help me find an electrical gremlin, please

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steveh

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Yep...unfortunately back with yet another bleeping electrical issue. 69 dart 318 only electrical mods: orange box ecu and bypassed amp gauge

The car just dies no sputtering no nothing, just quits. Typically it is either at idle or low cruising speed less than 45mph. When I pull the coil wire some times I have spark sometimes I dont. Car normally starts back up but sometimes it takes a while.

When I was putting on a new OEM coil I noticed the coil end of the wire was soft and greasey cut that section out and reinstalled. Ran fine for a while....but doing it again. so I put on a completely new coil wire and its still happening.

Where should I start? Got a new mulitmeter, but not much experience in using it. Thanks in advance for any assistance provided

Steve​
 
steveh said:
When I pull the coil wire some times I have spark sometimes I dont. Car normally starts back up but sometimes it takes a while.
Well if you replaced the coil, then I would look at the pickup coil in the distributor. You could check the air gap, it should be at .008, BE SURE TO CHECK WITH A BRASS FEELER GAUGE.

Next check the OHM's by putting your leads in the wire coming from the distributor, it should be in the neighborhood of 300 to 600 OHMs. Next check the voltage output, set your meter to the lowest AC voltage setting put the leads in the same spot and spin the distributor, it should show at least 1 volt AC.

It sure sounds like pickup coil from your description.

One more thing, if you have another distributor you could swap it out and see if the problem goes away. I usually keep two or three around just for that reason.
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Click to expand...
 
As above

But you first need to figure out for sure whether it's spark or fuel.

Carry a "test gap" with you so that you can see the test gap while USING THE KEY to crank the engine. This is because cranking the engine with the key is using the brown bypass circuit, the run circuit is "cold." Cranking the engine by jumpering the start relay is using the RUN circuit, and this goes THROUGH THE BALLAST

So you are not simulating "actual conditions" in one case

You can make one from a plug or buy them. Rig it up so you can see it through the hood gap, reach in and try the key. You should get a nice hot snappy spark. IF you do, and the engine won't fire, it HAS to be a fuel problem

IF the engine tries to fire, then quits when you release the key, it is in the RUN circuit of the ignition harness ---ign switch/ connector, bulkhead, ballast resistor.

ignition spark tester

2011-04-24_021814_spark-tester.jpg
 
sounds to me like the ECU took a crap or lost its ground....ask me how i know

re-ground the ECU ...take it off and scrape the mounting points. if you have an extra , slap it on there
 
thanks for the quick replies and advice,

67dart273, I m slow and dont understand. the dif between the run and start circuit. when it has died in the past, I've had my wife or son turn the key while I checked for spark coming from the coil. Sometimes its there sometimes its not. How is that anything different from what you are telling me to try...sorry just confused

Badsport, not sure I understand how it could be the pick up coil on the dizzy...if I'm having problem getting spark from the coil wire.
 
73abodee,

I was thinking ground too, but what about the soft greasy coil wire as mentioned in the op. The outer covering of the coil wire (part closest to the coil) looked like it had gotten hot and started to break down. But it was only in that spot rest of the wire looked okay. Replaced it, with no effect
 
steveh said:
Badsport, not sure I understand how it could be the pick up coil on the dizzy...if I'm having problem getting spark from the coil wire.
Click to expand...

The pickup coil triggers the coil to spark.


The car just dies no sputtering no nothing, just quits. Typically it is either at idle or low cruising speed less than 45mph. When I pull the coil wire some times I have spark sometimes I dont. Car normally starts back up but sometimes it takes a while.
Click to expand...

Your description is what makes me lean toward coil or pickup coil.

If you replaced the coil with a known good one, then the next step is to check the pickup coil.
 
steveh said:
73abodee,

I was thinking ground too, but what about the soft greasy coil wire as mentioned in the op. The outer covering of the coil wire (part closest to the coil) looked like it had gotten hot and started to break down. But it was only in that spot rest of the wire looked okay. Replaced it, with no effect
Click to expand...

i dont know how new your ignition parts are, but here is a cheap superior fix to all those issues

http://apicdn.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=508e022f256315a50e8e5af8c001704f&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.forabodiesonly.com%2Fmopar%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D208196&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.classichei.com&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.forabodiesonly.com%2Fmopar%2Fsearch.php%3Fsearchid%3D5273031

i just ditched all that standard mopar EI and never looked back. i was having ECU problems myself with the box and getting a good ground, in 30 minutes with the HEI stuff every problem i had went away.
 
ok all, great thanks...gotta run to work and will post follow ups the week end as I attempt to track this down.

appreciate the help...more to follow
 
steveh said:
thanks for the quick replies and advice,

67dart273, I m slow and dont understand. the dif between the run and start circuit. when it has died in the past, I've had my wife or son turn the key while I checked for spark coming from the coil. Sometimes its there sometimes its not. How is that anything different from what you are telling me to try...sorry just confused

Badsport, not sure I understand how it could be the pick up coil on the dizzy...if I'm having problem getting spark from the coil wire.
Click to expand...

OK, Most all cars in these years, Ferd, GM, and Mopar use a ballast resistor and coil

When your Mopar key is in "run" you have "ignition run" through what Mopar calls IGN1 and is traditionally dark blue

BUT when you twist the key to start, this line goes cold by design of the igntition switch, so the ignition MUST get power "somewhere else"

On Ford/ GM, this is done from the I terminal of the start relay/ solenoid.

But on Mopars, you have a separate contact in the switch, which is hot ONLY in start, feeds what Mopar calls "IGN2" out on a traditional brown wire to the coil + sided of the ballast, therefore you get power "in crank."

So the thing is, if you are checking for spark quality, AND you have a problem with either the blue or brown circuit, it depends on what you do to crank the engine----

using key activates the brown bypass

jumpering relay goes through normal blue "ignition run" and the ballast resistor.

Hope that helps.
 
Ditto on HEI is simple, cheap, and better. I put the GM 8-pin module & coil on my 64 slant, ~$20 in junkyard parts. Same parts as shown in 73Abodee's link. You could start wiring that up in parallel and switch over when convenient.

Since you already wired-in the Mopar ignition, might be easier to try to fix that. First run a good, dedicated ground to the orange box. Try swapping boxes and coils. Then test the distributor pickup. Of course you need spare parts for this. Testing spark is easy if you spin the distributor shaft by hand. You could pull yours since a SB is easy to put back the same. Mark where the rotor is pointing and don't turn over the engine (pull yellow wire off starter relay). For checking the spark, try an in-line spark tester ($4 at Harbor Freight) to view while the engine is running. Similar is to use a clamp-on timing light and insure it flashes evenly when clipped to all cylinder wires and to the coil wire (8x faster).

If all this is too tedious, buy a $45 ready-to-run distributor with built-in HEI module and a $20 E-core coil. All you need then is +12V from your ignition switch. Of course, even that won't work if the later is your problem (bad switch, wiring, or bulkhead connector).
 
A voltmeter check to the supply side of the ballast, provides certainty that the ignition system has voltage when the igniton switch is on. Near battery voltage is good.

A voltage check at the mopar ignition box to ground can identify a bad ground at box. Near zero volts is good.

An Ohm test of pick-up coil should read about 300 to 350 ohms.

Why change parts or wonder? A multi-meter is a great tool to figure out what works, or not.
 
CHK THAT CONNECTOR BETWEEN THE DISTR AND THE COIL!

Crimp it down a little tighter.

It's bit more than a few of us. (Looses contact intermitantly from heating and cooling down again)
I took mine out because it was doin exactly as you described.
 
I agree that a multimeter is a great way to check things like this out - if you have voltage at the coil, then there is another problem. My past experience with engines cutting out during a ride always had to do with either points (not your case) or with the ammeter. If it's the ammeter, all of the fused circuits will be dead. If not that, then check the dist., the ECU, the starter solenoid and the ballast resistor (plus the coil if it hadn't already been changed).

Wish you were closer, I love figuring out these problems!

Best of luck!
 
thx all...

Gonna start troubleshooting today and see if I can isolate the problem. I'm sure I will be back on later today asking for additional advice and wisdom. Thanks for your patience...you guys are great...I love this site!!!!
 
Fwiw -

Assuming you dealing with a electrical issue and not fuel related, I would take a close look ballast resistor, could be overheating coil. Heat build in a particular ignition component could be a culprit. Another thought is that you could have multiple issues going on that are complicating troubleshooting.
 
Update #1

12.3v at battery
11.3v at ballast in
9v at ballast out to coil
8.8v at coil

While doing that I noticed that the connector from ecu to coil was tight but the crimp was a bit loose. recrimped and heat shrink. Goin for a spin...we shall see

more to follow
If I don't post in an hour send a posse cause I'm sittin on the side of the road

Steve
 
ok,

drove it about 12-15 miles, mostly round town and 3miles on the interstate. No issues what so ever...got my fingers crossed that the poor connection at the coil was the issue...gonna drive around some more before I declare victory.

Steve
 
Hope that was it. Just keep in mind that IF it is the pickup coil it could be very sporadic, I have had them go 20 miles one time, 100 miles the next time and so on. Never any regularity to it.

Keep us posted.
 
got it thanks Bruce...and thanks to all...no doubt I will be back with more questions..

best to all and have a great weekend
 
Well, Bruce you were right...jumped in it with the wife to go for an evening cruise and didn't get 1 mile died on her 4 times before we got home. Gonna let it sit for tonight and do a little research on the pick-up coil and try again tomorrow.

just a random thought...put in an new ignition switch about a year ago. The key has a habit of not returning fully to the run position. It doesn't stay in start but sit somewhere between start and run. when this happens, the turn signals don't work. With a little nudge to the left, it gets seated in the run position and everything works fine...well until it dies that is...
 
73AbodEE said:
sounds to me like the ECU took a crap or lost its ground....ask me how i know

re-ground the ECU ...take it off and scrape the mounting points. if you have an extra , slap it on there
Click to expand...
my Duster used to just die while sitting at red lights(early- 90s). It would lock up and stall as if you had just let the clutch out while holding the brake down.
But it's an auto...
It would run fine other than the occasional stall.
After messing with it for quite a while, finally tried a new ECU and it solved the problem.
 
Do you by any chance have another distributor to try? I'm not suggesting you buy one, but IF you have an extra you could swap it out and see if that makes a difference. Just make a note of where the rotor is pointing before you pull it, drop the other one in the same way.

Run those two tests with your voltmeter and see what you come up with. Unfortunately when it cools down it may give you good readings which will further confuse you.

I drove a van for a previous employer some years ago that did exactly what yours is doing and my work had the shop look at it several times with no cure. The last time it did it it had to be towed back to the shop, I insisted the shop replace the pickup coil and problem solved.

IF it is the pickup coil you can buy just that piece and replace it.
 
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