Grooving lifter bores

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Wheel Chock

Wheel Chock

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This question is for anyone familiar with the process of adding grooves to the lifter bores for the purpose of improving lubrication to the lobes on a flat tappet cam.
I am using the Comp Cams lifter bore grooving tool and in their instructions they say that for best results, the groves should be on the inboard side of the driver's side of the block and on the outboard side of the passenger's side (left hand drive), based on clockwise cam rotation. This makes sense to me on the passenger side, because the groove will line up with the oil gallery, but on the driver side the gallery is outboard and the groove will be on the opposite side of the bore. Am I wrong to think that the groove on the driver side would work better on the oil gallery side?
I called Comp cams Tech line and the guy knew nothing about the tool or Mopars, he just read the instructions back to me.
Don't bother suggesting a roller cam, this engine will use flat tappets.
 
Sounds like a lot of trouble when you could just get Crower Cam Saver lifters.
 
^^^ This..... and if you groove the bores, it only makes sense to me groove up on the top (towards the valley). I figure doing it on the bottom (gallery side) will result it in most of the oil just running off the bottom edge of the lifter and dropping down in to the crank area. I personally would not extend any groove to the top of the lifter bore, just high enough to be at the level of the lifter waist band when on the heel of the lobe.... which looks like what they indicate.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Sounds like a lot of trouble when you could just get Crower Cam Saver lifters.
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No trouble at all, the tool works quickly and efficiently and can be used on all Mopar engines. Using the Crower lifters would require purchasing them for every build, not to mention mixing lifters and cams from different manufacturers. The grooving tool is a 1 time purchase.
 
nm9stheham said:
^^^ This..... and if you groove the bores, it only makes sense to me groove up on the top (towards the valley). I figure doing it on the bottom (gallery side) will result it in most of the oil just running off the bottom edge of the lifter and dropping down in to the crank area. I personally would not extend any groove to the top of the lifter bore, just high enough to be at the level of the lifter waist band when on the heel of the lobe.... which looks like what they indicate.
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The groove is from the bottom and extends about 1/2 way up the bore. The idea is to increase oil to the lobe area and not the valley. The oil running off the lifter will contact the lobe before dropping to the crank area.
 
lrazor said:
No trouble at all, the tool works quickly and efficiently and can be used on all Mopar engines. Using the Crower lifters would require purchasing them for every build, not to mention mixing lifters and cams from different manufacturers. The grooving tool is a 1 time purchase.
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"I guess"

I've never had trouble mixin manufacturers with camshafts and lifters, since I always use good parts.

Usually, when you are tearing one down that far, you are buying new cam and lifters anyway. Either way will end up with pressurized oil at the lobe. I had actually never seen the tool before, myself. Thanks for sharing.
 
The directions with the tool are correct. I grooved the lifter bores on the 350 Chevy engine in my truck when I built it, probably 15 years ago. Oil pressure is just fine, by the way. Remember to massage the lifter bores to get rid of any sharp edges. If you want, PM me and I'll call you and try and explain, it can be confusing to figure out the why's and why not's. The oil goes right on the cam lobes just before the lifter rides on the lobes.

Russ.
 
Those lifter bores are under oil pressure all the time, and if you prime the engine with the intake off, you will see a ton of "leakage" around all 16 lifters. Adding a grove to each one would put a lot more oil leakage in the system for sure. MOST of the actual lubrication of the cam lobes comes from the crankshaft slinging oil off the throws. I would imagine adding 16 additional leaks would effect the oil pressure much the same as worn out lifter bores. Just my opinion, and something to think about.
 
The placement of the grooves coresponds to the area of the lifter face that contacts the cam lobe first. On a clockwise rotation the intake lobe hits the lifter on its "interior" side. On the exhaust lobe contacts on the "exterior" side.
To be honest - I don't see this doing much more than bleeding out oil pressure because both lobes are splash fed more from the crank than anything else and the lifter is rotating, tossing the oil out from the mating surface anyway. If you feel for some reason you need more - use the EDM lifters like RRR says. They feed oil from the center so it gets spun out to the mating surface area.
 
moper said:
The placement of the grooves coresponds to the area of the lifter face that contacts the cam lobe first. On a clockwise rotation the intake lobe hits the lifter on its "interior" side. On the exhaust lobe contacts on the "exterior" side.
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Ok, I'm trying to figure out what you just said. Are you saying that on the same bank, that the lifter bores would be grooved differently because of intake and exhaust lobes of the camshaft on that bank?

Russ.
 
Actually, the Crower Cam Saver lifters I recommended have grooves in the sides that do the same as what the lifter bore tool does. It still supplies pressurized oil to the lifters. I spoke with Crower directly and they said there is no change in oil pressure. I also know someone locally who runs them and he has no oil pressure problems.

I don't see a problem with grooving the bores or using the Crower lifters. If either cause problems, the tool nor the lifters would not sell. And quite obviously, they do.
 
Rusty,

There is no problem grooving the lifter bores, you just want to groove the bore on the correct side to oil the cam lobe before it rides under the lifter. If there is an oil pressure difference, I doubt you'd see it, maybe a couple of pounds at most. In my GMC truck, I built the motor years ago, and it runs great. Ask Leeana, she's been in it a few times. The groove amounts to a little more than a deep scratch, and it goes from the main lifter oil galley to the bottom of the lifter bore. Actually, it goes from the bottom of the bore up to the lifter oil galley (using the tool, you pull "up"). Same difference.

Russ.
 
It's up o 182.57 now. Somebody musta caught their mistake.

....but before they did, I snagged the one for 1.69. It was like 7.68 with shippin. I got the order confirmation email. I will let yall know if it shows up. lol
 
RustyRatRod said:
It's up o 182.57 now. Somebody musta caught their mistake.

....but before they did, I snagged the one for 1.69. It was like 7.68 with shippin. I got the order confirmation email. I will let yall know if it shows up. lol
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Nice!
 
comp cams has solid flat lifters with an edm oil hole. I have not needed extra oil to my 20 years and still revving solid flat Melling lifters with .550" lift comp cam
 
replicaracer43 said:
MOST of the actual lubrication of the cam lobes comes from the crankshaft slinging oil off the throws. Just my opinion, and something to think about.
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moper said:
To be honest - I don't see this doing much more than bleeding out oil pressure because both lobes are splash fed more from the crank than anything else and the lifter is rotating, tossing the oil out from the mating surface anyway..
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I can't help but wonder how many of the camshaft/lifter failures happened using the rod bearing shells without the squirt hole.. The squirt hole was to align with the cross drilled crank to get a straight shot of oil, timed, when the other end of the hole aligned with the cam bearing hole.. I was taught that was to squirt oil on the cylinder wall,, but I wonder how mucha the "overspray" would shoot at the cam lobes, and reduce the wear/failure,,.. just thinking out loud..

I've always used the squirt hole shell,, even if I have to mod the shells myself.. and never had a failure.. fwiw

jmo...
 
Yeah - sorry. I confused the lobes with sides...lol.
Driver's side lifters need to be oiled on the interior (valley) side. Passenger's side lifters need to be oiled from the exterior (cylinder bore) side.

Like I said - trying to feed the lifter face from the edge of the bore is as effective as pissing next to a campfire to put it out. The lifter is spinning. At idle it's about 30-40rpm. At 3K it's winging around at 90rpm. That centrifugal force is not letting it get anywhere near the mating surfaces of the lifter face and lobe. The real EDM lifters have the oil hole is placed offset on the lifter base, and is only .010-.12". So the oil comes out and either goes right between the two, or gets flung outward from near center accress the lifter face. That's how it helps. That's pissing right on the fire.
 
Since it's pressurized oil, I disagree. The pressure will help direct the oil.
 
inertia said:
I can't help but wonder how many of the camshaft/lifter failures happened using the rod bearing shells without the squirt hole.. The squirt hole was to align with the cross drilled crank to get a straight shot of oil, timed, when the other end of the hole aligned with the cam bearing hole.. I was taught that was to squirt oil on the cylinder wall,, but I wonder how mucha the "overspray" would shoot at the cam lobes, and reduce the wear/failure,,.. just thinking out loud..

I've always used the squirt hole shell,, even if I have to mod the shells myself.. and never had a failure.. fwiw

jmo...
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THIS!!!

Many times older engine parts like bearing shells get superseded by later specifications. In our case, replacement rod bearing inserts for LA engines are typically Magnum engine parts. While they may physically interchange, they are not always backwards compatible. The oiling hole/notch on the big end of rods went away a while back for a couple reasons. First, later roller cams don't need as much splash lubrication, and second, by removing the squirter, the oil load on the piston rings is reduced allowing for lower tension oil rings while still maintaining oil control. This is generally a good thing as tighter oil control not only extends catalyst life (think 100K mile warranty), but also reduces detonation, which in the age of spark-knock feedback ignition control translates into increased efficiency.

But here's the rub, when we reduce the amount of oil slinging around the crankcase, we run the risk of underlubricating our oil dependent flat tappet cams. I think this is a bigger factor in cam/lobe wear failures than the reduction in ZDDP levels in current oils (which have come back down to levels similar to the oils available in the 60's). ZDDP being an anti-scuff agent really does not come into play unless the oil film breaks down. The best insurance against oil film break down is plenty of clean cool oil! Whether this oil is delivered through a grooved lifter bore, oil hole in the lifter face (Crower) or a small flat on the side of the lifter (Rhoades), or notched rod bearings, it is important to long cam and lifter life (I won't even get into the soft crap many cam blanks are made from).

A few years back when I rebuilt the Buick 350 in my Jeep Gladiator, I had to cut the notches in the bearing shells myself (I also went to full groove mains). The commonly available replacement parts are late model 3800 V-6 bearings. Going down the highway at 3000+ RPM (4.10 gears) I have no doubt that everything gets plenty of oil. But since it is still a working/hunting/camping/fishing/expedition rig, I was far more concerned with the ability to idle for extended periods at low RPM and not have anything run dry. So far, so good after 35K of abuse.

Long story short, grooving lifter bores on a street engine will probably pay benefits. And, since most install the larger M72HV oil pump during rebuilds, there is plenty of oil delivery to support this (the stock pump would probably be adequate).
 
RustyRatRod said:
Since it's pressurized oil, I disagree. The pressure will help direct the oil.
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Respectfully I agree to disagre. Help direct it, yes. Keep it where it's actually needed - no. I can't see how at any point a stream of oil on the side of a rotating lifter can help the face.
 
Pretty simple, really. Because the lobe is not centered with the lifter. At some point in the rotation, the side of the lifter will cross paths with the lobe.

Are you trying to say the techs at Crower are stupid?
 
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