Ford with a Mopar engine in it

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elitesrock2

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Now this isn't an A body but I've got an old ford i'm starting to restore. What i've got to work with right now is a 79 f250 ranger lariat camper special. dana 60s front and rear, 4 speed 460 205 transfer case and all that. I plan to put an auto in it as well as a new engine with more power this one is hopped up but has 200k on it. I've always been a ford truck mopar car guy but want to mix the 2. seeming how the big block mopar has high advantages vs a 460 in terms of engine design and also cost. Truck will be winchester grey. Wanting to know what you all think of a 440 727 setup in this truck? It's not like I would have to butcher it to fit and it could all go back to ford as long as a guy has the proper running gear.
 
I love 440's but I'm not sure there is any advantage over a 460 in that truck.
 
Still remember a farmer that put a 440 from a new yorker into a f250. Combination of gearing from the car to the truck it barely made 50 mph. But it would pull anything acros the field. Cut the 2 driveshafts in half and welded them together using angle iron to line up the tubes. Man that thing shook. Its backfiil in the creek now....
 
I wouldn't mess with it. A 440 isn't going to be cheaper to build than a 460. And I believe you'll need a new transfer case, the original Ford np205 is a married case with the NP435. If you go 727 you'll need to figure out a transfer case, the 727's had 203's and 208's. Not sure what if any front driveline alignment issues that might cause. The 4wd thing adds a few wrinkles. Haven't tried that combo so maybe there's adaptors or something I don't know about.

The 390 FE in my '71 F100 does great with a pretty mild build, it's coupled to a later '77 np435/np205 which is a strong 4 speed transfer case combo too. I had to make a transfer case mount for that set up in the earlier truck. I've only got 3.50 gears in that truck and it'll still bark and spin the 35" tires starting in 2nd (granny low 1st). My wife killed the original Dana 20 transfer case doing just that. :D
 
The 460 never came in a 4x4's until the 80's so someone transplanted it. Dual Dana's are uncommon too. Your truck likely came with a 351m or 400 maybe even a 300 I6. I have a 460 in my 79' F-150 4x4 SWB with a ZF5 speed and love it, but I built it. Hands down keep the 460. Nothing against the 440 but the 460 is a great motor and no need to change. Like all late 70's engines including 440's and 400's they suffered from low compression, emissions etc. When built properly they hold their own. Small cam, Performer intake, lightly ported heads, 9:1 static compression can get you 425 hp and about 520 ft/lbs of torq. This is what I built for my 5000lbs truck. I wouldn't say a 440 has a greater advantage over the 385 Ford engine family (370/429/460). There are actually more aftermarket heads for a 385 than the B/RB. But a lot of those are Cobra Jet Port or Hemi heads for truck pulling, racing etc. Stoker kits from 513 to 545 CID in the stock block. Like all engines they have their strengths and weaknesses in stock and modified form.The 460 spanned from 1968 to 1996. The 1988 to 1996 EFI engines have different heads and induction, but still used the 1979 "D9" block. So look at you block and head casting numbers. Also a 370 or 429 looks the same and fits the same. So you don't really know what you have until you measure it or pull it apart or unless you have the original valve covers on and the decal is still there.

Go here and spend a few days reading:

460 Ford Forum

Regarding the Cummins swap, your putting a 1100lbs engine where a 600lbs was deigned to be. So a drop in swap should be avoided with out gusseting the frame.
 
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dano said:
The 460 never came in a 4x4's until the 80's so someone transplanted it. Dual Dana's are uncommon too. Your truck likely came with a 351m or 400 maybe even a 300 I6. I have a 460 in my 79' F-150 4x4 SWB with a ZF5 speed and love it, but I built it. Hands down keep the 460. Nothing against the 440 but the 460 is a great motor and no need to change. Like all late 70's engines including 440's and 400's they suffered from low compression, emissions etc. When built properly they hold their own. Small cam, Performer intake, lightly ported heads, 9:1 static compression can get you 425 hp and about 520 ft/lbs of torq. This is what I built for my 5000lbs truck. I wouldn't say a 440 has a greater advantage over the 385 Ford engine family (370/429/460). There are actually more aftermarket heads for a 385 than the B/RB. But a lot of those are Cobra Jet Port or Hemi heads for truck pulling, racing etc. Stoker kits from 513 to 545 CID in the stock block. Like all engines they have their strengths and weaknesses in stock and modified form.

Go here and spend a few days reading:

460 Ford Forum

Regarding the Cummins swap, your putting a 1100lbs engine where a 600lbs was deigned to be. So a drop in swap should be avoided with out gusseting the frame.
Click to expand...

Agreed....also don't forget the stupid retarded cam timing via retarded timing chain, for emissions.

My '78 S/Cab....

78FordDrivers.jpg
 
The cylinder head for the 385 series engine is superior in design to the 440 Chrysler head. First, they were all true quench designs, much like the bog block Chevrolet. They all had canted "twisted" valves like the big block Chevrolet, to straighten out the air flow, similar to the Hemi. They came in both open and closed chamber designs, easily available in each, while BOTH open AND closed chambers were STILL quench designs. Also, they came for many years with adjustable rockers.

Ford's MAIN number ONE reason they were not pounding Chrysler into the GROUND was because some idiot at Ford Motor Company decided that conservative camshaft timing was better. Ford made their camshafts with retarded camshaft timing from the early 60s all the way through to the end of the 351M/400 engine in 1982. Some as much as by 6*. Yeah, somebody overdosed on their stupid pills.

All that said, I still kinda think a 440 in that truck would be pretty dang cool. Why not? Lots of engine swaps are done all the time. That would be a different one.

I like the Cummins idea, too. I've thought about a 1st generation Cummins swap in my 75 F250 2WD. There are several companies that offer kits. A Cummins and NV4500 in my truck would be really badass.

Those trucks are timeless. Whatever you put in it, as long as it's not as long as it's not gay *** and wimpy will be cool.
 
RustyRatRod said:
The cylinder head for the 385 series engine is superior in design to the 440 Chrysler head. First, they were all true quench designs, much like the bog block Chevrolet. They all had canted "twisted" valves like the big block Chevrolet, to straighten out the air flow, similar to the Hemi. They came in both open and closed chamber designs, easily available in each, while BOTH open AND closed chambers were STILL quench designs. Also, they came for many years with adjustable rockers.

Ford's MAIN number ONE reason they were not pounding Chrysler into the GROUND was because some idiot at Ford Motor Company decided that conservative camshaft timing was better. Ford made their camshafts with retarded camshaft timing from the early 60s all the way through to the end of the 351M/400 engine in 1982. Some as much as by 6*. Yeah, somebody overdosed on their stupid pills.

All that said, I still kinda think a 440 in that truck would be pretty dang cool. Why not? Lots of engine swaps are done all the time. That would be a different one.

I like the Cummins idea, too. I've thought about a 1st generation Cummins swap in my 75 F250 2WD. There are several companies that offer kits. A Cummins and NV4500 in my truck would be really badass.

Those trucks are timeless. Whatever you put in it, as long as it's not as long as it's not gay *** and wimpy will be cool.
Click to expand...

Rusty...it's not the cam thats retarded, its the timing chain. You put an old 429 timing chain in a smogger 460 and it restores the proper cam timing....

...and once you get rid of the smog bump in the D3 exhaust port, the heads flow much better.
 
65Val said:
Rusty...it's not the cam thats retarded, its the timing chain. You put an old 429 timing chain in a smogger 460 and it restores the proper cam timing....

...and once you get rid of the smog bump in the D3 exhaust port, the heads flow much better.
Click to expand...
not in line w/ the conversation here, but there used to be a 65-66 , white ford p/u that was a total piece of junk, that ran out at the dragstrip back many yrs ago. when everyone wanted to know why it ran so good and got to look under the hood in the staging lanes,we walked over and saw that it had a 426 hemi in it. I told my buddy that we just saw a gold brick in a bucket of sh--.
 
65Val said:
Rusty...it's not the cam thats retarded, its the timing chain. You put an old 429 timing chain in a smogger 460 and it restores the proper cam timing....

...and once you get rid of the smog bump in the D3 exhaust port, the heads flow much better.
Click to expand...

Nope, it's actually both. They used retarded camshaft timing, too. It's pretty interesting stuff......stupid, but interesting.
 
65Val said:
Rusty...it's not the cam thats retarded, its the timing chain. You put an old 429 timing chain in a smogger 460 and it restores the proper cam timing....

...and once you get rid of the smog bump in the D3 exhaust port, the heads flow much better.
Click to expand...

Well the trick is, use earlier heads without the bump. Everything is better.
 
I've got a 1990 F350 with a 460 and ZF 5 speed. 4x4 factory dana 60 axles and it's got 238,000 miles on it. It's a beast of a truck, the 460 is a great motor. The 440/727 is a legendary combination no doubt, butI feel like for the money spent on adapting it into a ford would get you a freshly rebuilt and hopped up 460 EFI motor and trans. It's your truck so you do what you like to it, if you do the swap I want to read the thread, but it'll be simpler and more reliable if you use OEM/close to OE equipment. Just my two cents.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Nope, it's actually both. They used retarded camshaft timing, too. It's pretty interesting stuff......stupid, but interesting.
Click to expand...

From "460Ford.com"....
Tips and tricks to maximising power in the 73-86 460.
1. Timing set change; 72 and up have an 8* retard in the timing set stock. Install a 69-71 timing chain set (double roller is also a good upgrade)....

...no mention of camshaft retard.

"Well the trick is, use earlier heads without the bump. Everything is better."

After light porting and smog bump removal, they flow about the same. The early (D0VE) have smaller closed chambers though.
 
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65Val said:
From "www.ford460.com"....
Tips and tricks to maximising power in the 73-86 460.
1. Timing set change; 72 and up have an 8* retard in the timing set stock. Install a 69-71 timing chain set (double roller is also a good upgrade)....

...no mention of camshaft retard.
Click to expand...

Yeah, exactly. 460. I've seen it on a degree wheel. With a known zeroed timing set I got 4* retarded on a 351M camshaft. See, the 351M and especially the 400s were TERRIBLE about spark knock. Ford kept going the wrong way (down) with the piston using shorter compression heights, because quench technology was not as advanced as today. Had they gone the other way and made the piston higher in the bore, they would have fixed the problem.

As a result, there was not "enough room" on "just" the timing set, so they had to retard camshaft timing, too. This is a pretty documented fact through Ford itself, as there were several TSBs on it through the years. I'm not arguing, just telling you what I've seen through the years. I worked at the local Ford dealer in 80-81 and the M block engines were still being made and still fighting detonation. I have seen the TSBs first hand regarding both the timing sets and retarded camshaft timing.
 
OK...thats 351/400...I believe the OP was talking 460/385 series engines, and thats the info I quoted from "460ford.com". Yes, 400's were a disaster, start to finish. Thats why lots of them were replaced with 460's. As usual, not here to argue...just posting from a site with members that specialize in 385 series engines.

I'm done. (unwatch thread)
 
All I remember about 460 Ferds is the "logger's jitney." A cousin of a friend had a 72??--74 Ford F350 2WD that they CONTINUALLY had stuff like a diesel tank, tools, torch, and or gas welder in back. Damn thing would get about 12-14mpg with "all that crap." I was continually amazed. 'Specially since they all were BFH kinda loggers......get a bigger hammer.

To show you the ilk these guys were:

One of the boys damn near got run over by the dozer. Working alone, it was one of those "Johnson bar" type things. He left in in the middle position, got off the cat to unhook etc, and somehow tripped and ended up the damn thing backup up and pinned his leg against a stump. Only reason he's not dead is the cat was idled down some, the stump was large enough it could not crawl over, and there was JUST enough room for his leg "kinda."

He was there for hours until one of the crew came over from another worksite to see how he was "doing." I doubt he learned a damn thing
 
I had an '82, 1 ton dually, 460/4 speed. It was a beast. Got 11/12 mpg, empty or loaded.
 
Update
moving forward with this project i've figured out costs and all and really it all wont be that expensive. I have access to a tig welder and other fab tools to modify or construct my mounts, crossmembers and such and also will be fabricating my own fenderwell headers since these trucks dont accomodate chassis headers very well. going to do a 440 with the hughes whiplash cam, stealth heads, all that. a dyno test they have on their website shows i'll make around 510 hp and 570 ft pounds of torque. altogether for about 2500 bucks. granted thats with a few used parts like intake and stuff. the trans I have a deal going so i will be trading for a complete well built 4x4 727 and have a 205 t case off a c6 sitting around to bolt to. My main reason for the big block mopar is that they are far better designed with better aftermarket support as well as i'm a mopar guy. i've always loved mopar cars and ford trucks. don't like dodge trucks so i want to build the best of both worlds.
 
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