Dtm primer question.

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That's a great right up! I guess 100 extra bucks is pretty good insurance. Lol do you think it would be ok for the engine bay to just use regular 2k primer then I can buy epoxy and do it right on the rest of the car later when I save up more money? And the just not even fool with the dtm primer?
 
Just use epoxy honestly and get coverage. Can go back to it anytime.

I wouldn’t bother doing anything until I had the products needed but that’s me
 
Dicer said:
@D-Rocket all the way. Epoxy is the only primer I would use in my book as a first coat. I use two heavy coats and block sand, then two coats of high build, then block sand again and again....Epoxy is tuff stuff had to use a course paper to block sand, high build is easy to sand, this is when its starts to look pretty......and you know you doing it right.

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Thanks bud. Is that Nason good epoxy? Do they have a good 2k primer also?
 
So I’m gonna jump in...Everyone that says put a dtm epoxy over bare steel are dead on. PPG never recommends self etch before epoxy. Go with PPG vibrance series primer surfacer VP2057. It is a dtm epoxy high build that barely shrinks when fully cured, its a new product that hot rod guys are going crazy about. Don’t try to pinch pennies on the primer stage because it’s the foundation for your paint job. Just saying. Look up the info on ppgrefinish.com. I’ve used it twice now and it changed my world. Hope this helps.
 
I was recommended the same thing over their dp90 by my ppg paint store guy. He spoke highly of it.
 
The better the product, the less labor required in general. Look up what the pro body guys will say about filler. The high priced stuff is easier on them!! We all get caught up in cost of everything right, Me too! We will say why pay $80/ gal for filler when we can get stuff that is "pretty " good for $35. There is a difference.
Shrinkage, that is a big key, filler or build primers. Me I can not afford the best of the best, so I sand and respray and sand and respray, and after I figure it all out, I would have been just about as cheap with the best product in the long run.
Any place you can clean and prime and paint even with a heavy equipment enamel, LIKE inside the trunk extensions, Inside rockers if given the chance, inside the front fenders, inside the DOORS, is well worth the effort.
I personally get best results if I am not going to do the whole job at one time, to use dtm epoxy, and them come back over that with 2k urethane primer until I can finish the job.
There are many ways to skin a cat.
 
My original plan was to just do a cheap lacquer and single stage enamel job the whole thing was gonna cost 160 bucks. My car is just a backyard project I dont have a booth or even a good compressor I have a couple hf hvlp guns so I was thinking why spend a crap ton of money on a paint job that's more than likely gonna have bugs and dirt in it anyways. But I changed my mind and decided since I'm putting in the time to at least spend the money and do a decent bc/cc urathane paint job. The price keeps tallying up lol I think I'm gonna try that 5 star primer I have read positive reviews it says dtm so even if it requires sanding sand paper is cheaper than buying 2 gallons of epoxy and a 2k on top. Thank you all for your help I have learned alot
 
The vp2050 is the way because it offers excellent sand ability and is dtm and barely shrinks. Slam 2-3 coats with 15 minute flash in between coats. First few swipes over the top to remove its semi gloss look and it sands like butter. You may even be able to skip the 2k primer surfacer that is urethane based. I’m gonna lay down dp50 over raw steel then once the body work is done over the epoxy I’m going to slam some vp2050 as my surfacer. Let us know how it goes.
 
Robert Corrigan said:
The vp2050 is the way because it offers excellent sand ability and is dtm and barely shrinks. Slam 2-3 coats with 15 minute flash in between coats. First few swipes over the top to remove its semi gloss look and it sands like butter. You may even be able to skip the 2k primer surfacer that is urethane based. I’m gonna lay down dp50 over raw steel then once the body work is done over the epoxy I’m going to slam some vp2050 as my surfacer. Let us know how it goes.
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I looked that up it looks very similar to the stuff I'm looking at just the good brand Haha kind of a hybrid epoxy, high build, sealer how much does a gallon of that run?
 
I remember that the cost was lower then I had originally anticipated but I don’t have a price yet. The problem with the lesser name brand stuff is that ppg and axalta have a standard and when a product doesn’t reach a quality control standard the product is sold to the smaller companies and rebadged and sold as a cheaper alternative. Save your money on the basecoat color by using a nason or shopline product. Then spend huge money on the clear because that offers uv protection and locks everything down from failing. Some clears last a year others 15-20 years and then the awesome stuff is lifetime.
 
You won't need that much primer if you're only doing the engine bay right now. And if the engine bay is in good shape(not needing any bodywork, not all scraped up) you don't really need the 2k primer. A quart of SPI epoxy and a quart of activator is less than a $100. You could spray a couple of coats of epoxy and go straight to topcoat with no sanding. With two sprayable quarts, you will probably have a bunch left over. Unlike some other epoxies, the SPI stuff sands pretty well, so if there are any issues you could sand them out. On my duster's engine bay I used Cromabase f6 basecoat with SPI's epoxy, 2k primer and clear.

duster 4-28-18 015.JPG
 
D-Rocket said:
I personally would never spray 2k high build primer on bare metal. Even if it says you can I wouldnt.
You don't need to use both etching primer and epoxy. Its an either or thing. Depending on surface prep mostly.
I tend to use epoxy more than etching primer on most projects because it acts as a sealer and has good build as well.
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TOTALLY, 100% agree. I always use epoxy on bare metal first.
 
forphorty said:
You won't need that much primer if you're only doing the engine bay right now. And if the engine bay is in good shape(not needing any bodywork, not all scraped up) you don't really need the 2k primer. A quart of SPI epoxy and a quart of activator is less than a $100. You could spray a couple of coats of epoxy and go straight to topcoat with no sanding. With two sprayable quarts, you will probably have a bunch left over. Unlike some other epoxies, the SPI stuff sands pretty well, so if there are any issues you could sand them out. On my duster's engine bay I used Cromabase f6 basecoat with SPI's epoxy, 2k primer and clear.

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That is actually a very good idea. I could just buy a quart now and then I could buy more. So you can paint you base coat(color) directly on epoxy without a 2k primer?
 
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dartfreak75 said:
That is actually a very good idea. I could just buy a quart now and then I could buy more. So you can paint you base coat(color) directly on epoxy without a 2k primer?
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Re-read the previous posts. Starting to go in circles here. No offense.

Some of the super high end restorations they only use the epoxy then base/clear. Takes extra time but these are concourse restorations. $50k paint jobs.

One more time in caps. SPI EPOXY!!!! Or try the vp2050. You won’t go wrong. 2 sprayable quarts is plenty. That’s what I’m ordering for my 68 dart engine bay.
 
daves66valiant said:
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Re-read the previous posts. Starting to go in circles here. No offense.

Some of the super high end restorations they only use the epoxy then base/clear. Takes extra time but these are concourse restorations. $50k paint jobs.

One more time in caps. SPI EPOXY!!!! You won’t go wrong. 2 sprayable quarts is plenty. That’s what I’m ordering for my 68 dart engine bay.
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No offence taken I was just following up on that other guys post I believe that you are correct and that way will work flawlessly. Just more than one way to skin a cat! I'm looking for the most economical but yet still affective way. I did alot of reading last night and even Kevin tetz a professional painter done 1000s if not 100000s of cars said it's best to use epoxy before 2k but not its not necessary on a driver. He said 2k primer will adhere to bare metal just not as good as epoxy. And I think that the 5star dtm primer in my original post will fit the bill. If my paint flies off going down the road i will say you told me so! Haha
 
Another thing to know:
Self etching primers are intended for smooth bare metal, not for sandblasted metal.
Self etching primers should never be sprayed over sandblasted metal. Once sandblasted, the steel is slightly porous, and will retain some of the acid in the self etching primer. This can cause problems with adhesion and rust too. Epoxy primer over sandblasted metal only.
Self etching primers are a lazy mans way of avoiding the metal prep stage. A one size fits all product that when used right, does work, but really isn't the best choice.
When you sand steel, especially with finer grits, it gets smooth and shiny. Epoxy primer sticks and seals better than anything else, but shiny, smooth metal should really be etched with Metal Prep acid, rinsed to neutralize it, and then have epoxy primer sprayed on. The Metal Prep dulls the surface, cleans and preps it by adding tooth to the metal. Epoxy primers will bond better to the Metal Prepped surface plus it helps avoid corrosion. The factory did it this way.
Do not Metal Prep sandblasted steel either, for the same reason self etching primers should not be used in sandblasted steel.
 
FM3 Dart said:
Another thing to know:
Self etching primers are intended for smooth bare metal, not for sandblasted metal.
Self etching primers should never be sprayed over sandblasted metal. Once sandblasted, the steel is slightly porous, and will retain some of the acid in the self etching primer. This can cause problems with adhesion and rust too. Epoxy primer over sandblasted metal only.
Self etching primers are a lazy mans way of avoiding the metal prep stage. A one size fits all product that when used right, does work, but really isn't the best choice.
When you sand steel, especially with finer grits, it gets smooth and shiny. Epoxy primer sticks and seals better than anything else, but shiny, smooth metal should really be etched with Metal Prep acid, rinsed to neutralize it, and then have epoxy primer sprayed on. The Metal Prep dulls the surface, cleans and preps it by adding tooth to the metal. Epoxy primers will bond better to the Metal Prepped surface plus it helps avoid corrosion. The factory did it this way.
Do not Metal Prep sandblasted steel either, for the same reason self etching primers should not be used in sandblasted steel.
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Thank you that is very helpful information!! Greatly appreciated.
 
FM3 Dart gives some good info. Pro auto paints companies have ha products called "metal cleaner", and " metal prep" for decades. I am sure reading the info on the use thereof would be very useful. Self etch and epoxy primers are different ducks and their usage depends on how and what.

Many times it is recommends by the pro's ( I am NOT), to use all the products from the same co. for obvious reasons.

Also study the difference ( and there IS) between metal "cleaners" and rust inhibitors.

LIke said by others before, BE SAFE, these chemicals can be deadly. You will not know you are allergic to them before it is too late. I wish the car clubs would spend some of their $$$ on a fresh air suit for its members to borrow, share.
 
barbee6043 said:
FM3 Dart gives some good info. Pro auto paints companies have ha products called "metal cleaner", and " metal prep" for decades. I am sure reading the info on the use thereof would be very useful. Self etch and epoxy primers are different ducks and their usage depends on how and what.

Many times it is recommends by the pro's ( I am NOT), to use all the products from the same co. for obvious reasons.

Also study the difference ( and there IS) between metal "cleaners" and rust inhibitors.

LIke said by others before, BE SAFE, these chemicals can be deadly. You will not know you are allergic to them before it is too late. I wish the car clubs would spend some of their $$$ on a fresh air suit for its members to borrow, share.
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Yea I am concerned about that also. I had no idea about the icos or whatever it is called until I was reading another forum and I completely changed my mind and decided to use enamel paint. Then I started to research it some more and decided I would go ahead with it and just be extremely careful. I have a 3m respirator I am gonna buy new filters for it. What is the best filter for chemical products?
 
dartfreak75 said:
Yea I am concerned about that also. I had no idea about the icos or whatever it is called until I was reading another forum and I completely changed my mind and decided to use enamel paint. Then I started to research it some more and decided I would go ahead with it and just be extremely careful. I have a 3m respirator I am gonna buy new filters for it. What is the best filter for chemical products?
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Back in the 70's I bought used steel horse/stock trailers and had them sandblasted and painted them with what is know n as alkyd enamel, NO hardner. Painting outside. Then I got some acrylic enamel added hardner and painted a trailer with it.. It did not hit me till 24 hrs later. It felt like I was running a high fever, but I was not. Really knocked the **** out of me.
I still paint but should not. But at age 70 something will kill me right? I use the good 3m respirators for organic vapors. BUT as stated before the only real safeguard is a fresh air system !!!!!!!! The stuff will also be absorbed thru your eye.

Some people paint and has no "observe" effect. Some people die. Pro s use a paint booth for a reason. Downdraft pulls away a lot of the vapors. Not just because it keeps the dust out of your paint!

I am not trying to be an alarmist. Just be aware. And Round Up, read up on it.
 
barbee6043 said:
Back in the 70's I bought used steel horse/stock trailers and had them sandblasted and painted them with what is know n as alkyd enamel, NO hardner. Painting outside. Then I got some acrylic enamel added hardner and painted a trailer with it.. It did not hit me till 24 hrs later. It felt like I was running a high fever, but I was not. Really knocked the **** out of me.
I still paint but should not. But at age 70 something will kill me right? I use the good 3m respirators for organic vapors. BUT as stated before the only real safeguard is a fresh air system !!!!!!!! The stuff will also be absorbed thru your eye.

Some people paint and has no "observe" effect. Some people die. Pro s use a paint booth for a reason. Downdraft pulls away a lot of the vapors. Not just because it keeps the dust out of your paint!

I am not trying to be an alarmist. Just be aware. And Round Up, read up on it.
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Yea man I have read alot of the horror stories and it scares the hell out of me. I'm gonna get a good paint suit and googles and gloves and all the ppe! I was talking to a guy at work about it he just build a VW buggie he said he painted his in his basement with just a regular mask no gloves still and the metallic on his hands and wrists from spraying the day before. I said man you better be careful that **** will kill you. He seems fines lol but I'm with you I'm too young to die from painting a freaking car. I'm most definitely taking all the precautions I'm even gonna shave my beard. Which is a huge deal to me btw Haha
 
Another thing that I don't has been mentioned on here regarding self etching primer.
Because self etching primer has an acid in it, you must not put polyester fillers or primers over top of it.
The acid in self etching primer reacts with polyester based products and can cause grief.
Same goes with Metal Prepping steel. Do not put polyester filler or primer on metal prepped steel, unless you have sealed it first with epoxy primer.
 
FM3 Dart said:
Another thing that I don't has been mentioned on here regarding self etching primer.
Because self etching primer has an acid in it, you must not put polyester fillers or primers over top of it.
The acid in self etching primer reacts with polyester based products and can cause grief.
Same goes with Metal Prepping steel. Do not put polyester filler or primer on metal prepped steel, unless you have sealed it first with epoxy primer.
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That is very true. I have mentioned using Ospho to clean metal, and that it can react to any primer that also is acid based. I had a hood once, it had lots of surface rust/pitting. I DA -ed it, used a big wire cup on the right angle grinder on it, LOTS of pitting! I put a good coat of Ospho ( phosphoric acid sol), let it dry over nite next after noon I used a foam brush to apply heavy coat of Rusteolum enamel, just to what would happen. I wrinkled it places, After it was totally dry, and couple months later, tried to da it off, I could not dent it!!! Had no shine but...... the acid reacted no doubt with the enamel. It was still adhering well 2 yr later, and still DULL! but it was not rusting.
Epoxy primer is great stuff, on clean bare metal and as a sealer, I think.
 
barbee6043 said:
That is very true. I have mentioned using Ospho to clean metal, and that it can react to any primer that also is acid based. I had a hood once, it had lots of surface rust/pitting. I DA -ed it, used a big wire cup on the right angle grinder on it, LOTS of pitting! I put a good coat of Ospho ( phosphoric acid sol), let it dry over nite next after noon I used a foam brush to apply heavy coat of Rusteolum enamel, just to what would happen. I wrinkled it places, After it was totally dry, and couple months later, tried to da it off, I could not dent it!!! Had no shine but...... the acid reacted no doubt with the enamel. It was still adhering well 2 yr later, and still DULL! but it was not rusting.
Epoxy primer is great stuff, on clean bare metal and as a sealer, I think.
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I use ospho on gun metal before applying cerakote.
 
PocketAces said:
Ditto on the SPI recommendation. Their epoxy is awesome to work with. It spays nice and sands nice. I used red oxide epoxy as a base coat, did body work on top, and sealed the filler with more epoxy. Red Oxide is what the factory used although nobody will see it. On top of the red epoxy I sprayed SPI's gray regular build primer, which they say sprays like a high build. The advantage there is that when you block the gray primer, you can stop when you start to see the red and avoid going through to bare metal or filler. Their clear is really good too and a bargain.

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Agree. We have had great results with SPI. Their tech info on the epoxy primer says you can only use Ospho as a rust treatment, if you need one, and we have done that with good results. We will continue sanding to bare metal, then Ospho, then SPI epoxy primer. https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/8ced3e_b2286fdce9b249da92a7462b7c6af093.pdf
Also, when you call their tech line, you get the company owner.
 
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