FINALLY; it runs with some authortity!!!!

-
Slant 6 Shootout April 20th Mo-Kan Dragway. Let's see what it will do at the track and we would like to show the locals a slant with a turbo. Win a Winchester Shotgun and/or the the long distance award pays $150.00. The Sunday April 21st race at Mo-Kan is the Spring Hot Rod Reunion and your car would be a perfect fit. The track is located in SW Missouri just north of Asbury, Mo.

Slantracer,

Thanks for the invitation. I would LOVE to be at that race, but it's a 540-mile round trip for us, and I am just not that confident to go that far with this old tub for a first-time-ever, outing.

I am sure you'll understand. We don't have a trailer, yet, so that's another problem for a deal like this...

Have fun and let the folks here know how the race went; I'd be there if circumstances were a little different; our time is coming. :happy1:

Stay tuned!
 
Is there a thread on the build? I would love to turbo my 69 valiant and have something different when I open the hood and cruise nights and shows. I want to avoid dropping in a SB V8.

Love to hear advice on parts, fabrication, etc. A shopping list would be nice
 
Thanks for the update Bill,I am like others and am anxiously awaiting the track time...
I wonder if it is a power valve problem,I did notice you are running a boost referenced power valve,or maybe a bad metering block ???
Just throwing some ideas out there...
Check out this video some mods you have already done...
Martin

My Boost referenced power valve project - YouTube

Thanks for the video and the advice. Like you, I suspected the power valve and did a dis-assembly/diagnosis and could find nothing wrong, but I'll look again. After I got it back together, I sucked and blew into the line that delivers boost pressure to the power valve. It doesn't leak, and holds vacuum..

So, I guess I will remove that power valve again, and examine the spring...

Dunno what else to do.

Thanks again for your interest.:profilel:
 
Bill did you calibrate the 02 sensor just a thought I don't no how it's done but your manual should tell you how it's done.
Mine only goes to 10.0, are you on a gasoline scale.

The power valve doesn't come into play till around 2500 rpm do inless its got a ripped diaphragm you could probably rule that out.

Which carb do you have on the car now bill?
Did you receive my email?

Aaron
 
Is there a thread on the build? I would love to turbo my 69 valiant and have something different when I open the hood and cruise nights and shows. I want to avoid dropping in a SB V8.

Love to hear advice on parts, fabrication, etc. A shopping list would be nice

Here ys go...

This is a thumbnail sketch of the mechanical specs of our engine:

Block: 1964 225 slant 6
Head: 1964 225 slant 6
Crank: 1964 forged, ground .010"/.010" and balanced

Block modifications: bored .065" (234 cubic inches); no deck cleanup milling necesssary

Cylinder head was bought used off ebay from a guy who found it in a VAN, in Las Vegas. The van was in a junkyard, so he never got any information about it, but it was ported (pretty nice port job, my machinist said) and had 1.74"/1.5" valves installed. It came with a set of stock rocker arms, which we are using.
It's never been flowed...

.024"-thick. shim steel head gasket

The cam is a Bullet-brand, flat tappet, and I don't have the card handy, but I'm pretty sure it's a 210/210 @ .050", with .484" lift, ground with 115-degrees of lobe separation. I put it in, 4-degrees retarded to kill some anticipated (hoping for the best!) wheel-spinning low end torque. That may have been a mistake; we'll see.

904 Torqueflite with the 2.74 low gear, a full manual reverse pattern valve body and a TurboAction "Cheetah" reverse pattern floor shifter ($300.00!!!) damn...
3,000-rpm-stall, "bastard" Hughes torque converter ("bastard" because it has early and late internal components to make it fit the early crank snout and late front pump...)

The head had never been milled, so, with some forged, Wiseco flat top pistons, .167" below the deck. The true (measured with a burette) compression ratio turned out to be very close (VERY close) to 9:1. About right, with the 7-inch K-1 forged rods that went with the pistons, as a "set" kind of.... Wiseco works closely with K-1 and developed this low-drag ring setup piston combination, specifically with the wrist pin set (height-wise,) to work with the long, 198 slant 6 forged rod that K-1 produces.

We filed the ring end gaps to: .020" top,
.024" 2nd. Loose, because of the boost-related heat...

Blow-thru modified , 750 Holley, 4150 double pumper with a boost-referenced power valve.

The turbo is a 67 millimeter, Turbonetics, 4-bolt mount unit that came to me from a friend who runs an identical unit on his Grand National Buick (231 cubic inches,) His car runs mid-tens, so he said it should work well on our motor. Our camshaft is very similar to his, in duration and lift. (.210/210-degrees @ .050"-lift with 115 degree lobe centers, and .484" gross lift.)

The header is a 6-into one, 1 5/8", one-off, long tube piece that my partner, Freddie, built. The intake manifold is a long-runner, 4-bbl "Hurricane" from Australia.

We have an oil pan that has had the sump deepened 2.5" and baffles added to prevent oil pump pickup starvation on both acceleration and deceleration.

electric fan
electric water pump

stock oil pump

stock electronic distributor with an MSD 6-AL II (digital) We'll run 18 degrees (no typo) of total advance.

MSD Blaster coil

Taylor solid core wires

Snowperformance Stage I Boost Cooler meth injector that will be set to start spraying at 8 psi of boost

Walbro 51 psi fuel pump running through 3/8" line to a boost-referenced Mallory regulator set at 6psi for the needles and seats. Two inline fuel filters; one before and one after the pump.

Front mounted intercooler that is rated at 550 hp... Don't think we'll be making more than that... lol!

All going into a '64 Valiant 4-door sedan we found in a field.
It's been treated to a tubular a-frame front suspension with disk brakes and a large bolt pattern.

A 1967 Dodge Coronet (B-Body) 8.75" rear end with a 3.55 limited-slip gear set brings up the rear, which has Cal-Tracs, 50/50 shocks and Hoosier 9" X 26" slicks on 8" wide, 15" wheels.

So, if you need more information, just ask.

If you don't need a lot of horsepower, you can use less boost and stock pistons and rods and save about a grand on parts. This build should yield about 500 hp if 25 pounds if boost is used. We probably will never use more than 20 pounds because we failed to O-ring the block and the head gasket probably would give up before 25 pounds was used.

So, we will probably only have maybe 350 horsepower to play with at 10 pounds of boost.

We'll see...

Good luck; this not easy nor cheap, but is a viable alternative to the usual 360 swap.

Here are a couple of photos...
 

Attachments

  • 100_3613.jpg
    112.3 KB · Views: 426
  • 100_3622-001.jpg
    95.6 KB · Views: 425
  • 100_3796.jpg
    116.6 KB · Views: 439
  • 100_3489-2.jpg
    102.6 KB · Views: 424
  • 100_3720.jpg
    133 KB · Views: 419
Bill did you calibrate the 02 sensor just a thought I don't no how it's done but your manual should tell you how it's done.
Mine only goes to 10.0, are you on a gasoline scale.

The power valve doesn't come into play till around 2500 rpm do inless its got a ripped diaphragm you could probably rule that out.

Which carb do you have on the car now bill?
Did you receive my email?

Aaron

I am running the 750 that Tom built for us.

No, I didn't get any email. Try it again, please.

Billdedman@hotmail.com
 
Slant 6 Shootout April 20th Mo-Kan Dragway. Let's see what it will do at the track and we would like to show the locals a slant with a turbo. Win a Winchester Shotgun and/or the the long distance award pays $150.00. The Sunday April 21st race at Mo-Kan is the Spring Hot Rod Reunion and your car would be a perfect fit. The track is located in SW Missouri just north of Asbury, Mo.
Ok ive seen you or at lest your car run in tulsa years ago ... I say lets have a slanty run off this nov You vs bills car . In tulsa that gives bill time to tune in his car. What yall say ? maybe yall can even beat up on some v8 cars lol
 
How could that be a fair race?
My car is N/A with a manual transmission, but I'm up for it.
It could be fun to see the turbo car in my rear view mirror as I cross the finish line.
Just kidding!!!
 
Ok ive seen you or at lest your car run in tulsa years ago ... I say lets have a slanty run off this nov You vs bills car . In tulsa that gives bill time to tune in his car. What yall say ? maybe yall can even beat up on some v8 cars lol

Asa, Our car has never even SEEN a drag strip! It might go 19.5.... nobody knows yet...


Settle down! LOL!

It might blow sky high before it makes it to the finish line... stranger things have happened!

I wouldn't bet 5-cents on it 'til I see it actually make a run on a set of clocks...

You have more faith it it than ~I~ do, that's f'r sure!!!

But, thanks for the compliment! :-D
 
But, at a 3,000 rpm stall, this thing moves well (when it hooks,) off the line... Better than my '72 supercharged, 360-Magnum, powered '72 Valiant (3,400 pounds.)

I am happy, but confused and don't have a clue as to what to do...


Ideas?????????????????:banghead:
Swap carbs and does your Valiant have an A/F-ratio meter...Talking out loud...again.
Martin
 
How could that be a fair race?
My car is N/A with a manual transmission, but I'm up for it.
It could be fun to see the turbo car in my rear view mirror as I cross the finish line.
Just kidding!!!
LOL Good I cant wate to see that car agin ! How long have you had the car ? Yes i know its fast lol

Asa, Our car has never even SEEN a drag strip! It might go 19.5.... nobody knows yet...


Settle down! LOL!

It might blow sky high before it makes it to the finish line... stranger things have happened!

I wouldn't bet 5-cents on it 'til I see it actually make a run on a set of clocks...

You have more faith it it than ~I~ do, that's f'r sure!!!

But, thanks for the compliment! :-D
LOL Bill Ive ran slower things down that track before its all for fun. Lets rock it buddy. Bill i think by that time you will have that girl tuned up and running good . I have fath in ya. Even if you run 17.1 You still get to hang out with us lol and a fellow slanty racer . I have a vid on VHS yes that long ago of his green monster running inless there are 2 of them lol He may may rember a orange one with silver stripes running at tulsa in bout 98 0r 99 . We didnt do much we ran like 13.2 or some thing like that i dont remeber i was a kid then.
 
Here are 2 shots off the VHS ive got from 98. One Pic of his car and One of my friends x slanty racer
 

Attachments

  • IMG_9992.JPG
    117.7 KB · Views: 393
  • IMG_9993.JPG
    76.9 KB · Views: 384
Swap carbs and does your Valiant have an A/F-ratio meter...Talking out loud...again.
Martin

We have swapped the carbs back and forth twice and have changed kets multiple times, but FINALLY have the A/F ratio where we want it under ten pounds of boost (11.6:1 with the alcohol/water chemical intercooler spraying.)

But, the cruise ratio is way too fat (like I am) so we're gonna wpork on that and try like the dickens, not to move that 11.6:1 boost ratio, because it took us a year of turmiol to get it there...

Our A/F meter is a "F.A.S.T". wideband datalogging meter.

It would be impossible to tune one of these turbo cars without one.

I can't imagine...

Thanks for your interest, and the kind words!!! :blob:
 
Well you know you are going to have to go EFI and megasquirt....LOL !!!
Hang in there you will figure it out !!!
 
Well you know you are going to have to go EFI and megasquirt....LOL !!!
Hang in there you will figure it out !!!

That's what Aaron did. I'll be interested to see how his Toad runs on Alcohol My guess is that it may well be the first A-body into the nines...:blob:
 
Bill, Back to the too rich thing.
I'll try to keep it simple for troubleshooting ( for my benefit not yours ) :D

So the engine sees the following conditions:
( this is my understanding, please correct if need be )

Idle: This is tuned with idle adjustment, sounds like you have this part figured out.

Transition throttle : I'm not going into that just yet. I've broken this point out so I don't have to include accelerator pump shot into the part throttle pieces.

Part throttle ( no boost ) : Tuned with main jets and maybe power valve depending on what vacuum it has at the time.

Part throttle ( boost ) : Tuned with main jets, power valve, vent tube extensions.

Wide open ( boost ) : From your wideband this look fine ( until you start messing with other stuff ) :lol:

I had the same issue that you're going through. Way too much fuel at part throttle and fine at full throttle. Sounds like too much main jet.
Mine was 13.1 at idle ( for some reason it wouldn't idle right any leaner than that )
10.2 at part throttle and 11.4 at full throttle.
I downed the main jets from 74 to 68 on the 350 holley, lengthened the vent tube about 2 inches into the inlet piping, opened up the power valve holes ( to what I completely forget ) and the issues went away. Now I did have to play with the whole accelerator pump shot a lot afterwards to get transition throttle to behave correctly.

What mains are you running and where do you have the regulator reference port connected?

Oh, and I'm not sure what would make me smile more, the sedan going sideways down the highway, or seeing 2 old geezers in that car going sideways down the highway.

This thread made my week! Keep up the good work! I love that car. You guys rock!!!
 
Bill, Back to the too rich thing.
I'll try to keep it simple for troubleshooting ( for my benefit not yours ) :D

So the engine sees the following conditions:
( this is my understanding, please correct if need be )

Idle: This is tuned with idle adjustment, sounds like you have this part figured out.

Transition throttle : I'm not going into that just yet. I've broken this point out so I don't have to include accelerator pump shot into the part throttle pieces.

Part throttle ( no boost ) : Tuned with main jets and maybe power valve depending on what vacuum it has at the time.

Part throttle ( boost ) : Tuned with main jets, power valve, vent tube extensions.

Wide open ( boost ) : From your wideband this look fine ( until you start messing with other stuff ) :lol:

I had the same issue that you're going through. Way too much fuel at part throttle and fine at full throttle. Sounds like too much main jet.
Mine was 13.1 at idle ( for some reason it wouldn't idle right any leaner than that )
10.2 at part throttle and 11.4 at full throttle.
I downed the main jets from 74 to 68 on the 350 holley, lengthened the vent tube about 2 inches into the inlet piping, opened up the power valve holes ( to what I completely forget ) and the issues went away. Now I did have to play with the whole accelerator pump shot a lot afterwards to get transition throttle to behave correctly.

What mains are you running and where do you have the regulator reference port connected?

Oh, and I'm not sure what would make me smile more, the sedan going sideways down the highway, or seeing 2 old geezers in that car going sideways down the highway.

This thread made my week! Keep up the good work! I love that car. You guys rock!!!


You certainly nailed it!!! What you describe is exactly what is going on!

Our immediate plan, after talking with Tom Wolfe, (the guy who has taken us by the hand and led us to this point,) is to try drilling out the power valve channel restrictor (PVCR) holes a little at a time, while simultaneously, reducing the size of the main jets in the primaries, and monitor the mixture under cruise and full-throttle boost. Right now, we are running 97's in the primaaries and 91's in the secondaries with a boost-referenced power valve that is mounted to a set of stock (.070"?) PVCR holes. I know those jet sizes are insane, but that's what it took to get an 11.6:1 A/F ratio with 10 pounds of boost.

As soon as I can get some time to do it, I'll start upping the size of the PVCR holes, while reducing the primary jet sizes (leaving the secondary jets alone.)

After a few increases in the PVCR hole sizes, and reductions in the main jet primary sizes, hopefully, this thing will straighten out, with a mixture under cruise, that I can live with, and without coming off that desired 11.6:1 mixture under boost.

I'll let you know how that turns out, but it may be next week before I get time to work on it.

Thanks loads for the kind words and the interest and tech help!

We (obviously) need all the help we can get!!! Hairdryers are new to us, as are slant sixes. They sure like each other, though; I was amazed at the amount of power even ten pounds of boost unlocked from this antique... Can;t wait to try fifteen... and more.:blob:
 
Holy monstrous main jet batman! :lol: Sounds like you're on the right track though.
The only thing I'll suggest is to go in small steps on the PVCR holes. I went WAY too big and ended up having to plug and redrill, not a huge pain, but aggravating.
My turbo setup was very mild compared to what yall are running. Mine saw 10lbs only a couple of times with almost the same results ( tire smoke from a 25mph roll :D ) Even with my 6-8 lb setup the tired motor was a beast. Glad I can help, even if just a smidge.
You guys are an inspiration to us all! I can't wait to see the time slips from the track :cheers:
 
Holy monstrous main jet batman! :lol: Sounds like you're on the right track though.
The only thing I'll suggest is to go in small steps on the PVCR holes. I went WAY too big and ended up having to plug and redrill, not a huge pain, but aggravating.
My turbo setup was very mild compared to what yall are running. Mine saw 10lbs only a couple of times with almost the same results ( tire smoke from a 25mph roll :D ) Even with my 6-8 lb setup the tired motor was a beast. Glad I can help, even if just a smidge.
You guys are an inspiration to us all! I can't wait to see the time slips from the track :cheers:

Matt, I appreciate very much, the good advice and the kind words.

I'll take that advice and run with it (at my age, a neat trick!) and hope we don't disappoint you guys at the strip. We're gonna start out at ten pounds and work our wy up from there (assuming we haven't blown it up by then.)

Can you give me a hint as to what precipitated your decision to replace that leaning tower of power in your daily driver?


Just curious as to what kind of egregious goings-on could have caused you to change your mind; you are obviously a very smart guy who seemed to have everything under control..... or, was that not the case? Just wondering...
 
Was on the turbo forum and read this and thought of you Bill:
http://www.theturboforums.com/threads/362503-Another-blow-thru-carb-question-Help!

Was talking to friend last weekend who has 318 twin turbo and due to his cheap carb hat he was having similar problems than you and was messing with his vent extension at different lengths and his ran best with just the rear extension and no front !!!

Thanks for the link and for thinking about me. There's not much satisfaction in learning that we are not alone with these tuning problems. All that does is remind us that there are people a LOT smarter than we are who need help, too, when tuning one of these blow-thru projects relative to mixture issues under boost.

We have an uphill battle, for sure, but it's still easier than trying to make any real horsepressure, normally aspirated, given the problems this /6 cylinder head has.

Somebody on another thread suggested that what we need is an Edelbrock head for this engine,

The fact is, unless you design a 4-valve head, there's not room for any reasonably-sized valves due to the small bore sizes this engine has.

I don't believe that ANY 2-valve head, regardless of its material, or design, will ever flow enough air to make two hp/cu.in. on this 225 block, normally-aspirated. That's just my opinion, and the reason that I would not spend two cents trying to get performance out of a normally-aspirated 225.

They sealed the fate of this engine in that regard at the factory when they put 3.4" pistons in it.

Hairdryers can change all that... It ain't easy, but it IS do-able...
 
Congrats Bill. Bout time yall got that POS runnin. lol
 
-
Back
Top