Even custom cams aren't perfect

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Ironmike

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Degreed my Bullet solid roller today. Supposed to be a 108 LSA. When I set it up dot to dot it came out 109.5.

Tim wanted it installed at 104, so I advanced til I got 103.5.

Talked to them and they were very cool about it. All cores aparrantly are not perfect. I think the important thing is that I got it real close to 104.

Tried a Howards Cam billet timing set and it's really nice, but has a wee bit of slop. Not sure whether I'm gonna return it or not. Last 2 I used were Cloyes and they were both pretty tight.

How much flex do ya think is ok, if any?
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We tend to want about NONE but that is kinda unrealistic with a chain set.
They all slack a hair' after some run time, but you really don't want timing to bounce around , like most of us. Unfortunately once you settle the rpms it will move around a hair. Tensioners can be a good idea, but not full proof.
Think Gear drive.
If that chain is allowing the cam to go back and forth now , New, then its not getting any better after some run time. Did you line hone to the point of needing the shorter cloyes chain set or did Howard's mess up...?
I run a mancini chain set ,billet, its tight...even after refresh...but it still let's that time mark move just a hair when rpm settles...
 
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I know what you mean, I don't think you have a real problem although tighter is better because they never get tighter only looser. If you look at how far it has to turn to make 1 degree that is a lot of slop and it depends on if your going to tear it down once a season or not. As for Bullet cams I had a bad experience my first time with them, I got a Hemi cam and had to buy a brand new core $$ that was not the problem it was they didn't finish grinding it! I had to send it back and have it fixed and then I still had to file the burs off the lobes, but I did get a t-shirt out of the deal! Woo Hoo!!

cam before fix1.jpg


cam fix1.jpg
 
3 things affect where the cam degrees in. how the cam is machined. how the timing set is machined. how the crank is machined
 
I have had good luck with ultradine cams-bulletcams make good power. I have put lots of small block mopars together. And as the last guy said 3 things affect where the cam degrees in. how the cam is machined. how the timing set is machined. how the crank is machined. You got it right on at 103.5 that is where I would put it. Yes sometimes we have to clean up some parts before we assemble them. I had to spend hours on my super victor intake to make it work with the Indy T/A heads and the mopar valve covers. All part of hot rodding.
 
Yes I agree with some rough castings need cleaned up but not a $300.00 custom ground cam shaft!
 
How do you know the discrepancy is in the camshaft?
 
As far as the unfinished areas between the lobes, the blank is cast iron and that is just rough cast iron that you see. You pay for the r&d of the lobes, the grind, and the machining of the Cam to create a finished product.
Rough cast iron isn't necessarily pretty. Now billet is another story. Whittle a cam out of solid round stock of steele and it will be pretty. That will cost you double though !
 
I had the same problem with the Howard's timing chain. Sent it back. Went with Cloyes...problem solved.
 
Wooow we! Nice cam ya got there Mr. Mike! Do you have a build thread with that?
 
Tolerances can stack. To the machining/quality of the crank, timing set components, and cam, I'll add the block machining. I run the Summit billet sets and tensioner on small blocks. The worst I've seen was an MP camshaft and that was the last one I ever ran. The important thing is you degreed it, noted the difference, and put it where it needs to be. That's what's important here.
 
Ok. Now I was no way flaming Bullet. I know everything's involved with degreeing a cam. In my example I think it's the timing set that makes the cam appear different than spec'd.

Could be the dot placement on the gears, could be the keyway position Scat machined in the crank....I probably should have said also I've never had one come out exactly "numbers on". Maybe just my luck.

I guess my point was even though you take the time to get everything perfect.....buy high dollar custom stuff, check and check again......the planets don't always align to make everything APPEAR perfect.

I always find it shocking that some guys STILL do not degree their cams.
Far as the timing set, I think I'm going to return it. I will stick with Cloyes. Can't handle slop in a brand new chain. Even a little.

So now we'll see how the LSA numbers look with a different timing set....
 
rumblefish360 said:
Wooow we! Nice cam ya got there Mr. Mike! Do you have a build thread with that?
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LA 4 inch stroker. 4.040 bore... Typical build. 11.4 to 1, CNC Eddy'S, Scat forged bottom with Icon flat tops. PROBABLY another Super Victor. Seems like no other choice if you want to make power.

Really went all out on this block, machining-wise. Everything dead nuts near perfect. Bushed lifter bores.
 
Well, you could always throw money at the intake problem like the US government with an Indy (needs mods?) , a tunnel ram, (always better with mods!) sheet metal intake... LMFAO!

Hey! Sounds great though. Keep us updated!
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
We tend to want about NONE but that is kinda unrealistic with a chain set.
They all slack a hair' after some run time, but you really don't want timing to bounce around , like most of us. Unfortunately once you settle the rpms it will move around a hair. Tensioners can be a good idea, but not full proof.
Think Gear drive.
If that chain is allowing the cam to go back and forth now , New, then its not getting any better after some run time. Did you line hone to the point of needing the shorter cloyes chain set or did Howard's mess up...?
I run a mancini chain set ,billet, its tight...even after refresh...but it still let's that time mark move just a hair when rpm settles...
Click to expand...
Machinist said hone wasn't enough to warrant a shorter chain. I do take his word as gold, so I gotta believe the Howards is just made a bit looser.
He honed my last 2 and the Cloyes was nice and tight. Don't know why I tried to switch. I'm not a fan of the tentioners.

Gear drive would be really nice. I've run them in Chevys (I know). Just so damn pricey for us Mopar guys.
 
Ironmike said:
Machinist said hone wasn't enough to warrant a shorter chain. I do take his word as gold, so I gotta believe the Howards is just made a bit looser.
He honed my last 2 and the Cloyes was nice and tight. Don't know why I tried to switch. I'm not a fan of the tentioners.

Gear drive would be really nice. I've run them in Chevys (I know). Just so damn pricey for us Mopar guys.
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I wish I had bought a few of those cheap CAT gear drives when they were all over E-Bag--they were a challenge to set up but actually worked well and sounded pretty cool too. J.Rob
 
The problem with gear drives are they transmit harmonic vibrations from the cam, crank that a chain absorbs. That's why a Jesel belt drive is so good besides being adjustable the belt absorbs more than the chain does. Gear drives are fine if you are running low lift, weak springs, engines have been running them forever, but when you get up into .650, .750 lift triple springs the cam transmits a lot of harmonic vibrations that are sent to the crank and all over the valve train, and from the crank to the cam. Everybody knows that vibrations are bad that's why you balance your motor.
Just my 2 cents on gear drives.
 
brian6pac said:
The problem with gear drives are they transmit harmonic vibrations from the cam, crank that a chain absorbs. That's why a Jesel belt drive is so good besides being adjustable the belt absorbs more than the chain does. Gear drives are fine if you are running low lift, weak springs, engines have been running them forever, but when you get up into .650, .750 lift triple springs the cam transmits a lot of harmonic vibrations that are sent to the crank and all over the valve train, and from the crank to the cam. Everybody knows that vibrations are bad that's why you balance your motor.
Just my 2 cents on gear drives.
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Bullcrap unless you can provide documented evidence that a gear drive transfers harmonics to the crank. Bullshit. You might convince me it goes the other way, from crank to cam. But not from the cam to the crank.

Do some research and see what actually uses a gear drive.


Edit: evidently, you've never seen what Fuel burning engines use to drive the cam. Or blown alcohol stuff. Or the 410 sprint car stuff that makes lap after lap after lap after lap with more lift than most people here run.
 
RAMM said:
I wish I had bought a few of those cheap CAT gear drives when they were all over E-Bag--they were a challenge to set up but actually worked well and sounded pretty cool too. J.Rob
Click to expand...


Were those CAT pieces a 3 gear drive or a 4? I don't remember them even making GD's.
 
yellow rose said:
Bullcrap unless you can provide documented evidence that a gear drive transfers harmonics to the crank. Bullshit. You might convince me it goes the other way, from crank to cam. But not from the cam to the crank.

Do some research and see what actually uses a gear drive.


Edit: evidently, you've never seen what Fuel burning engines use to drive the cam. Or blown alcohol stuff. Or the 410 sprint car stuff that makes lap after lap after lap after lap with more lift than most people here run.
Click to expand...


Unfortunately Jesel doesn't make one for a SBMopar LA engine or I would be running one, So before you put your foot in your mouth I would like someone other than yellowrose to call Jesel tech at (732) 901.1800 and ask them and report there findings. I'm looking forward to it.
 
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