Help Firing Dad's Dart up Again - SOS - No Spark After Hosing Off the Dust

Slant 6 Engines

  1. Stephen Hotz

    Stephen Hotz FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    1. Grab a rebuild kit from Orielly's/Autozone/etc. grab a carb kit for a holley 4160 and swap the needle and seat and the accelerator diaghram.
    2. Pull needle and seat and clean with brake cleaner and steel wool. (If desperate and in a jam).
     
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    • rosspulliam

      rosspulliam Active Member

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      Thanks, info passed along! They're done for tonight. They're going to get back after it in the morning. They're way ahead of where we thought they'd get to by this point so hopefully with 2 days to go we can get this sorted. Really appreciate the responses to all of my questions so far. You guys are some of the best!

      We're brainstorming ways to break the news to him on Thursday. I'm planning to leave out right after them and take a slightly different route and beat them home. Our first idea was to just park it in Mom's spot in the garage so when they got home it would be in the way. My brother's latest idea is for him to just be at home, and tell Dad that he can't be mad about what happens next, and shoot me a message to drive the car home and pull into the driveway. Who's got other ideas? :)
       
    • Enjoying it again

      Enjoying it again Active Member

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    • Enjoying it again

      Enjoying it again Active Member

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      What was the issue with the lack of spark? Now with the carb issue but oh so close guys. Keep up the great work. Must be getting physically tired and mentally exhausted. It is so worth it though. You will cherish these memories for as long as you live. Great job posting. Prayers are with you.
       
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      • Dave 74 Dart

        Dave 74 Dart Well-Known Member

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        This is absolutely a great " feel good" story . Kudos to you and your brothers! However you decide to do the big " reveal " , I'm sure the look on your mom and dad's face will make all the hard work/ late nights worth while. Merry Christmas to you and your family!
         
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        • 67Dart273

          67Dart273 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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          Do yourself a big favor. Get yourself a reprint or original factory service manual, which are available here and there on CD. The manual for a 73 is available free over at MyMopar, but there are significant wiring differences between 73 and 74

          Also bypass the seat belt interlock. Look under the hood near the fender apron or firewall lfor a small box with a reset button. There should be two "yellowish" wires. Splice those together

          Here:

          1974 duster seat belt interlock module removal
           
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          • rosspulliam

            rosspulliam Active Member

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            Turns out the ignition module I ordered (this one Standard Motor Ignition Modules LX101) only has 4 pins, and Dad's car required 5 pins. Fortunately the one that I sent from my turn apart '75 was the right one. They switched it on and got spark right away. Not sure how I picked the wrong one, but I'm glad I sent the one off my car as a spare.

            They're currently hunting for a 4160 carb kit in town, and they think they just found one. The 2 big items today are the carb and swap out the shifter. None of them know the shift pattern on the shifter that Dad put it in, and they can't find P/R/N/D. I can do it, but I can't seem to clearly explain it to them, so I think the plan is to just swap it out to something we know, and then we can always put Dad's back in if he really wants it.

            I hate missing out on the build, but there are going to be a thousand other things the car needs that I can help with, and knocking out all of this big stuff so it can move under it's own power while he's here with me is hopefully going to be a bit of motivation to get him out and tinkering with it again. His gift on Christmas is a PST rebuild kit for the suspension, and I've saved 5 days of vacation to go up in spring and help him put it on.
             
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            • rosspulliam

              rosspulliam Active Member

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              Hah, if you knew my Dad, you'd know that there is no way there is a seat belt interlock anywhere left. That man will listen to a modern car ding at him for hours before he puts a seat belt on. It drives me bonkers. I'll let them know that is a thing, though, in case they run into any problems.
               
            • kgip2k

              kgip2k Well-Known Member

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              First off I just want to say Thank you for doing what you are doing. I hope all goes well, which it sounds like it is. Looking forward to more updates, and would love to see a video of when he sees it and gets to hop in and fire it up.
               
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              • rosspulliam

                rosspulliam Active Member

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                Carb is rebuilt, car runs and idles, we know it has reverse. She'll be on the ground here in a few and move under her own power for the first time in over 30 years! My brother and friends are absolutely crushing it. Apparently the turn signal switch is not functioning causing there to be no breaks or turn signals. I'm wondering if that was the wiring that caused Dad to stop driving it when he did. My little brother had just been born (kid #4) and I'm wondering if it just got parked and he lost track of time. Having kids of my own I could totally see how it could have happened that way.

                I'm guessing on Thursday we may get some more stories out of him. I can't wait!
                 
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                • rosspulliam

                  rosspulliam Active Member

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                  Success! This accomplishes exactly what we set out to achieve. it doesn't run perfect, he's got lots of room to improve and tinker, but at least he can stop towing it from spot to spot and drive it instead! Under it's own power for the first time since 1986, the year my little brother (the driver in the video) was born.
                  Backing it out:
                  https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid...DA92E1353A89C3!210505&authkey=AFGXNiJTcGMOpT8

                  Taking off down the road:
                  https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid...DA92E1353A89C3!210506&authkey=ADjAQrMLNu7lS8g

                  Hope you all enjoyed the ride so far, I'll be back with any more updates and hopefully some video of the reveal. All of us 4 kids will be coming in on Thursday to deliver it (we're spread out between Kansas City, Dallas, and Denver) so it should be a real sight to behold. I think the plan is to have everyone but me be at the house when they get home, as they'd never expect me to follow them north after being at my house for a week. And then once they get all excited and settle down a little bit my brother will tell them they've got one more surprise, and he'll message me and I'll bring the car up from Dad's shop which about 2 blocks away from the house. Should be pretty epic!
                   
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                  • gunbunny

                    gunbunny Well-Known Member

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                    If that's a 74, it could be the seat belt interlock relay. Here is a nice article written by @slantsixdan
                    Bypass it and be shed of it. They're nothing but a PIA.
                     
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                    • 4spdragtop

                      4spdragtop Well-Known Member

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                      Very cool! Thanks for videos!
                      Not sure how to surprise him, but its Christmas time. Someone put on a Santa suit and pull up in driveway with a big bow on it?
                       
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                      • KosmicKuda

                        KosmicKuda FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                        That's awesome! It drives and made the 1-2 shift perfectly! There are lots of car commercials on during the holidays with cars parked in the driveway wearing big bows. Can you park it outside the house without him seeing (or hearing) it and get him outside with some excuse about going somewhere? Going out to a Restaurant or something like that?

                        .........

                        Growing up in the 60's, my dad had 3 different a bodies up through a new 1973 Dart Swinger and a 1963 Dodge 330 all slant powered. His all time favorite car was a 1940 Plymouth convertibe.

                        I was always Mopar crazy and have had 5 different 67-69 Barracudas, all small blocks. Well, my current 1964 Valiant convertible is a 225 and sometimes I'll be out cruising and stop in the cemetery just to park it near his grave. Thanks dad! Love the slanty convertible.
                         
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                        • rosspulliam

                          rosspulliam Active Member

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                          They were about to load it up and trailer it back home and they lost spark :(. They checked the interlock and everything else and suspect the ignition module I sent may have went out. It's the one I took off my car in 2006, so it's not new, but I'm surprised it may have quit so quickly. I have no way to know if he was having trouble keeping ignition modules in it and that's why he parked it. They found a couple modules locally and are off to get one and see if that gets it running again.

                          The roller coaster isn't over yet =x.

                          What's kind of cool about this car is that it's the one and only car Dad ever bought brand new. Kind of crazy to think he's had it for 45 years now!
                           
                        • rosspulliam

                          rosspulliam Active Member

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                          SOS: New Module didn't solve it. Open to troubleshooting ideas as they work through this new problem. They're busy troubleshooting trying to figure out what's happened. My brother said they're not getting spark out of the coil anymore. They hosed off the dirt, so clearly water got somewhere it shouldn't have.
                           
                        • rosspulliam

                          rosspulliam Active Member

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                          Apparently they've resolved the ignition issues, and now are still not having any spark out of the coil. Happy to hear ideas of what would cause no spark after hosing off 30 years worth of dust and grime :(.
                           
                        • rosspulliam

                          rosspulliam Active Member

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                          Just swapped my distributor in to see if that changes anything, thinking maybe the pickup isn't signaling the ECU for some reason after getting hosed off.
                           
                        • rustyswinger

                          rustyswinger Well-Known Member

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                          You have to be 100% certain you have excellent ground on your ignition control module. You have had it off and on again, check and double check! May be a simple as that.
                           
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                          • rosspulliam

                            rosspulliam Active Member

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                            They're going connection by connection now looking for any issues. They've tried various ECUs, ballasts, coils, and swapped the distributor. Still not getting good spark. We aren't sure why these pins on the ballast are jumped, anyone have any ideas? This is so frustrating, we had the damn thing going!

                            [​IMG]
                             
                          • rosspulliam

                            rosspulliam Active Member

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                            They're tracing wires and connections. This has got to be a bad connection somewhere. The coil ohms out fine (1.4 ohm on the primary coil and 9800 on the secondary). The ballast resistor checks out. At this point it's just a matter of if they'll have time to find it or not. We weren't going to reveal the car until Thursday, my buddy (the real hero here with decades of professional experience hot rods) may just hold on to the car and work on it if he has time over the next few days and hopefully sort it out before Thursday. At which point we'll either figure out how to get the car back to Dad's (30 minutes away) before they can drive back from Texas or we'll just take Dad to Ryan's house and do the reveal there. Either way, I'm amazed at how much progress they've made in such short time. We're || close!
                             
                          • 67Dart273

                            67Dart273 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                            MAKE CERTAIN the ECU is grounded. MUST

                            Here's a post I made about the simplest way I know to get across testing the ECU/ ignition parts

                            You need a coil, the ECU and the distributor

                            Lay it out on the bench. Follow the diagram. Find the two distributor pickup terminals on the ECU. Hook them to the distributor

                            Hook the ECU case to battery NEG

                            Coil does NOT need grounded

                            Distributor does NOT need grounded.

                            Hook coil + to the power lead terminal on the ECU. Get a clip lead hooked there and let dangle. This is your battery "hot" when you are ready

                            Hook something from coil "case" to a probe for testing spark.

                            Hook up your power clip lead. Twist the distributor shaft while holding the test probe near the coil tower. The thing should make sparks

                            If not, unhook distributor. Take first one, then the other pickup clip leads, and "tap tap" ground them at the battery connection. Coil should make 1 spark each time you do so.

                            If not, try another coil. If that does not fix it replace the ECU

                            IF you hook it all up and it WORKS, then there is something AFU in the car harness. SUSPECT a bad ECU connector OR a bad DISTRIBUTOR connector
                            =============================================
                            This is all you need to test the basics of the ignition. You can easily test the ballast separate. A battery, the ECU, distributor and a coil, and of course some test leads

                            (copy image location......................)

                            2ai0wsj-jpg-jpg-jpg.jpg



                            Below, the basic diagram for a 4 pin ECU

                            166lmj7-jpg-jpg-jpg.jpg

                            Below, the wire for testing spark. I use my 12V test light. No, LOL the spark won't blow up the bulb

                            166lmj7-jpg-jpg-jpg.jpg

                            Below, the ground connection. ALL you need is one wire from batt NEG to the ECU case

                            xawjl-jpg-jpg-jpg.jpg

                            Below, the two distributor connections. In the car these are polarity sensitive, but for testing does not matter

                            b3opvm-jpg-jpg-jpg.jpg

                            Below, the coil NEG connection

                            6jfywp-jpg-jpg-jpg.jpg

                            Below, battery PLUS connection, one wire to this terminal of ECU and jumpered over to + side of coil


                            11lqu5l-jpg-jpg-jpg.jpg

                            Below, all hooked up and ready to test (except for battery ground). Should produce sparks at least 3/8" and typically 1/2" long

                            1zzoya0-jpg-jpg-jpg.jpg

                            Below, distributor "one wire" test. I have removed the other distributor wire for simplicity. Take the bare connector end or this clip lead (the yellow) and with everything hooked up, ground it repeatedly. Each grounding should result in a spark (In this photo you need to hook up the ECU ground wire, I left it off for the photo)

                            vgitld-jpg-jpg-jpg.jpg


                            Some generalities

                            Suspect the distributor pickup connector. This is prone to bad connections and corrosion.. Remove ALL connectors and inspect them with a light for corrosion, and "work" them in/ out several times to scrub the terminals and to "feel" for tightness

                            Inspect the distributor for reluctor strike damage, shaft wobble and bushing looseness, and for debri and rust on the pickup or reluctor

                            Hook you meter, when set to LOW AC volts to the distributor connector and crank the engine. Distributor should generate about 1v AC

                            With the key in "run" take the disconnected engine harness end of the distributor connector. Tap the exposed end on ground. Should generate a nice hot single "snap" spark from the coil each time

                            DO NOT check spark with a resistor coil wire. "Rig" a test gap such as a store bought tester, or an over-gapped plug, with a solid core wire. System should generate at least 3/8 nice hot blue spark and typically more like 1/2" long

                            Measure coil+ voltage when in "run" and when in cranking. Should have AT LEAST 10.5V in crank

                            MAKE SURE ECU box is grounded. FOR SURE

                            Don't assume the ECU (or any other connector) is "good." I have found others have found, a poor connection at the ECU. THAT IS ONE REASON WHY in the test suggestions above, I USE CLIP LEADS to test

                             
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                            • 67Dart273

                              67Dart273 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                              1...Make sure ECU is grounded.

                              2....Turn key to "run" Check voltage at coil +. It should be somewhere between maybe 6 and maybe 11V Not much lower, nor much higher. If it is "same as battery" it means the coil is NOT drawing current to ground through the ECU box and that is bad

                              3.....Leaving meter on coil+ crank the engine using the key. You should get "same as battery" when cranking, and at least 10V, more is better.

                              4....With key in "run" "rig" a test spark gap with SOLID CORE wire from the coil tower to a gap/ tester/ spark plug. Disconnect the distributor, take up the engine harness end, and repeatedly tap the bare connector pin to ground. A "snap" spark should occur each time you do so
                               
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                              • rosspulliam

                                rosspulliam Active Member

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                                So, I'm not fully understanding this interlock that his car has. Apparently it is still installed and was giving them problems early on and preventing the car from cranking. Currently it is still hooked up and the car will crank but they're not getting spark. They can jump the 2 yellow wires together and still get crank with no spark. There is a blue wire that is hot that they can jump and the car still cranks. They can't find any "blue box" that is referenced in some other posts I've read about the interlock.

                                Anyone have a link to the definitive guide to this interlock? Can it only prevent cranking, and if the car is cranking it's okay? Is it possible there is an interlock issue that would cause it to crank buy not have spark? They're slowly going through each leg of the ignition wiring looking for a short and they haven't found anything yet. They're grabbing a bite to eat and then will dig into post above from @67Dart273. They're going to power on and attempt to get the car running again before Thursday. They'll have a few hours tonight, a few in the morning, and then try again on Wednesday afternoon after they've celebrated Christmas with their families.

                                Of course we'd go from lighting on the first crank to this just by trying to hose off the dirt :(.
                                 
                              • 67Dart273

                                67Dart273 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                                The interlock "I don't think" has anything to do with spark. I believe it only cuts out the start signal from the key to the starter relay

                                There are two yellowish wires going to the reset box under the hood. Splice those permanently together

                                The blue box is under the dash. What you are looking for is under the hood, either on the firewall or fender apron. Has a reset button sticking out

                                This is what you are looking for

                                100_0894-jpg-jpg.jpg
                                 
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