weight

2012 3 Series w/diesel. 3406 lbs curb weight.

Not a lot of difference.

BMW has a perfect weight distribution 50%-50%

Satellite is 54%-45%