Electronic Vs. Points

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Tell him he needs the 'high horsepower points' and re-package some Accel points with a $49.00 price tag.....LOL I raced on points for about 15 years with no issues. But, it makes little sense these days except for purely original cars.
 
I don't understand his argument, but I do understand points, and choose them every time over electronic ignition.
Why? Because set properly and maintained, they will do everything an electronic setup will, and do it with fewer components and question marks when issues arise.
I base this on years of back to back comparisons on street cars. Years of tuning Top Fuel Dragsters and Funny Cars which used a single set of breaker points to trigger their mags ( this was right up to the late 90s)
Why points in the nitro cars? Because the environment was too harsh for any electronic trigger to be considered reliable enough.
Some years ago, Car Craft did an awesome ignition shootout between a stock single point, an HEI and some aftermarket unit...don't remember which one.
Guess which ignition made higher peak numbers at a higher RPM.
 
whitepunkonnitro said:
Guess which ignition made higher peak numbers at a higher RPM.
Click to expand...

I think you might find that that has changed, and by the way I learned a long time ago not to believe everything in magazines.

I SWEAR this is true. I wish I'd had this set into clear plastic

It's about 1972. I read them all I was in the RADAR shop at Miramar on break, and picked up the latest Hot Craft Rod Speed ....you name it they are all the same

....................and I happened on a little boxed in statement way WAY in the back..................

It said basically that "when we road test cars, and we think the road conditions, the weather, or maybe even the half asleep drive wasn't up to it, or that the car "should have done better," then we "factor" the results...................

AND THIS MEANS ladies, and gents, that those XX.XX times posted back then can NOT be trusted!!!!
 
I talked to the "kid" on Monday and it turns out that TV and internet is the culprit.

Seems he got the "impression" from a TV show that points are the way to go.

Also he swears up and down that he saw an article on the internet, about the 400 hp 318.

However, I made some suggestions and he is open minded to suggestions about the car he said "I don't want to mess up the car because my grandma gave it to me"
 
Refer him to youtube. I recall several videos showing the spark from various ignitions. Ask him if he wants the sissy little points pop or the a$$-kicking flash from the HEI ignition. Tell him it is an IQ test. I recall one video is from one of the megasquirt developers. Send him to that site for much reading on engine controls and he can pose his question on forums and get laughed to his senses. If he can't or won't research, then kick him away. But encourage him if he is truly interested and not a stubborn old know-it-all fart at 18.
 
Sounds like the victim of a well-meaning newcomer to the hobby - who, unfortunately, been subjected to nothing but crap advice from all sides.

Garbage in, garbage out. If he can Google and learn to weed out the 50% B.S. and zero in on the good advice, he should be all set. A year or two of modest mods and tinkering should do him a world of good to build his "field knowledge" of pushrod V8 tinkering. That's provided he doesn't screw everything up.

-Kurt
 
Rainy Day Auto said:
I talked to the "kid" on Monday and it turns out that TV and internet is the culprit.

Seems he got the "impression" from a TV show that points are the way to go.

Also he swears up and down that he saw an article on the internet, about the 400 hp 318.

However, I made some suggestions and he is open minded to suggestions about the car he said "I don't want to mess up the car because my grandma gave it to me"
Click to expand...

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/113-0304-318-small-block-build/
 
abodyjoe said:
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/113-0304-318-small-block-build/
Click to expand...

401hp...with the stock bottom end screaming away at 6,100rpm.

I know the following is obvious to most of you fellows, but for the newbies following this thread, it should be said:

The trick of that build wasn't the go-fast parts, it's a testament to how well built the 318 is (and the valve spring selection) that it didn't start chucking itself apart.

Further, it really doesn't hurt HRM to risk blowing up or wearing out an engine prematurely for a number - because the engine was built with the intent of providing a headline. Any other person on a budget build wouldn't have dared pushed the engine that far - and would have probably been quite content with pass #2 had he/she the cojones to do so.

Nevertheless, while I must admit that I enjoyed that build and the results as much as the next guy, I keep wondering what they did to the ignition timing on the stock carb. I spy an HEI coil on the board in the back, and some sort of ignition controller that I can't identify. Either way, they aren't factored into the build price. Also, doesn't mechanical advance control on a Mopar electronic distributor require an adapter plate?

One other thing - if someone is this desperate to get 400hp out of a 318, it'd make more sense to start with a Magnum 5.2. Roller cam hardware already part of the package, better heads, pistons may be slightly higher compression (don't recall, as I wound up building a 5.9 myself), better port flow, etc. Granted, it's not as much fun saying you squeezed 400hp out of a flat-tappet 318, but it's a hell of a better way to get there.

-Kurt

P.S.: Yes, I know I'm essentially dissing a Dave Frieburger article. No, I won't turn in my Roadkill Merit Badge - I don't hold it against him.
 
cudak888 said:
401hp...with the stock bottom end screaming away at 6,100rpm.
Click to expand...
Correction... " with the worn out stock bottom end screaming away at 6100 rpm". I think what they did not tell you in that article was that for the last dyno run, they dropped in some of those old JC Whitney cylinder pills that would coat the rings and make the compression go up for about 100 miles LOL

I already posted some cautions on that article along the same lines.....$1500 (at 2004 prices) and 400 HP and the bottom end was not touched? Riiiight....

Well, it sounds like Rainy Day Auto is getting a new enthusiast headed in the right direction. Hope the youngster was steered to FABO and enjoys the hobby!
 
nm9stheham said:
Correction... " with the worn out stock bottom end screaming away at 6100 rpm". I think what they did not tell you in that article was that for the last dyno run, they dropped in some of those old JC Whitney cylinder pills that would coat the rings and make the compression go up for about 100 miles LOL

I already posted some cautions on that article along the same lines.....$1500 (at 2004 prices) and 400 HP and the bottom end was not touched? Riiiight....

Well, it sounds like Rainy Day Auto is getting a new enthusiast headed in the right direction. Hope the youngster was steered to FABO and enjoys the hobby!
Click to expand...

Well said - it's been built like one of Roadkill's cars.

-Kurt
 
ya know, I won't argue the positive argument with the electronic ignition, but I wonder WHEN the carb will go away like most points ignition in favor of fuel injection in our old cars. when everyone argues more power and reliability with that FI set up and all its hardware!????
I have to wonder HOW we drove these old "points" cars year after year with such reliability, and upon occasion hitting 110- 120 mph?? Ha
 
Rani,
You are not doing it. Bottom line. It's a bad idea.
Either way he leaves on this one. That point is irrelevant.
You have also avoided a potential problem.
However, if you refuse to do it AND explain why and he accepts that, you may have made a future customer and other people might come to you.
Being obnoxious probably won't get you any business from him....or his friends in future.
That's my advice. It's free.
 
be nice people, we all had a learning curve, some more than others. lol
just think how you would feel, after someone tested and proved how little you knew.
 
Hi Ranigirl,

Lead him to FABO. He will get good answers and help here. As a group theres a lot of knowledge here, nobody knows everything, and what we know we have been taught. Either by someone knowledgable, or by reading and learning by doing for ourselves.

I agree with other posters. Explain to him the merits of the electronic ignition, and help him hop up the existing ignition he has. Hotter coil, brass terminal cap/coil. Maybe take the dist apart, give it a good cleaning and oiling, and recurve it. Somebody else mentioned the mr gasket recurve spring kit 925B. Comes with 2 springs but for street use you only need 1. Save the other for one of your engines.

If he doesnt want to learn, and take advice from you who he came to in the first place because you were recommended and are very knowledgable, then cut him loose, and dont look back. Its not worth your time or the trouble.

Matt
 
Cut the kid some slack and get him schooled up. Elec is the better system between the two pure and simple. Then there is other options above and beyond that. I like his dreaming big about his Mopar! Foster that!!

Best

CE
 
abodyjoe said:
he has obviously been talking to some old head that's still stuck in the 60's.
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This /\ /\


There is a mopar guy near me that will on point say that the best ignition to this day is a dual points Mallory ignition. He has a 383 roadrunner. I think some of his car is stuck in my air cleaner. LOL.

I'd say give the kid what he wants. Teach him the lesson but make him pay for it. Getting educated isn't free.
 
Hey Ranigirl,

I will prob get flamed by the GM HEI haters, but what about wiring up a GM HEI 4 pin setup on a www.designed2drive.com mounting plate, a hotter coil, dumping the ballast resistor, and giving it an even hotter spark, recurve the stock dizzy with a FBO ignition recurve plate kit, and a Mr gasket spring kit 925B.

Matt
 
moparmat2000 said:
Hey Ranigirl,

I will prob get flamed by the GM HEI haters, but what about wiring up a GM HEI 4 pin setup on a www.designed2drive.com mounting plate, a hotter coil, dumping the ballast resistor, and giving it an even hotter spark, recurve the stock dizzy with a FBO ignition recurve plate kit, and a Mr gasket spring kit 925B.

Matt
Click to expand...

^
What he said. Simple and effective.

Been thinking of that recurve plate kit, but I'll have to look into those springs too.

-Kurt
 
cudak888 said:
^
What he said. Simple and effective.

Been thinking of that recurve plate kit, but I'll have to look into those springs too.

-Kurt
Click to expand...

Hey Kurt,

For street use, you will only need one spring from the MRG 925B kit. It comes with 2. You replace your heavier stock spring with the Mr gasket spring. The fbo ignition kit comes in multiple ways. With springs, without springs, with or without instructions etc. Personally id get it with the instructions.

Matt
 
moparmat2000 said:
Hey Kurt,

For street use, you will only need one spring from the MRG 925B kit. It comes with 2. You replace your heavier stock spring with the Mr gasket spring. The fbo ignition kit comes in multiple ways. With springs, without springs, with or without instructions etc. Personally id get it with the instructions.

Matt
Click to expand...

Excellent; invaluable to know. Thanks again for sharing that.

-Kurt
 
OK, anybody ready to put their money where there mouth is? I am. I've got $500 bucks that says we take any normally aspirated, carbed, street/strip style Mopar that operates under 6 grand, and we back to back a curved single point vs identical setup electronic and run them both off at the same track, same day and see which one goes faster.
A difference of more than .005 averaged after three runs gets the cash.
 
Put up or shut up. I love it.
 
whitepunkonnitro said:
OK, anybody ready to put their money where there mouth is? I am. I've got $500 bucks that says we take any normally aspirated, carbed, street/strip style Mopar that operates under 6 grand, and we back to back a curved single point vs identical setup electronic and run them both off at the same track, same day and see which one goes faster.
Click to expand...

If there was a dragstrip around here, I'd gladly volunteer my '68 Satellite for the test. '89 roller cam 360 with a bone-stock bottom end topped with Magnum 5.9 heads. 1992 Maggie exhaust manifolds dumping into a home-brewed 2.25-to-2.5" dual exhaust that ought to make a lot of people laugh. Currently has the HEI/Ford coil conversion in it, and it's probably a week off from being ready to emerge from the driveway workshop.

Unfortunately, closest dragstrip is in Homestead, and the next opening is December 4th. Not quite ideal.

-Kurt
 
cudak888 said:
If there was a dragstrip around here, I'd gladly volunteer my '68 Satellite for the test. Currently has the HEI/Ford coil in it, and it's probably a week off from being ready to emerge from the driveway workshop.

Unfortunately, closest dragstrip is in Homestead, and the next opening is December 4th. Not quite ideal.

-Kurt
Click to expand...

It's a sucker bet, man. I've done it with a Street Hemi, at least one 340 and a couple of 383s. It's a dead heat every time.
 
whitepunkonnitro said:
It's a sucker bet, man. I've done it with a Street Hemi, at least one 340 and a couple of 383s. It's a dead heat every time.
Click to expand...

Heck, and I already see myself breaking something worth more than $500 in the bargain. Come to think of it, I don't see where I'll be making diddly on this bet. Doesn't the guinea pig get something?*

-Kurt

*And I don't mean a Roadkill T-shirt.
 
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