Gearing ?

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Without actually driving to a track and testing things, this whole deal is just gonna cause a lot of confusion. I think some of these guys think you're gonna run 1/8 mile but your original post refers to quarter mile.
All you need to do is play around with an RPM calculator like this one, and find what combo gives you the highway RPM that you want......
Simple RPM Calculator | RANDYS Worldwide

Everyone is completely different on this subject every time, I personally like to do 65MPH at about 2300-2400 RPM's.
Some guys, like Marcohotrod mentioned, can buzz down the highway at 3000 and not care, his combo with a 5.13 gear actually puts him at 4100 RPM's at 65mph if he has a 28" tall tire. I would be able to tolerate that for about 3 minutes lol, and I've had a couple 9 second cars.
 
it can be done,..give up a lil hp not being 1 to 1 but ol boys been running 2nd gear on sagnaw 3 speeds with 10 bolt rears deepest gear like 373s to get a 6:50 or so final drive ratio on circle tracks for years...for years!! stock4 mustangs work same way at the circle tracks!
 
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You're thinkin entirely too much. Pick your parts and tune accordingly. It's really that simple. Nothing.......and I mean nothing ever works out 100% "as designed" anyway, because there's no accounting for, or telling what an unbuilt project will run like. It's all educated guesswork.

I'm not building a race car it's to be a daily driver but I'd like to go to a few drag and autox races a year. Obviously it's ability to do either well will be hampered by taken street as a preference. If I get bitten by the racing bug I'll probably build a race only car but first I'm focusing on this car.

But I'm not one to just throw in 3.23 or 3.55 and called it a day I believe drivetrain should be designed to work as a whole even at this level.

It seems to be getting lost what I'm asking.

If I was building 327 Chevy with a 2 speed powergilde and 4.25 gears. Which would shift and cross the line at optimal rpm or would 3.23 and a 3 speed be better and try to find compromised shift points?

But using the 904 as a 2 speed it's like I'm getting an OD in 3rd cause I'll be running at 2.76 instead of 4.25 or even 3.23 if I go that way.
 
Yes I do over think but really its not bad to plan a bit.

Really my 2 choices are 2.76 or 3.23 gears. The reason I don't want to go deeper than 3.23 is with my short tires it will rev way to high on the highway.

I know the 3.23 has the advantage out of the hole with 8.50:1 overall 1st gear and even probably quicker overall over the 2.76 even though 3.23 will cross the finish line at 4500 rpm. But the 2.76 will make a great highway gear.

I know 2.76 seems really under geared.
But I consider 3.55 x 2.45 (1st) x .89 (27"tire) = 7.74:1 overall 1st gear the average gearing for most. And if I go with the 2.76 x 2.74 x .96 = 7.26:1 not a huge difference between the two.

I'll start with the 2.76 if it don't work can always swap to 2.96 or 3.23.

Thanks for the input.
 
Yes I do over think but really its not bad to plan a bit.

Really my 2 choices are 2.76 or 3.23 gears. The reason I don't want to go deeper than 3.23 is with my short tires it will rev way to high on the highway.

I know the 3.23 has the advantage out of the hole with 8.50:1 overall 1st gear and even probably quicker overall over the 2.76 even though 3.23 will cross the finish line at 4500 rpm. But the 2.76 will make a great highway gear.

I know 2.76 seems really under geared.
But I consider 3.55 x 2.45 (1st) x .89 (27"tire) = 7.74:1 overall 1st gear the average gearing for most. And if I go with the 2.76 x 2.74 x .96 = 7.26:1 not a huge difference between the two.

I'll start with the 2.76 if it don't work can always swap to 2.96 or 3.23.

Thanks for the input.
There are so many data holes in this thread it is impossible to give You any accurate advice at all. Either You're sticking w/25" dia. rollers or not. What stall converter, what is
the rated efficiency, & where does it actually stall behind the teener? You want a drag set-up, auto-X setup, or street/road course set-up? Right-on w/the previous post about
turning the MPH You're talking, the AAR I did heads for was hittin' 109, worked out roughly 340 at the wheels, He was test shifting as high as 7200 w/that 340. It frankly seems
unlikely(but not impossible) that teener will be anywhere near that, and You stated"100-110 MPH", that's a monumental amount of HP spread Dude!! Like the diff between runs
@13.2 & 12.2 sec., where do You realistically expect to be? O/D is nice, but as has been discussed & I have warned, just because You can cruise at a 2.76-like RPM, doesn't
mean it's safe to go ahead & drive like You're running them. You can easily exceed the prop-shafts critical speed if You hit the highway & get "top happy"!!
 
Over speeding a factory drive shaft could be vary dangerous! How ever, whether you put an overdrive trans in or you bolt on a over drive (GVOD)....The drive shaft will have to be shortened, and most certainly, would be part of the discussion at the drive line shop.
 
There are so many data holes in this thread it is impossible to give You any accurate advice at all. Either You're sticking w/25" dia. rollers or not. What stall converter, what is
the rated efficiency, & where does it actually stall behind the teener? You want a drag set-up, auto-X setup, or street/road course set-up? Right-on w/the previous post about
turning the MPH You're talking, the AAR I did heads for was hittin' 109, worked out roughly 340 at the wheels, He was test shifting as high as 7200 w/that 340. It frankly seems
unlikely(but not impossible) that teener will be anywhere near that, and You stated"100-110 MPH", that's a monumental amount of HP spread Dude!! Like the diff between runs
@13.2 & 12.2 sec., where do You realistically expect to be? O/D is nice, but as has been discussed & I have warned, just because You can cruise at a 2.76-like RPM, doesn't
mean it's safe to go ahead & drive like You're running them. You can easily exceed the prop-shafts critical speed if You hit the highway & get "top happy"!!


My main question was since I'm not gonna gear the car properly for a 3 speed would it be better to gear it so I'd only use the first two gears so they shift and finish at optimal rpm or really if there's any flaw with that idea.

Yes obviously I can't nail down the final ratio until I run it.

The engine will go through a few phases.

1st will be stock long block out of 5th Ave.
With isky 264 cam and Rhoads lifters and performer intake and carb and headers.
Plus a 50-100 hp shot of Nos.

2nd will swap 360 intake and pocket ported heads.

3rd since I want to use the car 9 months out of the year. I got to stay with LA heads cause of the cold months so want to fully port and upgrade the valves to 2.02/1.60 in the stock 302 heads with gasket matched performer intake (air conditioning). Plus allows a comparison between stock and ported 302 heads also 360 heads.

3rd rebuild the bottom end zero deck with a yet decided roller cam with Rhoads lifters hoping for a combo that will allow stock converter be used but carry the powerband up to 6000 ish.
 
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You "can" fit a 2.02 valve into a 302???? I think i would port the 302 and not......put a bigger valve in it.
You are wanting a eng that pulls from idle to 6000 rpm. rhoads lifters will help to stretch the power band but IN GENERAL, A pushrod motor will have a 2500 rpm power band so IF, you want a stock converter they usually stall round 1800 right? so 1800+ 2500........You are looking at a 1800 to 4300 rpm. rhoads lifter stretch it to Maybe 5400.
2.76 gears will feel right at home. But It's NOT going to pull to 6000 rpm.
You want to pull to 6000 rpm......6000- 2500.......I don't think a rhoads hyd lifter will give you another extra 1000 rpm but for theory we will consider this. Soo 6000-3500=2500 rpm range aka you need a 2500 stall converter and it will pull to 6000.
just some more thought to dance around into you head.:)
 
No way in hell would I run a pussy 25" tire on anything unless I was totally limited by space. Even then I would do my damndest to get around it.
 
No way in hell would I run a pussy 25" tire on anything unless I was totally limited by space. Even then I would do my damndest to get around it.

I get the appeal of running 28" tires understand they can hook better do like the look. But don't work with what I want to do with the car I could go low profile 17/18 I like some I see but mostly don't. And they change the gears I got to run 3.23 instead of 2.76 and 3.55 instead of 3.23 but the overall ratio basically stays the same.
 
You "can" fit a 2.02 valve into a 302???? I think i would port the 302 and not......put a bigger valve in it.
You are wanting a eng that pulls from idle to 6000 rpm. rhoads lifters will help to stretch the power band but IN GENERAL, A pushrod motor will have a 2500 rpm power band so IF, you want a stock converter they usually stall round 1800 right? so 1800+ 2500........You are looking at a 1800 to 4300 rpm. rhoads lifter stretch it to Maybe 5400.
2.76 gears will feel right at home. But It's NOT going to pull to 6000 rpm.
You want to pull to 6000 rpm......6000- 2500.......I don't think a rhoads hyd lifter will give you another extra 1000 rpm but for theory we will consider this. Soo 6000-3500=2500 rpm range aka you need a 2500 stall converter and it will pull to 6000.
just some more thought to dance around into you head.:)


Your can put 2.02 in the head.


Engines have more than a 2500 rpm powerband more like a 4000 rpm.

If my engine peaks at 5600 rpm it still would be making decent power by 6000 rpm since small displacement with good flowing heads don't fall off after peak.

Peak torque usually is around 1500 rpm less so 4100 and if done right can be relatively flat for 1500 to 2000 under that so low end power starts to come in around 2000-2500.

I want to use hydraulic roller with Rhoads lifters and hopefully bring the low end in by 1500 rpm.

Thinking of using something like this Voodoo cam.

Screenshot_20170327-061836.png
 
its going to be a compromise either way.. its gonna be a better daily driver or a better track car...

you want it to be a daily driver so build a real nice daily driver and whatever it does at the track it does.. don't see where the issue is here..

have a buddy that runs mid 12's at over 100mph with a mild 360 ,low gearset 904 and 3.23 gears.. runs a 26" tire on the street and a 24 or 25" slick at the track... works great for him...

my dart ran low 12's at 108mph with a simple 360 build, 3.91 gears and a 26" tire.. shifted at about 6000 rpm and went through the traps at about 5900rpm... on the street i used a 28" tire and still hated it because it was running too high a rpm for me and how i like to use the car...

i love the 2.94-3.23 gears for a street car. but i like to get on the highway and take a 3 hour drive at 80mph ..:) if you are just staying around town then a 3.55 or 3.91 gear may work for you..
 
Well, maybe I can offer a little something of a measuring stick. One of my Dusters is in the "boat" with your idea. I know you checked in a few times on my "low dollar 318 build", and I have 2.76 gears/904.
My shift point is about 5200 rpm's right now. I shift to 3rd gear about 100 ft before the finish line. IF I hold 2nd gear across the line, I'm at about 5400 rpm's at about 94 mph. So a quick guess, maybe 6200 rpm's would be about 105 mph??
I have stock converter, and about 26" tall tire.
 
Well, maybe I can offer a little something of a measuring stick. One of my Dusters is in the "boat" with your idea. I know you checked in a few times on my "low dollar 318 build", and I have 2.76 gears/904.
My shift point is about 5200 rpm's right now. I shift to 3rd gear about 100 ft before the finish line. IF I hold 2nd gear across the line, I'm at about 5400 rpm's at about 94 mph. So a quick guess, maybe 6200 rpm's would be about 105 mph??
I have stock converter, and about 26" tall tire.
What are your 60 foot times and what cam. that's an impressive time with 2.76 gears and 26" tires
 
I get the appeal of running 28" tires understand they can hook better do like the look. But don't work with what I want to do with the car I could go low profile 17/18 I like some I see but mostly don't. And they change the gears I got to run 3.23 instead of 2.76 and 3.55 instead of 3.23 but the overall ratio basically stays the same.

You thought about an overdrive of sorts?
 
O/D is nice, but as has been discussed & I have warned, just because You can cruise at a 2.76-like RPM, doesn't mean it's safe to go ahead & drive like You're running them. You can easily exceed the prop-shafts critical speed if You hit the highway & get "top happy"!!

You can go to a dealership today and buy a brand new vehicle with 4.10 gears and an Od or even a double OD trans.

They go down the interstate without issue. I'm not sure why our cars can't do the same?

I run 4.56's with a GVOD. Haven't had any issues. They knew what I was running when I ordered. Seems to work for the drag week guys pretty well.
 
What are your 60 foot times and what cam. that's an impressive time with 2.76 gears and 26" tires
The car stumbled bad out of the hole, I mean cough, sputtered, etc. I posted the E.T. slip on another thread. It was like 2.4 60 ft. K50052 cam kit from summit, a whopping 109 bucks for cam and lifters. :) Factory exhaust manifolds, factory converter, 120,*** miles on factory short block. Yep, running on them 41 year old rings with 120k on them. Factory 318 heads that I home ported and used the eddy springs (48 bucks).

Most impressive part of the E.T. slip to me was that it gained about 21 mph from the 1/8 to the finish. Most cars in this E.T. range gain about 17 mph the last 1/8th.
Hopefully I'll have some time to tune it, because it's in the 318 race :D
 
I remember reading part of your thread........going to have to sit down and read it all.
And now Back to your regularly scheduled program. :thankyou:
 
This is a really great thread
I have been down this road, running every 4 speed tranny Mopar makes, with almost every rear gear you can imagine, and finally adding the GVOD, and swapping even bigger chunks. I only ever went to the track two times.
I have an old "mobile dynamometer" called a DYNORAD. It Takes speed and Gforce readings, and generates horsepower data which you can plot on a graph, and see the shape of the engine output. If you enter your vehicle weight it will spit out mph numbers for the qtr. I used this device to ascertain an approximation of what my engines horsepower delivery might look like. From this I could see the trap rpm zone I should be in. Knowing that, I, like you, had the same choices, except using a 4 speed, my choices were 4th or third.
Well if you do the math, coming off the line at peak torque in first, and 4.88s, it is easily possible to generate torque into the rear axles in excess of 5000 ftlbs. And predictably, with street suspension, this is pure tirespin. Even with 325/50-15 DRs heated up and and at 12 psi. What I found was that even coming off the line at 2500 and at part throttle, and at slipping the clutch, the shift into second would blow the tires away.
So the point is this if you are going for ET, the 60ft is the principal thing and who cares what the Rs are thru the traps, almost. To get the 60ft working in those skinny wheelhouses is gonna take some special engineering on your part, and it all starts by not using those short skinny rollers.
But if trap speed is your goal, as it was mine, then it is more important to run all your horsepower, all of the time to generate the most average power thru the run.And that starts with knowing the shape of your horsepower output.
If your power peaks at 5200 and by 5400 it has dropped into the basement, there is no point to continue the revs 600 past the peak. On the other hand if she peaks at 5200. and by 5800 has fallen to just 95% of peak, perhaps you should be wringing out even higher. If you don't you could be leaving mph under the table.
Then there is the small matter of rpm drop during the shifts.
With a 904, the ratios are 2.45-1.45-1.00 and the 1-2 drop is to 59.2 %. So shifting at 6000, the drop will be to 3550. Your powerband will thus need to be from 3550 to 6000 or 2450rpm. That's a lot.
With an A999 the ratios are 2.74-1.54-1.00, and the 1-2 drop is to 56.2%. So again shifting at 6000, the Rs will drop to 3372. Your powerband will thus need to be from 3372 to 6000, or 2628. That is 178 rpm more than a lot. So even tho the A999 gives you a greater torque multiplication on the line, it steals it from the rest of the run.
Then there is the small matter of stall. The stall is used to adjust the engines torque at the starting line to deliver just enough torque thru the gear ratios to maximize take off with just the right amount of tirespin. Too much spin and the 60ft suffers. Too little, and the 60 ft suffers.
The stall can also be used to reduce the powerband requirement. Say you had a sub 3300 stall TC and your rpm drops to 3372 at the 1-2 shift. Well, your TC will be locked up and is not involved. But say you had a 4000TC. Now the TC is involved.Your Rs will not drop to 3372, where your engine has very little power, but rather, it will drop to about 4000, where your engine will have a lot of power. This how to generate more average power during the run. And more average power,means more MPH.
So with a mild 318 and just two gears, you are gonna have to pick one or the other, or just run it for the fun of it.

But If it was me I would do three things;
1) get some real traction back there, be it tires or traction aides or whatever, cuz 2.2 60fts plus, are embarrasing. And
2) I would get a handle on the powercurve so I could make a more educated shift change, and gear selection.And
3) I would throw the stock TC as far as I could. It will do nothing for either your 60ft nor your ET, nor your trap speed.

And BTW
To solve the age old dilemma, I too broke the bank by purchasing a GVOD. Now I have many gears to chose from. I use it as a splitter. I run 3.55s, 27inch tires, and a 3.09 low gear . I am geared for 4 ratios to 110mph at 6850rpm. The road ratios are; 10.97-8.56-6.43-5.01 . The street ratios are as in my sig and work out to 10.97-6.78-4.93-3.85-2.77, and 65=2236
Gone are the days of swapping chunks.

I have to agree with whoever said just GO! Run what you brung. Then think it over.
 
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You can go to a dealership today and buy a brand new vehicle with 4.10 gears and an Od or even a double OD trans.

They go down the interstate without issue. I'm not sure why our cars can't do the same?

I run 4.56's with a GVOD. Haven't had any issues. They knew what I was running when I ordered. Seems to work for the drag week guys pretty well.
Correction, You can go down to the dealership & buy a brand new vehicle ENGINEERED TO RUN 4.10's W/ 1 or 2 OD's, NOT a 40 or 50yr. old prop shaft just cut down
to size. I drive these cars every day & if You think they are vibration free, You ain't drove enough of 'em. They also hang all kinds of heavy-*** metal & rubber dampers
all over the drivetrain & exhaust, not to mention the use of CV's, elastomer couplers & damper rings on the prop-shaft. Frankly, I don't give a s**t about a little hum,
or if it seems "OK to Me" on the highway @80MPH, I'm talking about the prop shaft possibly failing as I said"getting top happy". That means taking up to or near it's
terminal velocity, which for any A-body w/oats is going to be an easy 140 if it isn't geared for the strip w/o OD. While the eng. can take it there w/the right final drive
ratio, it doesn't know or care what combo/method You used to get it there, or if the prop shaft is spinning 5500, or 6900!! You'd better know & be sure the one You're using is up to it, that is all I'm saying.
 
This is a really great thread
I have been down this road, running every 4 speed tranny Mopar makes, with almost every rear gear you can imagine, and finally adding the GVOD, and swapping even bigger chunks. I only ever went to the track two times.
I have an old "mobile dynamometer" called a DYNORAD. It Takes speed and Gforce readings, and generates horsepower data which you can plot on a graph, and see the shape of the engine output. If you enter your vehicle weight it will spit out mph numbers for the qtr. I used this device to ascertain an approximation of what my engines horsepower delivery might look like. From this I could see the trap rpm zone I should be in. Knowing that, I, like you, had the same choices, except using a 4 speed, my choices were 4th or third.
Well if you do the math, coming off the line at peak torque in first, and 4.88s, it is easily possible to generate torque into the rear axles in excess of 5000 ftlbs. And predictably, with street suspension, this is pure tirespin. Even with 325/50-15 DRs heated up and and at 12 psi. What I found was that even coming off the line at 2500 and at part throttle, and at slipping the clutch, the shift into second would blow the tires away.
So the point is this if you are going for ET, the 60ft is the principal thing and who cares what the Rs are thru the traps, almost. To get the 60ft working in those skinny wheelhouses is gonna take some special engineering on your part, and it all starts by not using those short skinny rollers.
But if trap speed is your goal, as it was mine, then it is more important to run all your horsepower, all of the time to generate the most average power thru the run.And that starts with knowing the shape of your horsepower output.
If your power peaks at 5200 and by 5400 it has dropped into the basement, there is no point to continue the revs 600 past the peak. On the other hand if she peaks at 5200. and by 5800 has fallen to just 95% of peak, perhaps you should be wringing out even higher. If you don't you could be leaving mph under the table.
Then there is the small matter of rpm drop during the shifts.
With a 904, the ratios are 2.45-1.45-1.00 and the 1-2 drop is to 59.2 %. So shifting at 6000, the drop will be to 3550. Your powerband will thus need to be from 3550 to 6000 or 2450rpm. That's a lot.
With an A999 the ratios are 2.74-1.54-1.00, and the 1-2 drop is to 56.2%. So again shifting at 6000, the Rs will drop to 3372. Your powerband will thus need to be from 3372 to 6000, or 2628. That is 178 rpm more than a lot. So even tho the A999 gives you a greater torque multiplication on the line, it steals it from the rest of the run.
Then there is the small matter of stall. The stall is used to adjust the engines torque at the starting line to deliver just enough torque thru the gear ratios to maximize take off with just the right amount of tirespin. Too much spin and the 60ft suffers. Too little, and the 60 ft suffers.
The stall can also be used to reduce the powerband requirement. Say you had a sub 3300 stall TC and your rpm drops to 3372 at the 1-2 shift. Well, your TC will be locked up and is not involved. But say you had a 4000TC. Now the TC is involved.Your Rs will not drop to 3372, where your engine has very little power, but rather, it will drop to about 4000, where your engine will have a lot of power. This how to generate more average power during the run. And more average power,means more MPH.
So with a mild 318 and just two gears, you are gonna have to pick one or the other, or just run it for the fun of it.

But If it was me I would do three things;
1) get some real traction back there, be it tires or traction aides or whatever, cuz 2.2 60fts plus, are embarrasing. And
2) I would get a handle on the powercurve so I could make a more educated shift change, and gear selection.And
3) I would throw the stock TC as far as I could. It will do nothing for either your 60ft nor your ET, nor your trap speed.

And BTW
To solve the age old dilemma, I too broke the bank by purchasing a GVOD. Now I have many gears to chose from. I use it as a splitter. I run 3.55s, 27inch tires, and a 3.09 low gear . I am geared for 4 ratios to 110mph at 6850rpm. The road ratios are; 10.97-8.56-6.43-5.01 . The street ratios are as in my sig and work out to 10.97-6.78-4.93-3.85-2.77, and 65=2236
Gone are the days of swapping chunks.

I have to agree with whoever said just GO! Run what you brung. Then think it over.


My main focus is streetablity.

The requirements is stock stall, decent rpm on Highway, ability to hook up decent set of tires that fit in Stock wheel wells. 10:1 weight to N/A net hp.

Even though I don't have a particular quarter mile goal I still want to optimize for best as I can.

I feel roller cam, nitrous and 2.76 gears will work well together to accomplish my goals.

I think the hydraulic roller cam with Rhoads lifters and 1.6:1 rockers will allow me to build a pretty wide powerband. And reach my 10:1 weight to power goal around 325 net hp. And for the track the use of 50 - 100 hp shot of Nitrous to round the power up to 400 - 425 hp which should help with the spread of 1st 2nd/final shift and get the overall speed up without increasing the overall powerband which will further work with the 2.76 gears. (Can fine tune with tire size)
 
Why fight the big compromise of highway or trap speed at track. Gear it for highway speed at rpm that you want with a bigger diam street tire. Then take it to strip & find what it will run. Then get a smaller diam tire that will get you your rpm at finish line. I have a duster with 408, 727, and 3.55 gears. With a 27.5" diam street tire it is fine on highway. When started at 1/8 mile track, I put on 26" MT drag radials that are 12" wide. Rear gear is not ideal for 1/8 as I can go thru trap at 6200 in 2nd or shift to 3rd before finish. Personaly I prefer to shift to 3rd and save the revs. When I went to 1/4 mile track, BINGO it was perfect for that combo. I finish at my shift point of 5900 rpm at 111-112 mph. Regardless of your mph, tire size, rpm: the whole thing is consistency for racing. Otherwise you are just chasing a fictional number for bragging.
 
why are ya limiting yourself to a stock converter?

Cause the car will be primarily a daily driver and fuel economy is also important plus stock converter is what i got and really have no ET goal even though high 12's would be nice.

Since I'm eventually using a hydraulic roller with 1.6 rockers the needed lift around .500" - .525" won't be a problem. Probably be cut on 112 since I want a broad powerband. And say 260/270 degrees will give me plenty of down low plus work with stock converter I can add 10 degrees to those numbers since I'm gonna be running Rhoads lifters which will also give me the top end.

Also AJ/formS with his 360
3.55 x 3.09 x .89 (27" tires) = 9.76
Has a problem hooking up his drag tires
I'm gonna be running less width less sticky
My overall 1st will be
2.76 x 2.74 x .96 = 7.26
Far off from AJ's but not to far from the average 3.55's x 2.45 x .89 = 7.74.

I think I'll be doing ok out of the hole plus I'll have the 75 hp shot of nitrous to round out my performance.
 
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