Help Needed: Rocker Arm Identification and more

[JoesEdge]

Hello all!

I'm doing a bit of work on the Duster this weekend. I'm pretty much doing the following:

1. Installing baffles in my cast valve covers
2. Swapping the single plane intake for a dual plane Edelbrock Air Gap
3. Possibly adjusting the rocker arms if needed
4. Removing the power booster and going manual

Quick history...I bought the car December and I have clue NO what's in the engine. I just know it's a 360, with roller rockers, single plane intake, Edelbrock 750 carb, BSD distributor and 6A box, choppy cam with only 10" of vacuum and Hooker headers.

Can someone help me identify the these rocker arms? Also, why are there different adjuster nuts?

I don't know (yet) if this cam is hydraulic or mechanical. I'll find out once the intake comes out. If they're hydraulic, shouldn't there be some pre-load on them to the fact that they can't be moved or wiggled side to side? The individual rockers pictured can slide side to side. The ones with tension cannot.

 

[greenswinger]

Sorry man wish I could help. Nice looking setup!!

 

[JoesEdge]

Sorry man wish I could help. Nice looking setup!!

Thanks! I just wish I had more of an idea of what's in there as far as compression ratio, cam specs, etc.

 

[70aarcuda]

one of 3 ...

1. compcams magnum rockers
2. PRW stainless steel rockers
3. pro comp stainless steel rockers..

 

[JoesEdge]

one of 3 ...

1. compcams magnum rockers
2. PRW stainless steel rockers
3. pro comp stainless steel rockers..

I hope it's Comp Cams. I don't know too much about PRW and Pro Comp seems to be chinese made stuff and crappy quality from what I have read.

I'm just trying to find out what they are so I know how to adjust them.

 

[JoesEdge]

Here's a bit of an update...

I pulled off the intake manifold and here's the lifter valley. Do need to remove a lifter to know if it's hydraulic or solid? Thanks!

 

[teringer]

they look like 1.6 rockers the push rods are very close to the wall of the push rod bore you might look closely for rubbing

 

[RustyRatRod]

Joey, I would be most concerned at this point why there is such a vast difference in the set screws on the rockers. In the third picture, look at how much of the adjuster is protruding from the adjuster from the rocker on the right as opposed to all the rest. If the valve job was done correctly, they should all be about the same. Something is up there and it needs to be gotten to the bottom of.

 

[nm9stheham]

they look like 1.6 rockers the push rods are very close to the wall of the push rod bore you might look closely for rubbing

If you look at the top pix, the rockers that are fully opened shows the pushrod in the center of the pushrod hole, whiel the ones that are closed are at the edge of the hole. Either the valves are way tall or something is up that is causing the rocker angle to be off. Maybe these are higher ratio rockers in an attempt to get a higher lift that were put in without the holes being modified.

To check the lifter type, you can usually push down on all of the pushrod ends of the rockers and find some 'give' in one or more of them if they are hydraulic.

 

[JoesEdge]

they look like 1.6 rockers the push rods are very close to the wall of the push rod bore you might look closely for rubbing

I took another look at the picture. Are you referring to the push rod being close to the bottom of the hole of close up picture of the rockers?

The valves appear to be closed for those two rockers. Since the valves are closed, the rockers actually are loose. They have quite a bit of play and the slide around on the shaft. Maybe this is why the push rod comes down close to the bottom of the hole? I mean, because it's loose.

I don't know if that's normal.

Joey, I would be most concerned at this point why there is such a vast difference in the set screws on the rockers. In the third picture, look at how much of the adjuster is protruding from the adjuster from the rocker on the right as opposed to all the rest. If the valve job was done correctly, they should all be about the same. Something is up there and it needs to be gotten to the bottom of.

Yes, this was another concern of mine. They seem to be all set differently. Also, some of the rockers have different adjuster nuts. They aren't all the same. So, what should be my next step in order to get to the "bottom of this"?

To check the lifter type, you can usually push down on all of the pushrod ends of the rockers and find some 'give' in one or more of them if they are hydraulic.

I'll try that.

Ok, since at this point I need to do my research on how to properly adjust these rocker arms, I covered everything back up and I'll have to wait until next weekend.

Thanks for the help so far, if you have more pointers or if you need some specific pictures let me know and I'll take more. Just a note, the engine ran but the valve train did seem noisy.

Oh, how tall should the valves be?

Thanks again!

 

[airgrabber]

You first need to figure out if its hydraulic or solid. If hydraulic, then zero lash, loosen one at a time while running til they click, then tighten till it quiets, then 1/2 turn more. If its solid, then you need to find out who made the cam to get the factory lash specs. If it is solid, I'd test with a feller gauge before making any adjustments to get a ballpark number, and so you can return it if you make changes. Now is a good time to test the lift of the cam too if you have a magnetic base and a dial indicator. You can pull a pushrod and read right off a lifter or cam lobe. And then check at the fact of the retainer to see if the rockers are 1.5 or 1.6 ratio.
If you're ditching the power brakes you will need the right master cyl pushrod. Most swaps can't reuse the set up for the power brake booster as there's usually some sort of linkage and lever set up, where as a manual set up usually just has a rod right off the pedal directly to the master. Mancini should have an adjustable pushrod for the swap.
You can clean the oil off the tip of a valve and a rocker, apply some magic marker or machinists dye, roll the motor over, and check the sweep or width of the contact area on the valve tip to see if its wandering all over.

 

[airgrabber]

Oh, and solid cams are never as quiet as a hydraulic. A well adjusted solid should make a sound like a sewing machine, without a lot of clacking or crashing about.

 

[70aarcuda]

You first need to figure out if its hydraulic or solid. If hydraulic, then zero lash, loosen one at a time while running til they click, then tighten till it quiets, then 1/2 turn more.

doing it that way will work great on a chevy....where the adjuster does not move...the adjuster on a mopar is moving up and down with cam...

 

[JoesEdge]

doing it that way will work great on a chevy....where the adjuster does not move...the adjuster on a mopar is moving up and down with cam...

At first I didn't understand what this meant, but then I started to think about it. Oh yeah, as the engine runs, the rockers are rocking along with the adjusting nut. So, trying to loosen them will be difficult with my wrench banging around on the nut.

So, should I try pushing on the push rod until I feel some give to find out if it's hydraulic, or should I just pull a whole shaft out and lift one of the lifters out to verify it's hydraulic. That just seems like a sort of drastic way of doing it.

 

[TrailBeast]

doing it that way will work great on a chevy....where the adjuster does not move...the adjuster on a mopar is moving up and down with cam...

I does require a special way of holding the adjusting wrench doesn't it?

Don't try using a socket while adjusting.
Use a box end wrench and hold it very loosly so it can move with the rocker, with just enough down force to keep it on the adjuster nut.

From looking at the rocker setup it looks like some of the adjusters might have broken, and were replaced with what was available.

 

[nm9stheham]

So, should I try pushing on the push rod until I feel some give to find out if it's hydraulic, or should I just pull a whole shaft out and lift one of the lifters out to verify it's hydraulic. That just seems like a sort of drastic way of doing it.

Well, with the intake off, seems like it'll take about 1 minute or less to pull a lifter...! Loosens the adj nut way out and move the rod out of the way....that is the truly reliable way to do it. The pushing technique works if any of the hydraulic lifters have leaked down a bit, which a few usually do. It only works on the lifters for valves on the base of the cam; those 'up' on the cam will bottom out if they leka down and still will not move. The only way this does not work with hydraulics is if none leak down at all, or if they are all adjusted waaay too tight.

If they are solids, there should be a tiny bit of loose end play on the pushrods on the lifters which are on the base of the cam. May be hard to tell with oil on the ends

The moving rocker nuts get adjusted live with the right technique; been done for eons. Trailbeast's suggestion is good.

BTW, on the different adjusters... I have seen similar on engines from someone sloppy who had messed up a few and just found what would fit. That is my 1st guess. And, it could very well be that the pushrod lengths are different; the adjusters kinda look the same, just at redically different heights. I would be pulling all the pushrods and the rocker shaft assemblies, so you can check lengths and if the valve stems are all at essentially the same height.

 

[gtsdude]

You should be able to tell if the plunger is going down on a hydraulic without taking a lifter out, hydraulics have a clip on the top also.

 

[Bad Sport]

You should be able to tell if the plunger is going down on a hydraulic without taking a lifter out, hydraulics have a clip on the top also.

So do some solid lifters. I have a whole set sitting right next to me.

 

[JoesEdge]

Now I'm seriously considering just getting a new cam, lifters, pushrods, and stock style rocker arms. Well, I guess that will be the last resort. These can't be bad.

Seems like what I have to do now is figure out what it is I have, and then figure out how to adjust them. I'm going to have my son take a video of the rockers that are loose just so that you can see how much free play (lash) they have. To me, it's quite a bit.

I think someone mentioned that the rockers for Hydraulic lifters should NOT have any lash (free play?) to them right? I just want to verify that. I wish I had more free time to work on this. This day job thing is killing me!! LOL

Anyone know what the valve spring height should be? Would that limit me going to stock style rockers if worse came to worse? I keep reading about the rollers falling out and killing engines so it's starting to worry me.

 

[Bad Sport]

Anyone know what the valve spring height should be? Would that limit me going to stock style rockers if worse came to worse? I keep reading about the rollers falling out and killing engines so it's starting to worry me.

A lot depends on spring pressures and lift. If too high, it can force a pushrod through the cup on the rocker.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Yes, this was another concern of mine. They seem to be all set differently. Also, some of the rockers have different adjuster nuts. They aren't all the same. So, what should be my next step in order to get to the "bottom of this"?

I didn't notice the different adjuster nuts, but you're right, they are different. That might be all it is. You can get a straight edge and with the rocker shaft and rockers off lay it across all the valve tips. They need to be pretty dang close (like within .020") of each other. If there are any beyond that, the valve job was sub par. In a perfect world, they should all be dead the same, but, most machine shops ain't perfect.

I don't think this means to necessarily ditch the rockers. I would certainly remove dissemble and inspect them thoroughly. The bodies look pretty tough.

 

[JoesEdge]

A lot depends on spring pressures and lift. If too high, it can force a pushrod through the cup on the rocker.

Ok. Understood. Basically, the stock style stamped rocker wouldn't be strong enough if the spring is too stiff. If it's not strong, then the cam/lifter will force the push rod right through the rocker. That totally make sense.

I didn't notice the different adjuster nuts, but you're right, they are different. That might be all it is. You can get a straight edge and with the rocker shaft and rockers off lay it across all the valve tips. They need to be pretty dang close (like within .020") of each other. If there are any beyond that, the valve job was sub par. In a perfect world, they should all be dead the same, but, most machine shops ain't perfect.

I don't think this means to necessarily ditch the rockers. I would certainly remove dissemble and inspect them thoroughly. The bodies look pretty tough.

Ok, let me get this straight (no pun intended). Pull the whole shaft off. Then lay them upside down on a bench, then lay a straight edge across the tips of the rockers (tip being the part that goes into the cups of the push rod) to see if they're close to the same length?

Oh, did I mention that the push rods have this funny cone shaped cups on the rocker end? I can have my son take a picture of the push rod side of the rocker arms when he gets home.

I have to say, you guys are pretty awesome helping me with this. Also, explaining things and helping me understand. I know the basics, but it's not often I tear into the inside of an engine.

Thanks again guys!

 

[Bad Sport]

Put a straight edge across the valve tips where the rocker contacts them (center of spring) they should all be real close.

The pushrods you describe are known as ball and cup.

 

[JoesEdge]

Put a straight edge across the valve tips where the rocker contacts them (center of spring) they should all be real close.

The pushrods you describe are known as ball and cup.

Oh, gotcha. So you're trying to determine if the valves are all the same length?

 

[RustyRatRod]

Oh, gotcha. So you're trying to determine if the valves are all the same length?

No, trying to determine if the valve stem height is the same. That's how deep the valves sit in their seats.