Had a ideer for a A/C system

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1973dusterkid

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Ok so on the way home I have an ideer. I looped the hose on my car so there is no water going to the heater core. But what if, I took a hose that had a 5/8 end and a 1/2 end the hose would be about 2 foot long. What if I put a small 12v inline water pump and a small motorcycle inline water color and then you circulate water and cool just through the heater core and when you turn on the fan you blow air off the cold water would it work guys and do you know how good the motorcycle water coolers work. The hose would be hooked to just the two heater core inlet/outlets.

Does anyone know what temp the motorcycle inline water coolers cool the water to.

It might be a little rigged but if it saves an 800 dollar ac setup I can deal with it.
 
Not effective. What WOULD work, but might be impractical to implement would be an "evaporative cooler"

Google "evaporative cooling tower"

These work sort of like a swamp cooler, more correctly, "evaporative cooler"

How an evaporative cooler works, BEST in hot DRY climates, one like this:

This one is handily opened up for service. The bottom is a tank, just like a toilet, has a float valve from the water plumbing which keeps the tank full. It has a small pump, which pumps water up to nozzles on the three sides holding the media panels, which are removed

The media panels have a "V" trough at the top, with holes ever inch or so in the bottom, the pump throws water in the troughs, the water dribbles down through the media, and the blower pulls are through the media, causing "evaporative cooling."


THE DIFFERENCE between this and an EVAPORATIVE WATER TOWER is that a water tower simply pulls air through the media AND COOLS THE WATER which flows back to the tank.

THIS WATER, now cold, is then fed to an off-site HEAD EXCHANGER (such as a liquid to refrigerant condenser for a refrigeration unit) and is used in that exchanger

IN THIS CASE would be your heater core.

So your problem will be

1 Building an evaporative cooling tower which can "fit into" the cars styling,

2 operate while going down the road at 50, 70, 80, 145 mph without throwing excessive water all over the car, the windshield, etc etc

3 incorporate a tank (in the trunk?) to keep the cooling tower replenished

4 and the simple part, after all that, circulate the water through your heater core.


Makes a real AC system look pretty good, no?



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Cooling tower:

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Some of these are huge You can SEE how this one works. See the blue arrows on the piping, the return water (carries the heat absorbed from the load/ condenser) is pumped to the top of the unit where it is atomized and sprayed down in the cavity of the beast in droplets.

The fan (at the top) sucks air in through the grated windows at the bottom pulls the air up through the water droplets, causing evaporative cooling.

The heat and evaporated water is ejected out the top, and under the right conditions forms what amounts to a rain cloud above the unit.

The cooled water is then pulled from the tank below (CWS means Cold Water Supply) and fed back to the load

Like all cooling towers, some mechanism must be in place to constantly replenish the water lost to evaporation

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what if I just ran the hoses to a small fuild radatior behind the grill

And it makes a ac sytem look real good but its still 800-900 dollars
 
As I said, it simply won't be effective. Your cowl vents will do far better
 
It won't cool the air to any less than what the outside air temperature is. It simply cannot.

It's theoretically possible that the pump will heat the water somewhat.

And an evaporative cooler? In a car? I have a hard enough time keeping them from rusting on the outside...

Roll your windows down, plan your route.
 
And an evaporative cooler? In a car? I have a hard enough time keeping them from rusting on the outside...

Roll your windows down, plan your route.

If it was a great idea, "everybody" would be doing it

Doncha remember the old coolers hanging out the window?

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AND lest we forget.........................

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No idea.......................

image.axd
 
I cant remember how all the ac components work, but I believe part of the cooling of the air is when the refrigerant changes state.....liquid to gas then back to liquid again.....I think
 
What in 'ell am I doing up this late??


And that is also how swamp coolers work. When you evaporate water from liquid to vapor, this is known as a "change of state."

This is known variously as "heat of vaporization", or if going the other way, "heat of condensation", etc

For example, if you raise the temerature of a pound (about a pint) of water from just above freezing to the boiling point under standard conditions (sea level atmospheric) that's 32F to 212F, or a change of 180 degrees F. For that one pound of water, that's therefore a change of 180 BTU in heat---which ain't all that much.

HOWEVER if you take that 1 pound of water and BOIL it down to the last drop gone, water has a "heat of vaporization" of 970 BTU per pound. THAT'S RIGHT!!! Nearly 1000 BTU for boiling off 1 pound of water!!

All substances which can exist in liquid and vapor form have similar properties, that is, much MORE heat is required to vaporize the liquid into vapor, and the SAME amount of heat is required to condense the vapor back to a liquid

THIS IS IN FACT the very basis of refrigeration systems. You cannot just "pump" the liquid or gas refrigerant around and around.

Med. temp, high pressure liquid is forced through a "control device", a capillary tube, an orifice, or thermal expansion valve. This huge change in pressure going from the liquid line, through the big drop in pressure entering the evaporator (which the compressor has lowered the pressure of) causes the liquid to "flash boil" which LOWERS it's temperature

(This is why air tools get COLDER as you use them instead of HOTTER--the air and the humidity in the air drops pressure tremendously as it exits the air tool, and drops the temperature of the air)

The evaporating liquid refrigerant (boiling) has now entered the evaporator and is ACCEPTING or ABSORBING heat from the hot air entering the evaporator fins pushed by the blower. This hot air exchanges heat into the boiling, evaporating refrigerant, and FURTHER boils off any remaining liquid, which of course REMOVES heat from the air, and out it comes from the supply side of the evap fins as ----nice cool air.

So now the boiled off refrigerant --which STILL is somewhat cool in a properly operating system, ----goes into the compressor inlet where it helps COOL the compressor valves and head, and in a home unit/ refrigerator, where the compressor is "hermetically sealed" it ALSO cools the drive motor.

The compressor compresses the refrigerant. An unwanted but unavoidable side effect of this compression is HEAT known, as, "heat of compression."

The hot, high pressure refrigerant now goes to the condenser, where relatively cool air -- pushed by vehicle speed, or a great big blower -- exchanges heat into the air and CONDENSES back to a liquid-----

and around and around we go.

This is why when you release CO2 from a cylinder, it forms "snow" -- the escaping CO2 cools rapidly through the orifice formed by the valve. It's why your hands get "too cold" if you handle thinner, cleaning solvents, gasoline, or any other volatile liquid. The RAPIDLY evaporating liquid produces a cooling effect

This "heat of condensation" or vaporization is ALSO why so called "90% plus" or "condensing" furnaces are able to obtain efficiencies of WELL over 90% AFUE.

What happens is this: The furnace burns propane or natural gas in a HOPEFULLY fairly efficient (80%) burner, which works much like older 70-80% AFUE furnaces in many cases.

THIS combustion produces LOTS of HOT water vapor AND superheated steam, which waltzes right out the vent and is wasted!!!

BUT in a "condensing" furnace, the first thing the circulating blower "sees" is the "secondary heat exchanger." AFTER the condensing furnace combusts the gas in what (can) amount(s) to a fairly standard burner, the hot, water vapor laden combustion products go through the "primary" heat exchanger, give up some of the heat in those gases, and then enter the SECONDARY heat exchanger.

In many furnaces, this secondary heat exchanger looks MUCH like an A/C evaporator, IE a finned heat exchanger. THE BLOWER, forcing cool "return" air from the conditioned space, REMOVES heat from the secondary exchanger, and this heat exchange----------------

CONDENSES the hot steam and water vapor out of the combustion gases. In many of these furnaces, often vented !!! with PVC!!! pipe, the vent gas temeratures are COOLER than the warm supply air leaving the plenum and going to the conditioned space!!!

Now this CONDENSED water simply drains off, rather than going up the vent!!!

(This is where the nearly 1000 BTU/ pound comes in --- for every POUND of water that drains out of a condensing furnace, that is NEARLY a thousand BTU that otherwise would have gone straight up the vent)

See below the generic representation of a condensing furnace. This one has the burner at the top, with an "induced draft" blower at the bottom. The induced draft blower encourages a draft through the system and out the vent, the burner fires into the top of the heat exchanger, and the hot gases make their way down through the primary, then the secondary heat exchanger.

Meanwhile the main circulating blower (at the bottom) forces "return" air from the house up through the two heat exchangers, removing heat from the heat exchangers, and causing the condensing effect.

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I know how you feel Dusterkid I once had an 'idea' before a long trip, I wrapped a few of those blue plastic freezer things in wet washcloths and fastened up to the vents, called it 'Mexican Air Conditioning' (no offense to any Mexican people) but it did not work well.
 
Evaporative cooling sure won't work in Georgia. The last thing you need there is more water in the air. When I live in the Mojave Desert, even factory AC couldn't keep up. You see people with towels hung in the side windows to block the evil afternoon sun. Some wet a towel and wrap it around their head like an Arab.
 
I cant remember how all the ac components work, but I believe part of the cooling of the air is when the refrigerant changes state.....liquid to gas then back to liquid again.....I think
When you compress the gas (in this case it goes to a liquid state) it heats up. Then you cool it off to ambient temp.
That heat energy from cooling it off is now gone from the system.

Then when it expands out and becomes a gas again, the temp drops. It doesn't necessarily have to become a gas, but that does help the process. Just like when you compress something and it heats up(releases heat TO the environment), if you decompress it, it cools off (absorbs heat from the environment). Remember, "heat" only flows from hot to cold.

Since the system cooled off, it absorbs heat from its surroundings (Like, the cabin of your car).

Simple! The change from liquid to gas and back certainly helps, but is not required. The change from liquid to gas is the precise (and only) mechanism that swamp coolers operate on. The efficiency of phase change varies depending on some variables, but as mentioned, it's a part of it.
 
I don't know how this would work out but its not 800 bucks and with a accesory usb adaptor it could help some on a hot road trip.
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Small-Fan-Mini-Air-Conditioner-convenient/dp/B002F8IFV6/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1337526943&sr=8-6"]http://www.amazon.com/Small-Fan-Mini-Air-Conditioner-convenient/dp/B002F8IFV6/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1337526943&sr=8-6[/ame]
 
Then when it expands out and becomes a gas again, the temp drops. It doesn't necessarily have to become a gas, but that does help the process.

Simple! The change from liquid to gas and back certainly helps, but is not required. .

Sorry, not true.

Phase change in the refrigerant IS necessary, and FUNDAMENTAL to the refrigeration process.

As I explained earlier, water, as example, only absorbs or gives up 1 BTU / pound per degree of change in temperature F

But it absorbs / gives up nearly ONE THOUSAND BTU of heat energy in the phase change from liquid to vapor or back again.

This compares, as explained earlier, the pittance of change all the way from freezing to boiling, a tiny 180 BTU!!!

It is this TREMENDOUS increase that IS in fact "the refrigeration effect."

(I'm using water only as an example, and water IS the standard that the BTU formula is based upon. IT is important to understand that OTHER substances give up less or more heat per unit weight that water, and this is known as the "specific heat" of the substance. Water is "1" Aluminum is only .22, and Copper is only .09!!!!

(This means that you can change the temperature of a pound of aluminum with only 22% of the heat that it takes to raise a pound of water 1*F

What this means is, it is important to realize that different substances and materials have vastly different characteristics

(On a side note, when I was in the HVAC/R field, "we" almost exclusively used BTUs and 'merican units. You can measure this stuff in anything from calories, joules, moles, or donkies per fortnight.

I drive my car in miles per hour, and I buy my steak by the pound. And even though I live close to the magic line that delineates "the great white north," I think in degrees F. No Michael Moore involved, thank you very much.
 
Okay so I had done some looking before in regards to something like this and I stumbled on a instructable.com article. The guy had used a sump pump in a ice chest filled with ice and water and a 12 volt fan out the top with a heater core below it. The pump would push water through the heater core and the fan would suck cold air while another would push warm air.

I had thought about the design and came up with a slightly better idea which also would work. You use the same idea but instead use some hard insulation under the heater core and above the ice. This would allow the ice to stay cold longer. Furthermore you could go further and use the heater core and fan in our cars. One issue with this though is condensation on the heater core would need some place to go.

I like the idea of simply fill a cooler with some ice and water and cooling the car. The guy claimed he could reduce the ambient temp 30 degrees in a few minutes. Also to drop the temp of the ice water add some salt. I am not sure how well the salt will work with the heater core though.
 
30 degrees? Talk is cheap, I say

Here's a little on A/C. You might have heard the term so many "ton" or "tons" of A/C. A "ton" of A/C is 12000 BTU/ hour. That is in theory the amount of heat it takes to melt a ton (2000 US pounds) of ice from solid ice at 32F to all liquid. This is the SAME IDEA as discussed above in regards to the heat required to boil water, known as "heat of vaporization" or "enthalpy of vaporization" except, now, instead of "changing state" from liquid to vapor (or reverse) we are now "changing state" from solid to liquid (or reverse)

For ice to water, (or any other substance from solid to liquid) this term is "heat of fusion" or "enthalpy of fusion"

Where vaporizing water is 970 BTU per pound, water's enthalpy of fusion is 144 BTU per pound. So you multiply 144 BTU X 2000 LB (of ice) and this gives you 28,8000BTU. You divide this by 24 to get to "an hour's worth", so 28,8000/ 24 = 12000 and we have our "12000 BTU / hour"

THE POINT IS THIS

A 12000 BTU AC unit is NOT very darn big. Most small, cheap "window bangers" are somewhere around this capacity, and as you surely know, they won't cool much of a space So think about that tiny, cheap "window banger" as being a real live ton of ice out there melting away.

One figure I've seen rates "typical" auto A/C systems at 4hp, or somewhere in the 3-4 ton range, not a toy, but other figures show more like 1 1/2 ton, or about 18,000 BTU/hour

The "REALLY BIG TEST" for any of these ideas people have is simply this:

If this is such a great idea, why isn't everybody doing it?
 
Honestly I think part of why this works is it pulls moisture out of the air because of the condensation on the heater core. Also simply exchange warm air with cool air will make a difference and while I agree that 30 degrees sounds like a crock I am sure it would be noticeable. As a side note most people do not spend an hour or more in there car so even if the ice would last for 30 to 45 minutes just to cool the air at least some it would help.

I have not personally tried this I only saw the build and thought it was intriguing.
 
Removing humidity out of a "conditioned space" (the inside of your car) will give you a certain amount of "feeling cooler" because, in general, hot dry air feels cooler than hot humid air. Your perspiration evaporates more readily in dry air.

You cannot effectively COOL a space until you get at least some of the moisture OUT of the air, because this humidity IS IN FACT "heat" in the air.

To put this another way, it is EASIER to cool a space full of DRY air than it is to cool a space full of HUMID air.
 
Sorry, not true.

Phase change in the refrigerant IS necessary, and FUNDAMENTAL to the refrigeration process.

As I explained earlier, water, as example, only absorbs or gives up 1 BTU / pound per degree of change in temperature F

But it absorbs / gives up nearly ONE THOUSAND BTU of heat energy in the phase change from liquid to vapor or back again.

This compares, as explained earlier, the pittance of change all the way from freezing to boiling, a tiny 180 BTU!!!

It is this TREMENDOUS increase that IS in fact "the refrigeration effect."

(I'm using water only as an example, and water IS the standard that the BTU formula is based upon. IT is important to understand that OTHER substances give up less or more heat per unit weight that water, and this is known as the "specific heat" of the substance. Water is "1" Aluminum is only .22, and Copper is only .09!!!!

(This means that you can change the temperature of a pound of aluminum with only 22% of the heat that it takes to raise a pound of water 1*F

What this means is, it is important to realize that different substances and materials have vastly different characteristics

(On a side note, when I was in the HVAC/R field, "we" almost exclusively used BTUs and 'merican units. You can measure this stuff in anything from calories, joules, moles, or donkies per fortnight.

I drive my car in miles per hour, and I buy my steak by the pound. And even though I live close to the magic line that delineates "the great white north," I think in degrees F. No Michael Moore involved, thank you very much.
I simply described moving heat via compression and expansion, not limited to liquid-vapor refrigeration in particular.
As I mentioned, phase change is not required, but certainly helpful. The first functional machine to change water to ice proved it.
 
Exactly what "first functional machine are you referring to?"

Perhaps the work of Linde? Hardly practical for home or portable use, although early refrigeration of things like trucks WAS carried out by a "total loss" process of releasing CO2. Not very cost effective, eh?

And even this CERTAINLY involves a phase change IE the sublimation of solid dry ice to a gas, or boiling off something like liquid nitrogen

Or, hell I don't know, maybe you mean a vortex tube? Those things use one HELL of a lot of air, I would guess that an on-board engine driven compressor large enough to cool the car would take every bit of HP that a conventional A/C system, and the NOISE it would make would be terrific.

But I grow tired of guesswork, and refer to my earlier statement, which has served me well:

IF IT'S SUCH A GREAT IDEA, then why ain't everybody doin' it?
 
I say for on the cheap, tint the windows, put some insulation on the firewall and get a fan like the school bus drivers have. you could also try and figure a way to get some air to your back and *** as these are generaly the hottest places because you are sitting on them, one of those 70's bead seat covers might work. Other than that cobble together some ac parts.
 
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