DOES THE HDK SUSPENSION K-MEMBER HANDLE BETTER THAN A T-BAR SUSPENSION?

[racerjoe]

I'm confused, how can you have a legitimate organized competition, with different weights and tires? That's not how ANY real sanctioned competition is done.

All of the Holley event grand champion events have very relaxed rules except the tire tread wear. Nearly everyone that does these events have cars built to either SCCA CAMT or optima standards. I would imagine the rule pushing is more relevant at LS fest than at Moparty. There just isn't anyone building $300K Mopars to compete at the top level of Optima. This would entail lots of carbon fiber, repositioned engine for better weight balance, 315+ tires, and tons of HP. I'd say David in the Superbee is the closest with all Speedtech suspension and 315 Hoosiers square. However, he's running a stock 6.4 and we all know a 70 Superbee isn't light! Guess what, he beat me on autox by .5 seconds. Then, I beat a Challenger with 315 square on torsion bars. Tight rules kill classes for vintage cars, hence the birth of CAM in SCCA.
So if you think you can come and dominate with a 2800lb, 800HP car on 335s, I welcome it. I'd love to see someone build an over the top Mopar. It's not all about the car, it's how you use it to it's maximum capability.
Let's put things into prospective to compare LS Fest and Moparty. The fastest drag pass at LS Fest this year set a record. He ran 9.88 on a 275 wide RE71RS 200TW tire. This was the first time someone broke into the 9s for grand champion. At moparty, the faster GC drag pass was low 11s. I ran a 12.2 but have enough MPH to run a high 11 and I would have tried for it but my thermostat stuck so I only did one run on Saturday. They had lots of glue on the starting line that day.

 

[DionR]

How different are the AutoX and 3S courses, year to year?

What would it take to compete with the late model iron? Looking at past results, there have been plenty of new cars that are slower than the Vintage class, but it looks like the top dog is usually a late model entry, outside of the Chenoweth car. But there appears to have been some pretty fast Challengers and even an SRT4 in past years. Curious what it would take for an A-Body to run with those?

 

[racerjoe]

How different are the AutoX and 3S courses, year to year?

What would it take to compete with the late model iron? Looking at past results, there have been plenty of new cars that are slower than the Vintage class, but it looks like the top dog is usually a late model entry, outside of the Chenoweth car. But there appears to have been some pretty fast Challengers and even an SRT4 in past years. Curious what it would take for an A-Body to run with those?

The autox course was different this year. The previous 4 years I went, it was the same. The 3S is always the same. Can't change a straight line with a 180 much.
The late model class could use more competition. Eric Peachy has won a few years in a row in his Viper. There was another Viper there this year, but he wasn't even close to Eric's pace - he's an incredible driver. A couple years ago there was a CAM prepped modern challenger that was fast. He hasn't been back. I think he sold the car. Almost all the other late models are regular challengers with the only mods being tires. No chance at beating a Viper. There was a NEON there this year as well. Of course they do well on the autox, but they get donkey stomped on the drag strip.
What would it take to beat the viper, another viper, or a lightweight new challenger with lots of HP and a good driver.
What would it take for an A-Body to win the overall? First and foremost a great driver. A better driver would certainly drive my car better than I can. Is it enough to go 3 seconds faster on the autox? I doubt it. I'd say something lighter than mine, certainly something much lower and built to specifically autox with wide tires all around. It would also need enough HP to run very low 11s or 10s. Since we have to run on the 200TW tire, more HP the better because you won't get a good launch and will need to rely on the HP to make up time down track.

 

[Trojmn]

How different are the AutoX and 3S courses, year to year?

probably not too much. You can only do so much in that limit space, keep the noobs from getting lost/putting it into a wall or ditch and keep the flow so you can get sometimes 3 cars on track at once.
The cone boxes where painted and it was told the same course as LS fest. So those results would be comparitive.

 

[DionR]

The autox course was different this year. The previous 4 years I went, it was the same. The 3S is always the same. Can't change a straight line with a 180 much.
The late model class could use more competition. Eric Peachy has won a few years in a row in his Viper. There was another Viper there this year, but he wasn't even close to Eric's pace - he's an incredible driver. A couple years ago there was a CAM prepped modern challenger that was fast. He hasn't been back. I think he sold the car. Almost all the other late models are regular challengers with the only mods being tires. No chance at beating a Viper. There was a NEON there this year as well. Of course they do well on the autox, but they get donkey stomped on the drag strip.
What would it take to beat the viper, another viper, or a lightweight new challenger with lots of HP and a good driver.
What would it take for an A-Body to win the overall? First and foremost a great driver. A better driver would certainly drive my car better than I can. Is it enough to go 3 seconds faster on the autox? I doubt it. I'd say something lighter than mine, certainly something much lower and built to specifically autox with wide tires all around. It would also need enough HP to run very low 11s or 10s. Since we have to run on the 200TW tire, more HP the better because you won't get a good launch and will need to rely on the HP to make up time down track.

Yeah, the Vipers are kind of different breed, I should have excluded them when I asked the question. Looks like there have been some faster Challengers, specifically the CAM prepped one but a REWB that was a surprise (to me) since they are what 4400-4600 pounds? But I am making assumptions that it wasn't lightened. Plus several others.

The Chenoweth Challenger was only a second off Eric's Viper a couple of years ago, so maybe it isn't impossible?

 

[72bluNblu]

you guys are a hoot.

Denny I don't think anyone is trying to diminish Tim's or your accomplishments. It's awesome that Tim won the grand champion at Moparty. And the fact he did it with your suspension should absolutely make you proud.

But that doesn't mean that talking about the competition itself isn't relevant. It's a points total for 3 different events, only 1 of which is based mostly on handling.

And unless I'm mistaken, Tim's suspension, while being an HDK, has been optimized and tuned probably more than pretty much any other HDK out there. Which is not a dig on you or the HDK! It shows your system is tunable to a level that is competitive at those events, as long as the rest of the car is up to the competition.

Ultimately though, pretty much ANY suspension system can be tuned and optimized to be competitive at events like Moparty. And Tim's winning definitely shows your suspension is capable, but it is not by itself proof that it's a better set up than an optimized torsion bar suspension.

For years every time I said anything about the torsion bars systems being on the fastest cars at these competitions, all I heard was "yeah but the driver". Well, yah, but the driver. And the horsepower. And the tires. Yes, the suspension has to get you there. But yeah, it's not the only factor.

All of the Holley event grand champion events have very relaxed rules except the tire tread wear. Nearly everyone that does these events have cars built to either SCCA CAMT or optima standards. I would imagine the rule pushing is more relevant at LS fest than at Moparty. There just isn't anyone building $300K Mopars to compete at the top level of Optima. This would entail lots of carbon fiber, repositioned engine for better weight balance, 315+ tires, and tons of HP. I'd say David in the Superbee is the closest with all Speedtech suspension and 315 Hoosiers square. However, he's running a stock 6.4 and we all know a 70 Superbee isn't light! Guess what, he beat me on autox by .5 seconds. Then, I beat a Challenger with 315 square on torsion bars. Tight rules kill classes for vintage cars, hence the birth of CAM in SCCA.
So if you think you can come and dominate with a 2800lb, 800HP car on 335s, I welcome it. I'd love to see someone build an over the top Mopar. It's not all about the car, it's how you use it to it's maximum capability.
Let's put things into prospective to compare LS Fest and Moparty. The fastest drag pass at LS Fest this year set a record. He ran 9.88 on a 275 wide RE71RS 200TW tire. This was the first time someone broke into the 9s for grand champion. At moparty, the faster GC drag pass was low 11s. I ran a 12.2 but have enough MPH to run a high 11 and I would have tried for it but my thermostat stuck so I only did one run on Saturday. They had lots of glue on the starting line that day.

Thanks for sharing your insight on this. Those events have certainly gotten quite competitive, it's crazy how much money and horsepower are in those cars, especially in Optima.

I mean even running low 11's on a 200tw DOT legal tire is pretty darn impressive. It's quite an accomplishment to be able to win there with that level of competition.

Eye opening too, I'd love to go and have fun but realistically if I wanted to be competitive I'd need minimum another 100 hp, and probably more like 200.

 

[DionR]

And unless I'm mistaken, Tim's suspension, while being an HDK, has been optimized and tuned probably more than pretty much any other HDK out there. Which is not a dig on you or the HDK! It shows your system is tunable to a level that is competitive at those events, as long as the rest of the car is up to the competition.

Don't forget the custom splined swaybar Tim built.

 

[72bluNblu]

Don't forget the custom splined swaybar Tim built.

Yeah that thing is bad ***!

But I’d definitely need some laps under my belt before I commit to spending that kinda cash when my Hellwig seems to do just fine, at least for my current use of the car.

 

[racerjoe]

Denny I don't think anyone is trying to diminish Tim's or your accomplishments. It's awesome that Tim won the grand champion at Moparty. And the fact he did it with your suspension should absolutely make you proud.

But that doesn't mean that talking about the competition itself isn't relevant. It's a points total for 3 different events, only 1 of which is based mostly on handling.

And unless I'm mistaken, Tim's suspension, while being an HDK, has been optimized and tuned probably more than pretty much any other HDK out there. Which is not a dig on you or the HDK! It shows your system is tunable to a level that is competitive at those events, as long as the rest of the car is up to the competition.

Ultimately though, pretty much ANY suspension system can be tuned and optimized to be competitive at events like Moparty. And Tim's winning definitely shows your suspension is capable, but it is not by itself proof that it's a better set up than an optimized torsion bar suspension.

For years every time I said anything about the torsion bars systems being on the fastest cars at these competitions, all I heard was "yeah but the driver". Well, yah, but the driver. And the horsepower. And the tires. Yes, the suspension has to get you there. But yeah, it's not the only factor.



Thanks for sharing your insight on this. Those events have certainly gotten quite competitive, it's crazy how much money and horsepower are in those cars, especially in Optima.

I mean even running low 11's on a 200tw DOT legal tire is pretty darn impressive. It's quite an accomplishment to be able to win there with that level of competition.

Eye opening too, I'd love to go and have fun but realistically if I wanted to be competitive I'd need minimum another 100 hp, and probably more like 200.

You don't think the 3S has anything to do with handling? Take your car from a standing start and go 70mph hour and figure out how much you need to brake to take a short radius 180 degree turn. The better your car handles, the faster you can take that turn. In my opinion, the 3S is harder to master than the autocross. It tests your acceleration, which is mostly throttle control, turning handling, and lastly braking. It's really easy to screw up and the slightest mistakes affect timing.


I realize you live quite far away, so the likelihood of making the journey across the US for the event is unlikely. However, I wouldn't worry about HP. There are plenty of guys there having just as much fun with stock magnum motors. Heck there was a bone stock 70 Duster there that looked like a barn find. What makes this event great is people are there to have fun and not ruin the weekend with aggressive competition.

To be clear, the materials to make my sway bar were less than $200 and Denny offered to make one for me. He has the capability, but I wanted to do it.

 

[75slant6]

Eye opening too, I'd love to go and have fun but realistically if I wanted to be competitive I'd need minimum another 100 hp, and probably more like 200.

I wouldn’t be so sure about that. Nate Evan’s runs a 5.9 magnum with the only upgrade being a 224/230 cam. I rode with him for one run and that thing HAULS!

 

[JBrian]

Since I have the torsion bar equivalent of Tim's car, and we've raced together at Moparty, and in the CAM-T SCCA Challenge, I'll gladly give some pros and cons of both setups. Before I do, I'd like to say that Denny approached Tim a couple of years ago because Tim's Duster had been competing for a few years, and Tim had proven himself to be an up and coming driver. God knows he's a better driver than I am! Denny basically said break it if you can, and tell me what need to be improved. Not any other shop that I'm aware of has had enough confidence in their product to roll the dice on that proposition with someone outside the company, Denny did.

And hey, who wouldn't take him up on that offer? If you've never autocrossed, you cannot fathom the lateral loads put on the car and suspension. It literally twists and shakes everything lose. Before I installed Bergman Autocraft sliders on my rear spring, the rear inside sidewall of my tires, which are 1.5" from the inner fender were rubbing when I autocrossed with 200TW Falkin RT66's! My safety inspection that I perform once a month during autocross season includes all suspension, braking, motor, trans mounts, hubs etc. I know I've pulled over 1.2Gs on course per SoloStorm software. Tim's car, with bigger tires and being 200LBS lighter will be higher.

What does HDK offer to the ProTouring community that's not available with torsion bars beside the oblivious advantage of header clearance?

Lowered stance without screwing up suspension geometry. I cannot lower my car an more than I have. My LCAs have the short bump stops with 1.08" torsion bars. It's a good combination on course, it's a huge compromise on the road. I bottom out.

Steering, the Borgeson box is a fantastic up grade on the street. It gives actual feedback and is quick. On the course, it's slow. It could be 30-50% faster.

Adjustable spring rates. It's certainly possible to change torsion bars, but it's easier with the HDK system.

Denny's didn't just build something to look at. He runs the same suspension in his GEN II Hemi Duster and Tim street drives, autocrosses and drag races his car.

Overall, on a typical autocross course, not much time will separate HDK and a fully boxed K-member with a Borgenson steering box. But the HDK suspension can get you lower without running out of travel. On the street or road course, additional suspense travel will make the difference between being safe and winning.

 

[JBrian]

I wouldn’t be so sure about that. Nate Evan’s runs a 5.9 magnum with the only upgrade being a 224/230 cam. I rode with him for one run and that thing HAULS!

You should have ridden with Tim or I, We both run 10MPH quicker in the quarter mile than Nate.

 

[Mopar_Taxi_Guy]

Lowered stance without screwing up suspension geometry. I cannot lower my car an more than I have. My LCAs have the short bump stops with 1.08" torsion bars. It's a good combination on course, it's a huge compromise on the road. I bottom out.

Steering, the Borgeson box is a fantastic up grade on the street. It gives actual feedback and is quick. On the course, it's slow. It could be 30-50% faster.

What is bottoming out?

What is the steering ratio difference?

 

[75slant6]

You should have ridden with Tim or I, We both run 10MPH quicker in the quarter mile than Nate.

Yeah I really should have ridden with one of y’all. Maybe next year I’ll have shrunk a little with age to where I can fit in your passenger seat.

 

[72bluNblu]

You don't think the 3S has anything to do with handling? Take your car from a standing start and go 70mph hour and figure out how much you need to brake to take a short radius 180 degree turn. The better your car handles, the faster you can take that turn. In my opinion, the 3S is harder to master than the autocross. It tests your acceleration, which is mostly throttle control, turning handling, and lastly braking. It's really easy to screw up and the slightest mistakes affect timing.

I didn't say it didn't have anything to do with handling, I just said it had A LOT to do with horsepower. Because if you can't get up to 70 in that space you're going to lose a ton of time. And if you can't get going fast enough then turning the corner isn't as big of an issue.

Yes, you need to have decent handling to make the corner, but if you don't have the horsepower or the brakes it won't be a win. The 3S does challenge the whole car, but, it's a very horsepower dependent event.

I realize you live quite far away, so the likelihood of making the journey across the US for the event is unlikely. However, I wouldn't worry about HP. There are plenty of guys there having just as much fun with stock magnum motors. Heck there was a bone stock 70 Duster there that looked like a barn find. What makes this event great is people are there to have fun and not ruin the weekend with aggressive competition.

Yeah I don't know that I'll be making Moparty any time soon. I'd need more than a week to make that a viable trip. I love driving my car but I'd hate to show up and feel like I was out of it because I wasn't in the HP ballpark.

To be clear, the materials to make my sway bar were less than $200 and Denny offered to make one for me. He has the capability, but I wanted to do it.

I'll have to refresh my memory, I thought you ended up with more than that into it! That wouldn't be bad.

Since I have the torsion bar equivalent of Tim's car, and we've raced together at Moparty, and in the CAM-T SCCA Challenge, I'll gladly give some pros and cons of both setups. Before I do, I'd like to say that Denny approached Tim a couple of years ago because Tim's Duster had been competing for a few years, and Tim had proven himself to be an up and coming driver. God knows he's a better driver than I am! Denny basically said break it if you can, and tell me what need to be improved. Not any other shop that I'm aware of has had enough confidence in their product to roll the dice on that proposition with someone outside the company, Denny did.

And hey, who wouldn't take him up on that offer? If you've never autocrossed, you cannot fathom the lateral loads put on the car and suspension. It literally twists and shakes everything lose. Before I installed Bergman Autocraft sliders on my rear spring, the rear inside sidewall of my tires, which are 1.5" from the inner fender were rubbing when I autocrossed with 200TW Falkin RT66's! My safety inspection that I perform once a month during autocross season includes all suspension, braking, motor, trans mounts, hubs etc. I know I've pulled over 1.2Gs on course per SoloStorm software. Tim's car, with bigger tires and being 200LBS lighter will be higher.

What does HDK offer to the ProTouring community that's not available with torsion bars beside the oblivious advantage of header clearance?

Lowered stance without screwing up suspension geometry. I cannot lower my car an more than I have. My LCAs have the short bump stops with 1.08" torsion bars. It's a good combination on course, it's a huge compromise on the road. I bottom out.

Steering, the Borgeson box is a fantastic up grade on the street. It gives actual feedback and is quick. On the course, it's slow. It could be 30-50% faster.

Adjustable spring rates. It's certainly possible to change torsion bars, but it's easier with the HDK system.

Denny's didn't just build something to look at. He runs the same suspension in his GEN II Hemi Duster and Tim street drives, autocrosses and drag races his car.

Overall, on a typical autocross course, not much time will separate HDK and a fully boxed K-member with a Borgenson steering box. But the HDK suspension can get you lower without running out of travel. On the street or road course, additional suspense travel will make the difference between being safe and winning.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

You're still running the factory LCA's correct? With 1.08's that would definitely limit your ability to lower the car.

The QA1 tubular LCA's give almost a full inch of additional travel clearance, so on my car with 1.12's running lower isn't a big issue. I occasionally bottom the suspension, but it's fairly infrequent. My issue now is that at full compression my wheel kisses the top of the inner fender, so I'm body limited not suspension limited. My Doug's D453's are only 3.5" off the ground at the flange, so I can't go much lower anyway before the exhaust bottoms out before the suspension does. I probably only have about 1" or maybe less of clearance there at full compression.

The '73/74 B-body LCA conversion that Firm Feel used to sell gives even more compression travel than the QA1 tubular LCA's, but because of the exhaust and inner fender those would have to be dialed back with a taller bumpstop.

The new Falken's are very impressive, with my old 615k's I wasn't getting any rubbing in the back with my 1/2" spring offset and 295/40/18's. Now with a new set of RT660's I'm getting a bit of rubbing on the inner wheel well again. I moved a step stiffer on my Hellwig rear sway bar, but I'm still getting a touch of rubbing when I'm pushing through the mountain roads on the way home with the trunk full from my Costco trip.

 

[TT5.9mag]

trunk full from my Costco trip

Dude take it easy on the rotisserie chickens, for the love of god.

 

[HemiDenny]

Since I have the torsion bar equivalent of Tim's car, and we've raced together at Moparty, and in the CAM-T SCCA Challenge, I'll gladly give some pros and cons of both setups. Before I do, I'd like to say that Denny approached Tim a couple of years ago because Tim's Duster had been competing for a few years, and Tim had proven himself to be an up and coming driver. God knows he's a better driver than I am! Denny basically said break it if you can, and tell me what need to be improved. Not any other shop that I'm aware of has had enough confidence in their product to roll the dice on that proposition with someone outside the company, Denny did.

And hey, who wouldn't take him up on that offer? If you've never autocrossed, you cannot fathom the lateral loads put on the car and suspension. It literally twists and shakes everything lose. Before I installed Bergman Autocraft sliders on my rear spring, the rear inside sidewall of my tires, which are 1.5" from the inner fender were rubbing when I autocrossed with 200TW Falkin RT66's! My safety inspection that I perform once a month during autocross season includes all suspension, braking, motor, trans mounts, hubs etc. I know I've pulled over 1.2Gs on course per SoloStorm software. Tim's car, with bigger tires and being 200LBS lighter will be higher.

What does HDK offer to the ProTouring community that's not available with torsion bars beside the oblivious advantage of header clearance?

Lowered stance without screwing up suspension geometry. I cannot lower my car an more than I have. My LCAs have the short bump stops with 1.08" torsion bars. It's a good combination on course, it's a huge compromise on the road. I bottom out.

Steering, the Borgeson box is a fantastic up grade on the street. It gives actual feedback and is quick. On the course, it's slow. It could be 30-50% faster.

Adjustable spring rates. It's certainly possible to change torsion bars, but it's easier with the HDK system.

Denny's didn't just build something to look at. He runs the same suspension in his GEN II Hemi Duster and Tim street drives, autocrosses and drag races his car.

Overall, on a typical autocross course, not much time will separate HDK and a fully boxed K-member with a Borgenson steering box. But the HDK suspension can get you lower without running out of travel. On the street or road course, additional suspense travel will make the difference between being safe and winning.

Thanks Brian.....you get it. I will no longer consider you just another pretty face.

Again, congratulations Tim on your MoParty win and thank you for your trust in HDK. Your competitors better look out, something tells me your hard work is just beginning to pay off.

Denny
HDK

 

[72bluNblu]

Dude take it easy on the rotisserie chickens, for the love of god.

Lol!

It adds up quick! 40 lb bag of dog food, 42 lbs of cat litter, case of water, etc, next thing you know there's 200lbs in the trunk. Lowers the tail end nicely though!

 

[DionR]

Since I have the torsion bar equivalent of Tim's car, and we've raced together at Moparty, and in the CAM-T SCCA Challenge, I'll gladly give some pros and cons of both setups. Before I do, I'd like to say that Denny approached Tim a couple of years ago because Tim's Duster had been competing for a few years, and Tim had proven himself to be an up and coming driver. God knows he's a better driver than I am! Denny basically said break it if you can, and tell me what need to be improved. Not any other shop that I'm aware of has had enough confidence in their product to roll the dice on that proposition with someone outside the company, Denny did.

Frankly, I think it was more to get someone to do some development work for him. He doesn't seem to understand suspension geometry based on the past comments so he needed the help. Add that since he makes no claims for better handling, it was a low risk deal if it didn't turn out well.

Lowered stance without screwing up suspension geometry. I cannot lower my car an more than I have. My LCAs have the short bump stops with 1.08" torsion bars. It's a good combination on course, it's a huge compromise on the road. I bottom out.

But far from maximized. What shocks are you running? Pretty sure Tim has double adjustable, pretty big jump if you are running RCD's or something.

Steering, the Borgeson box is a fantastic up grade on the street. It gives actual feedback and is quick. On the course, it's slow. It could be 30-50% faster.

That would be a 7-10:1 ratio. I doubt you could drive on the road with something like that, sneeze and you would be in the oncoming traffic. Even if the rack Tim runs is a 12:1, that's only 15% faster.

Denny's didn't just build something to look at. He runs the same suspension in his GEN II Hemi Duster...

Denny autocrosses his car? News to me. I drive my car on the street, too, but according to Denny I just talk so maybe I do more than he gives me credit for?

 

[RustyRatRod]

Congrats to Tim on his win! That's fantastic! I don't have a dog in the hunt on the stupid argument, but I am super glad to see an aftermarket suspension totally different from the stock Mopar stuff do well and actually win! This gives Mopar guys more winning choices. The GM crowd has always had the most aftermarket support and I'm super glad to see Mopar guys getting it too. Nice work Denny and Tim!

 

[HemiDenny]

Frankly, I think it was more to get someone to do some development work for him. He doesn't seem to understand suspension geometry based on the past comments so he needed the help. Add that since he makes no claims for better handling, it was a low risk deal if it didn't turn out well.

Denny autocrosses his car? News to me. I drive my car on the street, too, but according to Denny I just talk so maybe I do more than he gives me credit for?

and then there is always that railbird that will NEVER get it. Do yourself a favor, grab hold of your ears and pull real hard..... then re-read Brians post.

 

[DionR]

and then there is always that railbird that will NEVER get it. Do yourself a favor, grab hold of your ears and pull real hard..... then re-read Brians post.

Funny thing is, you are as much a railbird as I am. Pot, meet kettle.

Maybe it is time for you to get off the rail and build an autocross car of your own. Just for fun of course. Funds/location don't allow me to do anything like that, but you are bucks up and in the right area. And then at least one of us could stop just being a talker. Go start being a doer Denny, show us how it's done.

 

[TT5.9mag]

and then there is always that railbird that will NEVER get it. Do yourself a favor, grab hold of your ears and pull real hard..... then re-read Brians post.

Laughable.

 

[HemiDenny]

Funny thing is, you are as much a railbird as I am. Pot, meet kettle.

Maybe it is time for you to get off the rail and build an autocross car of your own. Just for fun of course. Funds/location don't allow me to do anything like that, but you are bucks up and in the right area. And then at least one of us could stop just being a talker. Go start being a doer Denny, show us how it's done.

I have ran across some clueless idiots in my like....but you win the prize.

 

[TT5.9mag]

I have meet some clueless idiots in my like....but you win the prize.

Character building.