Exactly what makes a MOPAR a "Matching Numbers" car?

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harrisonm

harrisonm

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I was watching an episode of Graveyard Carz where Mark was talking about 'matching numbers' on a 70 Barracuda. The engine and transmission matched the VIN and stampings on the body in a few places. But then other problems popped up that eventually revealed the Cuda was two cars grafted together. Then there was another episode where he was talking about things that are date coded. As I remember, intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds, distributors carbs plug wires, water pumps, heads and more had casting numbers and date codes.
It got me to thinking, exactly what does it mean when a car (in this case specifically a MOPAR) is "Matching Numbers"? I assume there are probably differences between different years, but in general, what makes a car a matching numbers car?
1. If the numbers stamped in the pad on the engine block, numbers stamped on the transmission and numbers stamped into the body on the radiator support and trunk opening lip (on my 69 Barracuda) match the VIN, is that a matching number car? Or do parts with numbers cast into them (like manifolds, water pumps, heads, etc.) need to match. For instance, a 1971 340 intake manifold might fit my 69 340 and look fine when painted, but it might have a different casting number.
2. Then factor in date coded parts as mentioned above. Do all these parts need to also be correct in order for a car to be considered matching numbers?
3. Are there different levels of what is considered to be Matching Numbers?
What do you guys think?
 
I think different levels is feasible. If the vin part is all matching then a part that is not date matching can always be swapped to get it closer but to really advertise it as "number matching" to me, all of the parts should be date coded correctly.
 
The price. OEM is a weird place in the hobby. It generally is about money, not fun. My opinion.
 
Original to me is the most valuable, once restored it isnt original. Then second would be the correct resto which would require the numbers matching components. Everything that is VIN stamped is still with the car etc.
 
To ME (not everyone's opinion) a numbers matching car has the original engine and trans that match the Vin and body numbers (and fender tag.). I'm not anal enough to look for date codes or part #s on stuff that gets replaced when it wears out (hoses, alternators, belts, water pumps, etc.)
Is it numbers matching, if it has the original engine.... and headers and turbo mufflers? In my opinion, YES.
 
matching numbers is basically what you wrote in #1. body numbers match the other numbers. matching numbers is matching numbers even if say an alt has the wrong date code.

all the date code stuff is for top restoration or top original cars.
 
yup, my H code Swinger has the numbers matching drivetrain but it will never be a Barrett J car, I plan on driving it. The next guy can take it all the way if he wants.
 
Someone could get by with something between the two being one would really be all original unmolested...while the other could merely mean it has the right year this and that and platform designation along w/casting #....but not be the correct # stamped by the factory to the cars production #.
 
Both of these cars of mine are numbers matching cars IMHO.
familycarcruiseoct12022 012.jpg

Now the Dart has headers and non factory exhaust, alternator is a replacement and intake and carb aren't correct but it's still a #'s car.

The Bee on the other hand is more #'s matching as even the alternator and exhaust manifolds are what came on it new, with a full factory correct exhaust system to boot. The wheels are CTC from 1978, but I do have the original full wheel covers it came with from the factory... just not the steel wheels they go on.

Then you get to the down right craziness of finding tie rod ends and ball joints that are factory NOS, but to me that "value wise" changes nothing as even those over the counter NOS parts from the service shelves aren't assembly line components.
 
I think “matching numbers” applies to VIN stamped parts only. The rest is for high end restorations and doesn’t apply to the question. In my opinion.
 
Short answer...

A numbers matching car has the vin stamped on the engine, trans and hidden sheet metal on a car.

Before 68 (IIRC) the vin was not stamped on the engine, trans, or body. There was a sequence number for 67 back to sometime in the past that ties the engine, trans and body together with the fender tag and build sheets but does not tie it to the VIN except if you have a build sheet maybe an IBM card(???)


As for date correct parts...

If you have a Jan 67 built Dart and you have 1980 Alternator it is not date correct. Even an Apr 67 alternator would not be date correct. An Oct through December 66 alternator would/might be date correct. The parts were made days to weeks to months ahead of time.


The reason....

If you have a car that has all of its as built origional parts it is considered more valuable to some collectors.

If it is restored with date correct parts it is considered more valuable to some collectors


Don't get too hung up on it. Build it drive it, enjoy it!
 
Matching #'s is what you said earlier. Numbers on Block, Trans, and Supports Match the Vin. That's it. You don't have to have the correct Intake or manifolds. It's nice to have those things though
 
My '70 Challenger has Tag, Broadcast Sheet, punch cards, all stampings on panels cowl Rad. Support etc... But the the starter and alternator are not date code. I consider mine number matching.
 
Low mileage untouched survivors are top game, everything but you have to take with a grain of salt. Value is in the eye of the beholder. Its crazy to think that any two cars came off the assembly line with the exact same parts and markings. 50 plus old cars, its just a privilege and honor have and drive one.
 
I remember the episode. Mark found, after he got into its resto (which seems to always take him many years) was that it was rebodied. Or lets just say, the vin tag does not match the body!!!! The vin # on rad. support and back side of car were not right. NOT good on a car you will spend what? maybe $80,000 paid to Mark??

The anal resto guy wants everything oem right down to what they seem to think is dated in the correct window. and for sure the vin on eng., trans if what, late 68 up. ok Then there are the so very few survivors that still have all or most all their parts and pieces that came on it from the factory. Dated air in tires.

I personally enjoy knowing what is correct as to how they came from the factory. It does not mean every car I touch as to be built to such! Some cars deserve such. I used to find a few "matching #" cars back in the 80s, fewer in the 90s and hardly ever now! Now days,,, I always look for rollers that I can build as how I want without fuss or criticism. Well actually, the older I get the less I give a chit who critizes!
 
harrisonm said:
I was watching an episode of Graveyard Carz where Mark was talking about 'matching numbers' on a 70 Barracuda. The engine and transmission matched the VIN and stampings on the body in a few places. But then other problems popped up that eventually revealed the Cuda was two cars grafted together. Then there was another episode where he was talking about things that are date coded. As I remember, intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds, distributors carbs plug wires, water pumps, heads and more had casting numbers and date codes.
It got me to thinking, exactly what does it mean when a car (in this case specifically a MOPAR) is "Matching Numbers"? I assume there are probably differences between different years, but in general, what makes a car a matching numbers car?
1. If the numbers stamped in the pad on the engine block, numbers stamped on the transmission and numbers stamped into the body on the radiator support and trunk opening lip (on my 69 Barracuda) match the VIN, is that a matching number car? Or do parts with numbers cast into them (like manifolds, water pumps, heads, etc.) need to match. For instance, a 1971 340 intake manifold might fit my 69 340 and look fine when painted, but it might have a different casting number.
2. Then factor in date coded parts as mentioned above. Do all these parts need to also be correct in order for a car to be considered matching numbers?
3. Are there different levels of what is considered to be Matching Numbers?
What do you guys think?
Click to expand...
miscellaneous-worms-can-tin-opening_a_can_of_worms-opening-jfa2492_low.jpg
 
Let me be more clear. Factory correct happens once, as it rolls off the assembly line and even some of those cars were not numbers matching or factory spec correct. You know we ran out of parts so we substituted kind of thing. You and I were not there.

So who knows what your car was like on day one?

Restoration experts and car show judges can run around chasing their tails only to change their opinion somewhere down the road.
 
ch1ll said:
Let me be more clear. Factory correct happens once, as it rolls off the assembly line and even some of those cars were not numbers matching or factory spec correct. You know we ran out of parts so we substituted kind of thing. You and I were not there
Click to expand...
I ordered a new 70 Duster slant car Dec. 26 1969. Lucky me, when it arrived it had a 426 hemi....the dealer said they ran out of stants that day and there it was with my hemi!!!!!! True story! :steering:
 
Its all about the price.

There's a huge difference in a car being original and one that is restored to original .


If you are going to ask $100,000.00 for an original, 1967 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible Formula S with 383 and a 4-speed , it better have every number accurate , matching and have the provinance to prove what you say. If not, its a 35-40,000 car at best.

Me, I could care less. I'll take a clone anyday. I don't have to worry about numbers, the cars usually look as good or better and in a lot of cases are better optioned and are assembled with the same attention to detail as the originals. Plus, 90% of people looking at it will never know.

Even Worman's cars are never "original" once they leave Graveyard Cars. They are essentially "recreations" of the original using as many NOS or reproduced parts as it takes to finish the job. I'm not taking anything away from his work as it is impeccable and the cars look amazing when finished, its just that they are no longer original cars, just original appearing with the correct numbers and identification in place.
 
barbee6043 said:
I ordered a new 70 Duster slant car Dec. 26 1969. Lucky me, when it arrived it had a 426 hemi....the dealer said they ran out of stants that day and there it was with my hemi!!!!!! True story! :steering:
Click to expand...
Stop by so we can go for a rip, I definitely want a burn in that car :D:D:D
 
barbee6043 said:
I ordered a new 70 Duster slant car Dec. 26 1969. Lucky me, when it arrived it had a 426 hemi....the dealer said they ran out of stants that day and there it was with my hemi!!!!!! True story! :steering:
Click to expand...
:lol::lol::lol:
 
Numbers???? This is really a true story. Back about 1990 or so, I was driving out in the Missouri sticks, and I see a 70 Challenger sitting back way off the road close to a barn. (yea close). Raining. I drive over to it, no one around. It is a roller, doors locked, dana 60, boxed frame, vin on dash said 318.....HUMnnnnnnn Few days later I find the owner, he had it in HS and was second (maybe really third) owner. YEP he says, always had a 318. Knows that for fact. Yea right. I buy it and haul it home. He admitted PO buddy had changed the busted dash pad for a better one. Door deal says V code six pac. Then I check the eng/trans # on a 68 GTX I just bought from a bud that did my body/paint. Yep, the #s engine for this Challenger. It had a 4 barrel. So I unite the oem engine to the Challenger, but the dash vin says 318 of course!! Weall lived within 60 mles of each other.
Then, I meet up with a dude from Tn. that has a 66 Belvedere roller, all blasted and epoxy primed in and out. Says its a hemi car, he hauls it to my shop but it has a wedge K! and the # for the 66 426 could be hemi or wedge. We trade, I get boot. I had 3-4 V code E bodies sitting around there anyway. This is like '92. Then later I see where he has my Challenger for sale in Hemmings for some pretty big $$$$ (for that time) with the V code dash vin!!!!!!
Counterfeit dash vins back then. We ain't talking rosette rivets!!
Like the Corvette guys says # matching...so what!??
 
i think there's "numbers matching" and then there's "a numbers car" and where that line of demarcation exists can be a little objective.

personally when i hear "numbers matching", i take that to mean the vin matches the body bits and the motor and transmission are matched to that vin, or at the very least correct year, and the rear end as wells as other options are what the fender tag denotes. if it's a 340 car with headers instead of manifolds or the gears have been swapped from 3.23 to 3.90's that's not what i would consider out of hand.

but when i hear "that's a numbers car"? that is when i expect to see the correct date coded alternator, repop coded spark plug wires and properly cad plated pieces in the correct places types of things. it should be just as it rolled off the assembly line and maintained with as much rigor as reasonably possible-- they repop coded belts, hoses and the like for a reason.

further from that, if somebody says "numbers matching" i take that as: this is what it came with from the factory and it hasn't been swapped out. for example, here's a 68 cuda 318/904 numbers matching vs. here's a 68 cuda formula S 340/4spd but now with a stroker 360.
 
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