DOES THE HDK SUSPENSION K-MEMBER HANDLE BETTER THAN A T-BAR SUSPENSION?

[NC Engine Builder]

I am impressed with your hardware and even more impressed you can keep you hot head cool long enough to win a main.

I'll bet you are a hoot to watch in the pits

Pretty calm in the pits, that was one key. We once changed the whole 8 3/4 center chunk between practices, in 13 minutes. That was a regular A body 8 3/4 and not a floater. Won that feature too

 

[junkyardhero]

No problem, just looking for proof to debunk an article that I believed back up what I remember my experiences to be with the larger spindle.

I follow you and appreciate your extensive experience and knowledge

I'm not always right (ask my wife) If wrong, I admit it and try not to make the same mistake twice.(again....ask my wife)

Gotta admit, I do not read all the forums. Hard enough to keep up here, especially with all the luv.

I do see the error i made.

I misread and thought the A body spindle was included in the text listed of what is the same as the B body....but in reality, the later A body only looks like the B body version.

My bad. Please forgive me. I'll try to do better but I wouldn't count on it. I'm old.

Denny

it's all good man.

thank you for the kind words, i appreciate it. nobody is perfect and we're all prone to mistakes or mis-remembering things, especially over the years. lord knows i'm rarely right myself.

while i'd love for there to be a definitive article that lays bare the rather foggy nature of factory suspension (primarily the spindles) corralling all of that data would be an undertaking that is frankly above my desire and pay grade.

and again, i'm not trying to detract from one school of thought or another (lord knows i've got my own issues there), i just wanted any of the information presented to be correct and not let anybody be operating with bad information.

i'm certainly no expert, but i've been around it a lot and the only reason i know for certain is from having my hands in and on these things, doing the work.

 

[HemiDenny]

Pretty calm in the pits, that was one key. We once changed the whole 8 3/4 center chunk between practices, in 13 minutes. That was a regular A body 8 3/4 and not a floater. Won that feature too

Now your talkin'

 

[JBrian]

I just started autocrossing in August of 2023, just once before MoParty 2023 when my setup was a complete mess. I really didn't get the car sorted out until the beginning of this year. I don't recall where in this post anyone that autocrosses had any disparging words about short track, dirt track, ovel, road course drivers or cars.
However, it did come up at our local STL-SCCA that a lot of the road course drivers look down on autocross as a joke. So it's not surprising that you feel the same way. Since, overall we have a small contingent of Mopar racers that are not dragracers, it's pretty sad to see the infighting develop here as well. The best thung about autocross is the low cost of entrance into the sport. Drivers don't do it for the money, as at most it's contingency money. We do it because it's fun and accessible.
So NC Engine Builder, best of luck out there. You might consider not attacking the people that are or want to be on your side. If you don't care, well good luck anyway

 

[racerjoe]

@racerjoe @JBrian did you guys drive your cars to Moparty, and if so on what tires? Reason I ask is the 300 mile trip to a place for me to AutoX has me thinking about the best way to do it. Trailering isn’t an option for me, but it feels like 300 miles on 200tw tires would be a mistake. How do you guys do it?

For a while a 200TW tire was all I had and drove it all over. Maybe not the best in torrential rain but no problems otherwise. I’m approaching 9,000 miles on the car in its pro touring arrangement. Most of those miles are on a 200TW.

 

[HemiDenny]

it's all good man.

thank you for the kind words, i appreciate it. nobody is perfect and we're all prone to mistakes or mis-remembering things, especially over the years. lord knows i'm rarely right myself.

while i'd love for there to be a definitive article that lays bare the rather foggy nature of factory suspension (primarily the spindles) corralling all of that data would be an undertaking that is frankly above my desire and pay grade.

and again, i'm not trying to detract from one school of thought or another (lord knows i've got my own issues there), i just wanted any of the information presented to be correct and not let anybody be operating with bad information.

i'm certainly no expert, but i've been around it a lot and the only reason i know for certain is from having my hands in and on these things, doing the work.

Just going with my limited experience with OEM from when I built Butch's street ride 5 years ago

In the assortment of parts I had the larger spindles/ Wiloods. Wheels stuck out too far to lower the car the way I envisioned.

Swapped to 9" drum spindles / Wilwoods / same lowers / HDK small ball joint uppers and I distinctly remember gaining 7/8" each side. Gave me enough room to drop the nose and turn without clearance issues.

Oh well....

 

[junkyardhero]

Just going with my limited experience with OEM from when I built Butch's street ride 5 years ago

In the assortment of parts I had the larger spindles/ Wiloods. Wheels stuck out too far to lower the car the way I envisioned.

Swapped to 9" drum spindles / Wilwoods / same lowers / HDK small ball joint uppers and I distinctly remember gaining 7/8" each side. Gave me enough room to drop the nose and turn without clearance issues.

the width difference between the spindles is marginal, the real culprit is the wilwood hub. a lot of the aftermarket stuff pokes 'em out a bit far if you're looking for a lower ride height.

for reference all the a-body lowers are the same.

 

[HemiDenny]

the width difference between the spindles is marginal, the real culprit is the wilwood hub. a lot of the aftermarket stuff pokes 'em out a bit far if you're looking for a lower ride height.

for reference all the a-body lowers are the same.

I agree to a point, older Wilwoods do put the hub out an extra 3/4", I have both older and current Wilwood hubs on the shelf. That was the first thing I did was verify I had the latest set-up. Believe me, It would have been easier to just buy the newer brake package for the later spindle.

I have all (three or four) A- body spindles at my shop (needed for building tubular UCAs), I will dig them out for comparison.

all A body lowers the same....hey, I got that one right!

 

[RustyRatRod]

I still look at it as garage talk.

We always had (the same) one or two actually working on anything.....the rest (railbirds / woulda, coulda, shoulda experts) were always chiming in with their chit

About the only way to stop the BS is tell them to drag THEIR stuff out for comparison. (show us your credentials....sound familiar??)

Then comes the woulda, coulda, shoulda BS excuses.

You know better than most I luv a good discussion and I believe you have called me an asshole or an idiot a few times.....mostly (I hope) to my face but always with a smile.....you know, garage talk.

How are you gettin anything done old man talkin on the internet all day? Heck, what if I have a sack of money hit me in the head? You won't have time to make me up a kit!

 

[HemiDenny]

How are you gettin anything done old man talkin on the internet all day? Heck, what if I have a sack of money hit me in the head? You won't have time to make me up a kit!

It's Saturday and I'm at both shops today....new one checking out the interior skin install and at the old one (across town), port matching a Hemi tunnel ram. When you are having fun, it is never work. I port a little, answer a customer call, check the 'puter, read a post....have a laugh....give a smart azz response, then back to porting.

thanks for asking about life on the glory trail.

 

[RustyRatRod]

It's Saturday and I'm at both shops today....new one checking out the interior skin install and at the old one (across town), port matching a Hemi tunnel ram. When you are having fun, it is never work. I port a little, answer a customer call, check the 'puter, read a post....have a laugh....give a smart azz response, then back to porting.

thanks for asking about life on the glory trail.

Chop chop Hop Sing!

 

[NC Engine Builder]

I just started autocrossing in August of 2023, just once before MoParty 2023 when my setup was a complete mess. I really didn't get the car sorted out until the beginning of this year. I don't recall where in this post anyone that autocrosses had any disparging words about short track, dirt track, ovel, road course drivers or cars.
However, it did come up at our local STL-SCCA that a lot of the road course drivers look down on autocross as a joke. So it's not surprising that you feel the same way. Since, overall we have a small contingent of Mopar racers that are not dragracers, it's pretty sad to see the infighting develop here as well. The best thung about autocross is the low cost of entrance into the sport. Drivers don't do it for the money, as at most it's contingency money. We do it because it's fun and accessible.
So NC Engine Builder, best of luck out there. You might consider not attacking the people that are or want to be on your side. If you don't care, well good luck anyway

I'm not attacking anyone, I have numerous times said his kit is top notch, the welding and fabrication is awesome. What I WONT say, is that is is better handling wise than a torsion bar suspension, because its not.

 

[HemiDenny]

I'm not attacking anyone, I have numerous times said his kit is top notch, the welding and fabrication is awesome. What I WONT say, is that is is better handling wise than a torsion bar suspension, because its not.

cough / cough..... it kinda appears that it does now, don't it, I believe he bested ALL the torsion bar cars. Tim said you are welcome to come complete if you like. WTF.... bring your trophies!

BTW....is it me?, the camera angle? or does Tim's trophy appear to be bigger than yours??

(stay calm, have a laugh with us...were just bustin' balls in our internet garage on a slow Saturday night)

 

[72bluNblu]

cough / cough..... it kinda appears that it does now, don't it, I believe he bested ALL the torsion bar cars. Tim said you are welcome to come complete if you like. WTF.... bring your trophies!

BTW....is it me?, the camera angle? or does Tim's trophy appear to be bigger than yours??

(stay calm, have a laugh with us...were just bustin' balls in our internet garage on a slow Saturday night)

View attachment 1716457724

So if we stack up all the wins from torsion bar cars over coil over converted cars what does that look like? Because it’s been awhile now.

I mean I think Tim is great, but are you saying he wins every competition from here on out?

Seems to me every time this has come up in the past it’s always been “well so and so is a really great driver it’s more about that than the suspension”.

But one trophy in and now it’s about the suspension? A great weekend does not the superior system make. Gonna looks silly if he loses to a torsion bar cars ever again talking like that.

Ps- I do not use extended ball joints as you stated earlier.

 

[HemiDenny]

So if we stack up all the wins from torsion bar cars over coil over converted cars what does that look like? Because it’s been awhile now.

I mean I think Tim is great, but are you saying he wins every competition from here on out?

Seems to me every time this has come up in the past it’s always been “well so and so is a really great driver it’s more about that than the suspension”.

But one trophy in and now it’s about the suspension? A great weekend does not the superior system make. Gonna looks silly if he loses to a torsion bar cars ever again talking like that.

Ps- I do not use extended ball joints as you stated earlier.

no mention of EVERY win....just the last one. (@Moparty). the ONLY ones that mentions a superior suspension in this thread are you OEM guys. My point thru out the 32 pages is the HDK COC CAN do everything the OEM can do....with other distinct advantages.

Maybe we could...(or couldn't) agree the title in hindsight would have been better if it said....Can an COC suspension handle every bit as good as a T-bar suspension (while providing other benefits?)

sorry, I thought I read where you installed longer / extended stud upper control arm ball joints, maybe that was someone else. Are you adjusting / tuning your roll center or only talking about it because Tim adjusted / fine tuned (added 1" over standard HDK package) for his specific application (tire diameter / ride height / spindle)?

after all....for all the experts (and those that think I do not know anything about front end geometry) how would you tune / change the roll center on an OEM suspension if your ride height (maybe lowered) / tire diameter (bigger or smaller diameter tire) changed....let's say more than an inch??. I'll answer first.......only ways I can think of a) raise (can't go any lower) the upper ball joint pivot, all other chassis pivots that effect roll center are pretty much set and non adjustable, b) heat / bend the steering arm up / down (but watch out for effecting bump steer). Maybe / big maybe move the hub in / out but I can't imagine it would change significantly. Other than that, you get what you got.

 

[Mopar_Taxi_Guy]

One thing I think a bunch of ya'll talking about my initial roll center being terrible is I chose to use the spindle I have due to the ability to run the beefy corvette hub. It's a standard height M2 spindle. At the time, my knowledge of suspension dynamics was lack luster. I didn't know a short spindle would be such a detriment. However, I stand by my choice because I like the hub vs. the old school bearing setup I would have gotten with the TALL Wilwood spindle. I do think that TALL spindle would have prevented some of my issues early on, but I was ignorant at that point in time. So what have I gained, besides a giant trophy? I've given myself an education on suspension dynamics because I was determined to find the right ADJUSTMENTS to make it the best performing suspension the car has ever had. Knowledge is king and you should never stop learning. I enjoy helping people when they come to me for advice. I wouldn't be able to help if I didn't have real world experiences and the knowledge gained over the last year.

I can't express how badly I want the naysayers to get their car on an autocross, wherever you live. See how you compare to the fast guys out there. It isn't easy in a new car let alone something that's 50 years old. And I would love it even more for them to come jump in the car at any of the events I do. You will be holding on to something and pressing a brake pedal that doesn't exist. I don't care how many hills or curvy roads you have near your home. You aren't driving your car like you will on an autocross. At best I'd say 5/10 on the street and you would only know this if you actually did it.

Oh I love the "I don't drive around traffic cones in a parking lot, I'm an oval track racer". Again, come on out. I bet you get lost on course. Many road racers and oval track racers have said autocross is more complex than big tracks. Sure you don't get the door to door adrenaline, but who cares. Things are happening so fast you wouldn't want a car next to you. It's also a known fact that autocrossers make better road course racers. But this is a whole different argument that I'm sure will go off the rails.

Tim. What spindle are you currently using?

 

[racerjoe]

Tim. What spindle are you currently using?

Classic Performance M2 that accepts the Corvette hub. 2" lower ride height version. There are plenty of GM versions out there that use the corvette hub and are taller than this one. I'd like to try one of those one day, but spending that kind of money just to try something isn't really in the budget. Preferably, I'd love to try the Speedetech A/F/X forged aluminum. It's an inch taller than what I have, but I think the axle centerline is lower than what I need, which would raise ride height. Ride Tech is also making spindles that accept the corvette and mustang hubs.

 

[DionR]

Ride Tech is also making spindles that accept the corvette and mustang hubs.

A mustang hub would potentially allow for wheel speed sensors and ABS. All the Corvette hubs I have seen that keep the 5x4.5 bolt pattern don't have the tone ring.

I guess someone could go with a GM bolt pattern if they wanted Corvette hubs with tone rings so they could add ABS. Not like you can tell walking up to the car what the wheel bolt pattern is. And wheel options might be better.

 

[DionR]

There was a NEON there this year as well. Of course they do well on the autox, but they get donkey stomped on the drag strip.

Finishing up watchin the Drag Week live stream from Friday today and noticed a Moparty sticker on the windshield of an '87 Charger GLHS. Looks like he ran last year and was .5 seconds behind you in the AutoX, but based on his Drag Week average this year of 11.8770 would have been .85 faster than your time last year had he made a drag strip run.

There was also a Neon SRT4 at Drag Week that ran a best of 11.580@112.59. Plus a couple of Horizon's that averaged mid 10's.

Not arguing that most FWD cars get donkey stomped at the strip, just pointing out that I wouldn't sleep on all of them or you might get surprised.

Have to admit, I'm impressed with the performance of the SRT4 that was there the last two years. Looking at last years results, he was faster on the AutoX, equaled you on the 3S and got donkey stopped at the strip. Only have AutoX time so far from this year and it looks like a virtual tie there. If that car had the Drag Week engine package, I wonder how it would have done. Apples to oranges, either way.

Different classes, not a point on handling, just an observation about FWD Mopars.

 

[racerjoe]

Finishing up watchin the Drag Week live stream from Friday today and noticed a Moparty sticker on the windshield of an '87 Charger GLHS. Looks like he ran last year and was .5 seconds behind you in the AutoX, but based on his Drag Week average this year of 11.8770 would have been .85 faster than your time last year had he made a drag strip run.

There was also a Neon SRT4 at Drag Week that ran a best of 11.580@112.59. Plus a couple of Horizon's that averaged mid 10's.

Not arguing that most FWD cars get donkey stomped at the strip, just pointing out that I wouldn't sleep on all of them or you might get surprised.

Have to admit, I'm impressed with the performance of the SRT4 that was there the last two years. Looking at last years results, he was faster on the AutoX, equaled you on the 3S and got donkey stopped at the strip. Only have AutoX time so far from this year and it looks like a virtual tie there. If that car had the Drag Week engine package, I wonder how it would have done. Apples to oranges, either way.

Different classes, not a point on handling, just an observation about FWD Mopars.

I'd imagine they aren't racing on an autocross tire at Drag Week. We drag race at Moparty on the same tire we autocross with. My car would run 11s on a drag tire. I'm not saying those cars can't be fast, they just haven't had any show up. I think it would be awesome if a big power neon showed up and challenged Eric. I bet he would say the same.
The guy in the Neon was .017 seconds behind me in auox this year. He was just behind me in the overall standing. He had faster times in the 3S. ABS must be nice. Again, my 3S driving capabilities need work.

 

[DionR]

I'd imagine they aren't racing on an autocross tire at Drag Week. We drag race at Moparty on the same tire we autocross with. My car would run 11s on a drag tire. I'm not saying those cars can't be fast, they just haven't had any show up. I think it would be awesome if a big power neon showed up and challenged Eric. I bet he would say the same.
The guy in the Neon was .017 seconds behind me in auox this year. He was just behind me in the overall standing. He had faster times in the 3S. ABS must be nice. Again, my 3S driving capabilities need work.

Absolutely. The 10 second Horizons were (I think) both on a drag specific setup with "big" slicks on the front and skinnies on the back. Certainly the SRT4 had drag radials as well, but didn't look to be as drag specific as the Horizons were. So I agree those times aren't representative of the times something like that might run at Moparty.

Hard to say what the Charger GHLS I mentioned would have run last year. He was there, but didn't run on the drag strip or the 3S challenge.

I doubt an SRT4 will ever challenger a Viper. I was more impressed with how even they could possibly be even with an A-Body.

But I were to got (back) to FWD, I would probably build something thing like this instead of a Neon.

 

[75slant6]

Doyle’s Neon the past 2 years is also a mostly stock car. He’s running coilovers on it and he said engine wise is a bone stock engine with a cold air intake. Those Neons do very well at what they were designed to do.

 

[HPP]

If you want to really start playing around with geometry and changes spindle heights have on roll centers, get some dedicated race spindles.

These are from a road race (thus symmetrical) ARCA car set against a stock Mopar spindle. Since many of these oval track units utilize the Mopar style ball joint, these are a good match for our ball joints. These spindles do utilize the same lower ball joint as the upper and have integrated steering arms, so you would need to use late B lower control arms. They also are from the era of 15" wheels, so they only utilize a 12.12" rotor. Adapting a larger 13" unit would require modification of the caliper mounting brackets, but that is no big deal for a good welder/machinist.

 

[BergmanAutoCraft]

If you want to really start playing around with geometry and changes spindle heights have on roll centers, get some dedicated race spindles.

These are from a road race (thus symmetrical) ARCA car set against a stock Mopar spindle. Since many of these oval track units utilize the Mopar style ball joint, these are a good match for our ball joints. These spindles do utilize the same lower ball joint as the upper and have integrated steering arms, so you would need to use late B lower control arms. They also are from the era of 15" wheels, so they only utilize a 12.12" rotor. Adapting a larger 13" unit would require modification of the caliper mounting brackets, but that is no big deal for a good welder/machinist.

View attachment 1716460130

View attachment 1716460131

I'd like to see an F body spindle in there too for comparison

 

[HPP]

I'd love to, but I'm all outta F spindles. If anyone would like to sell me a pair cheap, I'd be happy to include them in the layout. They are only .375 taller than the stock spindle pictured, so they wouldn't be significantly different, but it would look different as the stock spindle I have in that photo is a drum brake unit