txstang84
Well-Known Member
Overall, the harness is cracked, hard, and burnt in a couple places. The connector is cooked too where the old charge wires went. I'd have to completely manufacture a harness with new connectors and everything.
High volts
- Thread starter txstang84
- Start date
-
Overall, the harness is cracked, hard, and burnt in a couple places. The connector is cooked too where the old charge wires went. I'd have to completely manufacture a harness with new connectors and everything.
txstang84
Well-Known Member
I'll attempt to answer all these...
As my upbringing is a little different, to me firewall is the engine side...if I said inside the connector or cabin side of bulkhead connector...well, there ya go.
We all know what happens when you assume...but, I took my measurements from the engine side of the bulkhead connector. The difference at batt (+) to bulkhead connector ign terminal, was 0.4V, but measuring from batt (+) to connector at ballast resistor or at VR ign wire was, again >1V. There are no other connectors between the bulkhead connector and the VR/ballast/alt excite wire other than an in-harness splice. And after inspecting the harness, it's apparent why there's a voltage loss-the wires are discolored, corroded in places, and stands are cut in others-that's what I meant...I apologize that you didn't follow that desciption.
Yes
I tested all segments, before and after switch to see if the connector was an issue; i.e., terminal connectors for corrosion.
But this contradicts what you've said all along, if my ignition switch is losing > 0.3V, then it already exceeds your original speculation that there should be no more 0.2V from battery (+) to ignition wire at the VR.
One way to do this is "rig" a long clip lead to the battery hot terminal, and LEAVE it there. "Big stud" on the starter relay is OK.
Now work along the "chain" and be specific, some of these parts of the "chain" are easier to get to than others
The following might be example readings, key on, engine off
Starter relay stud---zero volts
Fuse link at engine side bulkhead connector (unless modified): zero
loss here was in the mV...less than 50mV, or 0.05V
Irrelevant as the ammeter is deleted, but loss at those wires is negligible
Ignition switch connector, battery feed, switch side: .085v
Ignition run wire out of ignition switch, switch connector, dash harness side: .098v
Ignition run wire on engine side of bulkhead connector, .1v
Ballast resistor at ignition run wire, .15v
Notice each connector adds a small amount to the mix.
Don't forget the wire in between!!!!
The point of me posting those numbers, without running a jumper from here to there and there to there and there to there, was to measure the cumulative loss with the currently installed pieces parts, and detect where the major losses are. My major losses are already mentioned in the previous post, but for clarity sake:
The ignition harness, engine side-replacement imminent...too many cooked wire segments
Likely the ignition switch as the voltage drop of the one currently installed is higher than a slaved in one that isn't even grounded to the column.
Dirty/loose bulkhead connectors...this ought to be fun
As my upbringing is a little different, to me firewall is the engine side...if I said inside the connector or cabin side of bulkhead connector...well, there ya go.
We all know what happens when you assume...but, I took my measurements from the engine side of the bulkhead connector. The difference at batt (+) to bulkhead connector ign terminal, was 0.4V, but measuring from batt (+) to connector at ballast resistor or at VR ign wire was, again >1V. There are no other connectors between the bulkhead connector and the VR/ballast/alt excite wire other than an in-harness splice. And after inspecting the harness, it's apparent why there's a voltage loss-the wires are discolored, corroded in places, and stands are cut in others-that's what I meant...I apologize that you didn't follow that desciption.
Yes
I tested all segments, before and after switch to see if the connector was an issue; i.e., terminal connectors for corrosion.
But this contradicts what you've said all along, if my ignition switch is losing > 0.3V, then it already exceeds your original speculation that there should be no more 0.2V from battery (+) to ignition wire at the VR.
One way to do this is "rig" a long clip lead to the battery hot terminal, and LEAVE it there. "Big stud" on the starter relay is OK.
Now work along the "chain" and be specific, some of these parts of the "chain" are easier to get to than others
The following might be example readings, key on, engine off
Starter relay stud---zero volts
Fuse link at engine side bulkhead connector (unless modified): zero
loss here was in the mV...less than 50mV, or 0.05V
Irrelevant as the ammeter is deleted, but loss at those wires is negligible
Ignition switch connector, battery feed, switch side: .085v
Ignition run wire out of ignition switch, switch connector, dash harness side: .098v
Ignition run wire on engine side of bulkhead connector, .1v
Ballast resistor at ignition run wire, .15v
Notice each connector adds a small amount to the mix.
Don't forget the wire in between!!!!
The point of me posting those numbers, without running a jumper from here to there and there to there and there to there, was to measure the cumulative loss with the currently installed pieces parts, and detect where the major losses are. My major losses are already mentioned in the previous post, but for clarity sake:
The ignition harness, engine side-replacement imminent...too many cooked wire segments
Likely the ignition switch as the voltage drop of the one currently installed is higher than a slaved in one that isn't even grounded to the column.
Dirty/loose bulkhead connectors...this ought to be fun
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Sounds like (apart from my misunderstanding) that you are pretty much running this down. The wire itself---apart from corrosion right at the terminal, is usually not a factor, unless it has been (example) slammed/ pinched/ etc broken in such a way that many of the strands internally were broken. MOSTLY connectors is what you need to concentrate on.
Somehow I didn't catch that you had .3 right in the switch, as I wasn't sure you were probing the switch side or the dash harness side of the connector.
You're getting there.
I should have mentioned this some time ago. Still another approach is to simply use the IGN switch to key a relay. I "did mine" all in one swoop--found a relay box out of a junker, which gave me enough relays for EFI, pump, hi/lo beams, and a relay for ignition/ charging. And one left over for security, ?? other. So all the IGN switch does nowadays is key relays and provide direct power to the cluster/ gauges.
Mine originally had more than a volt drop total from battery to ignition.
This box was out of a 90s Voyager, I think. Mounted right on the top of the inner apron to the rear of the battery. I did have to do some internal re-wiring.
Somehow I didn't catch that you had .3 right in the switch, as I wasn't sure you were probing the switch side or the dash harness side of the connector.
You're getting there.
I should have mentioned this some time ago. Still another approach is to simply use the IGN switch to key a relay. I "did mine" all in one swoop--found a relay box out of a junker, which gave me enough relays for EFI, pump, hi/lo beams, and a relay for ignition/ charging. And one left over for security, ?? other. So all the IGN switch does nowadays is key relays and provide direct power to the cluster/ gauges.
Mine originally had more than a volt drop total from battery to ignition.
This box was out of a 90s Voyager, I think. Mounted right on the top of the inner apron to the rear of the battery. I did have to do some internal re-wiring.
txstang84
Well-Known Member
Amidst all the testing I've been doing with this, I saw a place called MAD electrical referenced numerous times in several searches on here...been thinking about remotely handling all the current under the hood, although, the harness still needs to be replaced as its chewed and burnt in a few places.
I might be scouring the junk yard in the near future...
I might be scouring the junk yard in the near future...
BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
The problem is that almost any engine harness you find in the JY will also be brittle from years of heat. In contrast, the dash wires were like new in my 64 & 65. I totally re-wired the engine side in both A's, with a relay box from a Jeep (search for my post), as 273 did, which eliminated the clutter on the firewall (starter and horn relays, ballast, Vreg).
However, you don't have to go whole hog. It wouldn't be hard to replace all the wires in your ignition harness (8 max), and you can use the opportunity to upgrade to HEI ignition and lose your ballast. You can buy 56 terminals and the common 2 & 3 pin housings on ebay, and get new vinyl wrap (not adhesive like electrical tape) or use split loom or smooth PVC sheath (my choice). Just don't lose the plastic housings of the bulkhead connectors since those are unobtanium. There are after-market harnesses, but prices start ~$300 and usually for later cars and need mod.s anyway.
However, you don't have to go whole hog. It wouldn't be hard to replace all the wires in your ignition harness (8 max), and you can use the opportunity to upgrade to HEI ignition and lose your ballast. You can buy 56 terminals and the common 2 & 3 pin housings on ebay, and get new vinyl wrap (not adhesive like electrical tape) or use split loom or smooth PVC sheath (my choice). Just don't lose the plastic housings of the bulkhead connectors since those are unobtanium. There are after-market harnesses, but prices start ~$300 and usually for later cars and need mod.s anyway.
txstang84
Well-Known Member
Well, I meant scouring the JY for a relay panel-not for an original style harness-I know the likelihood of me getting anything better than what I was already using is pretty slim where I'm located. There aren't that many classic Mopars in the salvage economy here, and the ones that are here, ain't much use...they're either already picked clean by the time I see them, or they're rotted away.
I planned to pick up one of the engine harnesses from year one-they're only $122 and fits factory plug-ins...I'm also on a bit of a time crunch these days and I don't have much time to sit and re-engineer the wire runs and such, although I would prefer to run all new wires to the important stuff. But, I probably will wire up the ignition and lights to run with relays...
I planned to pick up one of the engine harnesses from year one-they're only $122 and fits factory plug-ins...I'm also on a bit of a time crunch these days and I don't have much time to sit and re-engineer the wire runs and such, although I would prefer to run all new wires to the important stuff. But, I probably will wire up the ignition and lights to run with relays...
plum crazy dart
Well-Known Member
I was just looking on year one to see if they had a plug and play engine harness to fit a 74' slanty swinger but nothing listed. Couldn't find one anywhere else either. Figured if I could get all new ready to go harness it would be better than paying someone one to search, find and replace any of my problem areas.
Just back from the local electrical guru, (he's a 1 man shop been doin nothin but auto elect for 30 yrs) Told me that the culprit is prob the gauge itself as all the volts or amps (whatever the hell) go to it from the alt?(think he said), (Can you tell electrical is not my bag) So wondering now is a new gauge avail somewhere or should I just put in an aftermarket if that's the problem. I already replaced the vr with one from advance and had alt checked on and off car. He told me to get another vr and not chinese junk from chain stores.... Is there a way to test a vr off the car? ... txstang, sorry I really don't intend to hijack your thread, havin the same prob and thought this might be better than starting another one. If I'm wrong PLEASE set me straight, Thanks
Just back from the local electrical guru, (he's a 1 man shop been doin nothin but auto elect for 30 yrs) Told me that the culprit is prob the gauge itself as all the volts or amps (whatever the hell) go to it from the alt?(think he said), (Can you tell electrical is not my bag) So wondering now is a new gauge avail somewhere or should I just put in an aftermarket if that's the problem. I already replaced the vr with one from advance and had alt checked on and off car. He told me to get another vr and not chinese junk from chain stores.... Is there a way to test a vr off the car? ... txstang, sorry I really don't intend to hijack your thread, havin the same prob and thought this might be better than starting another one. If I'm wrong PLEASE set me straight, Thanks
txstang84
Well-Known Member
No worries man, all these cars are >35 years old with sub par electrical systems, so everyone has problems with them. I almost burnt my car down a few years ago, so I bypassed the ammeter with an 8ga charge wire...routes all the load directly to the battery instead of through the cab.
I was fortunate Y1 actually had the harness I need in stock-it should ship out this afternoon...I can't claim any familiarity with later models with exception to what I've read on here, but don't the later model As have some differences in the way the harness is constructed?
If you have an ammeter still, this is only my personal feeling, but I'd either bypass it altogether and live with it being a dead gauge, or search the threads here and run the reduced amps method. 67dart273 I think has some threads on modifying it to where it's less likely to cause issues. But, if you're having overcharging problems, read all the way through this thread and check your voltage loss between the battery and ignition wire going to the VR as directed in the thread-you'll probably find your culprit just like I did. You'll need a good multimeter and a working knowledge of your wiring harness (gotta find the junctions and where the wires go). It's not terribly difficult, but can be time consuming if you have to pull your dash apart to find a corroded/burnt wire or splice.
First place to check, as mentioned in this thread, will be your bulkhead connector. I don't know how many VRs you've gone through already, but I went through 3 and they all charged the same way. If you're cranking out more than 14.5V, you've got a voltage drop somewhere in your harness as the VR should only command the alternator to charge volts up to ~14.5V as detected by the VR at the ignition wire...make sense?
That's what mine showed at the alternator blue wire (excite), but since there was a 1.1V drop across the circuit between the battery and the ignition wire, the alternator was charging to ~15.5V at the battery. I could temporarily short a jumper from the charge wire of the alternator to the excite terminal, and the volts would immediately drop to 14.6V, but that will cause a constant power drain to the alternator field since it bypasses the ignition switched lead, and it's not how the alternator is supposed to work. It also makes you want to ignore the fact that the circuit is failing somewhere.
Like I said, read through this thread all the way, run a couple searches, and read them, arm yourself with a good wiring diagram, a multimeter, and some patience and you'll find your problem.
I was fortunate Y1 actually had the harness I need in stock-it should ship out this afternoon...I can't claim any familiarity with later models with exception to what I've read on here, but don't the later model As have some differences in the way the harness is constructed?
If you have an ammeter still, this is only my personal feeling, but I'd either bypass it altogether and live with it being a dead gauge, or search the threads here and run the reduced amps method. 67dart273 I think has some threads on modifying it to where it's less likely to cause issues. But, if you're having overcharging problems, read all the way through this thread and check your voltage loss between the battery and ignition wire going to the VR as directed in the thread-you'll probably find your culprit just like I did. You'll need a good multimeter and a working knowledge of your wiring harness (gotta find the junctions and where the wires go). It's not terribly difficult, but can be time consuming if you have to pull your dash apart to find a corroded/burnt wire or splice.
First place to check, as mentioned in this thread, will be your bulkhead connector. I don't know how many VRs you've gone through already, but I went through 3 and they all charged the same way. If you're cranking out more than 14.5V, you've got a voltage drop somewhere in your harness as the VR should only command the alternator to charge volts up to ~14.5V as detected by the VR at the ignition wire...make sense?
That's what mine showed at the alternator blue wire (excite), but since there was a 1.1V drop across the circuit between the battery and the ignition wire, the alternator was charging to ~15.5V at the battery. I could temporarily short a jumper from the charge wire of the alternator to the excite terminal, and the volts would immediately drop to 14.6V, but that will cause a constant power drain to the alternator field since it bypasses the ignition switched lead, and it's not how the alternator is supposed to work. It also makes you want to ignore the fact that the circuit is failing somewhere.
Like I said, read through this thread all the way, run a couple searches, and read them, arm yourself with a good wiring diagram, a multimeter, and some patience and you'll find your problem.
txstang84
Well-Known Member
After I install the new ignition harness, I'll probably run at least three relays to run the ignition and headlights remotely...it takes all the current out of the cab, and handles it under the hood...two fold win-keeps high current draw systems out of the cab where a fire would be hugely bad, and keeps the wiring runs short so there's near zero voltage loss through the harness...the relay routes power directly from the battery to the affected components and only draws a couple hundred milliamps through the cab.
plum crazy dart
Well-Known Member
I stripped all the electrical tape off the wires that run fron the bulkhead connector over to the vr and alt. The po must have had a problem as i could see that there had been a melted wire in there. It was replaced without going thru plug junction at back ot the motor. It runs to the right side where it splits off and goes to the choke, alt and vr. I found three connections that look mickey mouse.
/6 Matt
30 Degrees Crooked
Odd, my Dart charges at 14.5 and I've never had a problem with the battery cooking....
Then again I've gotten lucky on weird junk before.
Then again I've gotten lucky on weird junk before.
BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
Plum Crazy, those are the same redneck fixes I have dealt with in my cars. I see the P.O. also thoughtfully sprayed black paint all over the rust and grease on the firewall (and anything else nearby) as my P.O.'s did (why do they do that? I had to remove to bare metal). When you fix it, don't use those ugly butt splices. Use solder and heat shrink. Cover exposed wire runs with plastic split loom so they don't ground out.
As mentioned re-read all the posts here. It will explain exactly how the voltage regulator works. Don't skim it like a novel. Read slow and take notes.
As mentioned re-read all the posts here. It will explain exactly how the voltage regulator works. Don't skim it like a novel. Read slow and take notes.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Actually, 14.5 is "getting too high."
One advantage, "fer xample" of the ORIGINAL Delco integral setups is that the no2 terminal was tied close to the battery, not through any amount of harness, connectors, or switches. This made for a very accurate "sense" setup.
(Even the old Ferd/ GM external regulators did this in a "sense," pun intended!!)
Mopar is the only "one" I know of that used the regulator supply--through all it's twists and turns--to act also as the sensing point. This means that it is VERY important that the ignition supply be close to the battery voltage.
plum crazy dart
Well-Known Member
One of my biggest problems is that this is daily transportation and I don't think its safe to drive as is. After I replaced the vr it was charging 15.4 just above middle on gague. After a little driving now gague is almost pinned again.
seabee
Well-Known Member
I wonder if your new VR is losing it's ground. What does a multimeter read on the battery while running? Maybe the gauge is off.
plum crazy dart
Well-Known Member
I'll check later
txstang84
Well-Known Member
You ever get back around to checking your wiring there plum?
On other notes, there's no one local to me that sells pre-wired relays...I was just gonna pick up three of them and wire up my ignition, and headlights, go figure no one carries them, or at least none of the parts stores. The only place I haven't been able to hit yet is Napa...or actual electrical stores. If I can't find any on the economy, I'll be ordering them...
On other notes, there's no one local to me that sells pre-wired relays...I was just gonna pick up three of them and wire up my ignition, and headlights, go figure no one carries them, or at least none of the parts stores. The only place I haven't been able to hit yet is Napa...or actual electrical stores. If I can't find any on the economy, I'll be ordering them...
txstang84
Well-Known Member
What do you guys think? Most of these don't give a constant current rating...
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pco-5591pt/overview/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/via-80237/overview/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/der-16763/media/images
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dak-rly-1/overview/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dak-rly-2/overview/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aww-500479/overview/
...and I found this one on Google...looks pretty cool to me, not terribly expensive and straightforward install...
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Headl...&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CM3B9tKy7LUCFQKrPAod1TUAFA
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pco-5591pt/overview/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/via-80237/overview/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/der-16763/media/images
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dak-rly-1/overview/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dak-rly-2/overview/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aww-500479/overview/
...and I found this one on Google...looks pretty cool to me, not terribly expensive and straightforward install...
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Headl...&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CM3B9tKy7LUCFQKrPAod1TUAFA
txstang84
Well-Known Member
Ok, so I went the easy route and bought that one from Speedway...I also picked up a high current relay kit for the ignition setup. What with the condition of the other harnesses, I figure this headlight relay kit, it'll work pretty well. I was having issues with flickering lights at idle anyway.
plum crazy dart
Well-Known Member
In the middle of a snowstorm here... supposed to get nice over the weekend. get out there then.
plum crazy dart
Well-Known Member
Ok got a nice day here so dmm reads 14.3-14.4 at battery with car running. The gauge is reading 3/4 up. I still have 3-4 shitty butt spliced connections that have to get redone/soldered that I haven't gotten to.
BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
Plum Crazy, my newer cars read 14.5 V w/ engine running and 12.6 V with engine off. That is at the cigarette lighter with a plug-in voltmeter ($15 Equuis via Amazon). I recall about the same in my old Mopars. Sounds good to me. Your ammeter shouldn't stay at 3/4 scale continuously. If it does, it means a lot of current is flowing into the battery but the voltage isn't increasing. If so, stop at Autozone or such and they will load test your battery for free in the parking lot. You could have a bad cell or low water. The current will be converting the water into H2 & O2, which will disappear.
txstang84
Well-Known Member
That high on the ammeter is odd...if it stays up in that range much longer, it'll likely burn up some wiring behind the dash. If I saw that much charge going on, I'd probably check the engine side of the bulkhead connector for the 10ga wires going in from the alternator, and out to the starter relay.
plum crazy dart
Well-Known Member
Had that done already, checked good. The only thing they found was a slightly low starter amp draw 11.97 v ? Haven't been driving it for fear of burning something up.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
I'd double check that the METER is correct
Check charging voltage right at the battery
(14.5 is actually "heading" towards "too high")
Your reading 11.9x "on the starter" is not low
YOU MAY HAVE a bad battery. If it is actually running at correct charge voltage and the ammeter still shows high, you might swap a known good battery in for a test
Check charging voltage right at the battery
(14.5 is actually "heading" towards "too high")
Your reading 11.9x "on the starter" is not low
YOU MAY HAVE a bad battery. If it is actually running at correct charge voltage and the ammeter still shows high, you might swap a known good battery in for a test
-
