Holley sniper vs. Edelbrock pro flo

Discussion in 'Small Block Mopar Engine' started by Zachary Egnitz, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. Zachary Egnitz

    Zachary Egnitz Active Member

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    I'm looking into efi and I was pretty interested in Holley's Sniper. But then I saw a video on edelbrock's pro flo and the tech in the video said something about it being better for loping cams because other efi systems get confused. Anyways, I like the simplicity of the sniper and since holly has a well known history with carburetors it seems like a solid choice. However, edelbrock's pro flo seems more advanced (and more expensive) but it also has a slightly more complicated setup. Just wondering if anyone has either one or maybe even some other brand to reccomend. I have a 1969 barracuda with a 340. One of the previous owners put a larger cam in it which is why I brought up the note about loping cams earlier.
     
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    • famous bob

      famous bob mopar misfit

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    • famous bob

      famous bob mopar misfit

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      I don`t know about those systems, but I have a problem w/ a fast 2.0 w/ a too big of a cam.
      I don`t get it !! 1200 cfm throttle body , and cam too big ??
       
    • 67Dart273

      67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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      I doubt it's "other systems" vs Ed. There (to my knowledge) are three basic strategies

      1...Mass air flow used by Ford eg
      2...Air density used by EG Dodge, Holley, Megasquirt, FI tech, I don't know who all else
      3...Or "Alpha N" which can be SELECTED by many systems. This primarily uses temp sensors like 1, 2, but instead of MAF or air density, it simply uses RPM and throttle position. THIS IS WHAT is used on stuff like "stack injection" (Hilborn style) or in some cases of "really big cams" with poor vacuum signal.

      Frankly, it sounds like you might be "out of" the lower end Sniper/ FI tech relm. You might want to thing about Holley that uses an HP computer. ALL Holley systems except Sniper and the larger Dominator use an HP computer. The Avenger/ Terminator both use the HP computer, and if you want to step up later to multiport, you can still use most of the system, INCLUDING the throttle body.......just add the multiport injectors and reprogram the system.
       
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      • tanis4457

        tanis4457 Well-Known Member

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        Might want to go onto the Holley forums and ask "danny" (I believe that's the helpful moderator there) about your cam and the Sniper. I'm running the Sniper efi and the fuel/timing tables are quite larger than some of the others, lots of area to tune. I'm running the sniper and dual sync dist (timing control) on a 367 with a 241/247@.050 cam, roughly 10" of vacuum. I've only tuned the idle so far (waiting on a driveshaft) and it's performing just fine. I should note I'm using the Sniper software on a laptop not from the handheld.
         
      • Wyrmrider

        Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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        how about the bigger brother to the $695 system mentioned here a couple of days ago?
         
      • rumblefish360

        rumblefish360 so close yet so far away

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        Where is that thread & What’s the $695 system?

        To the OP, the Edelbrock just recently came down in price significantly! The earlier systems costs were in the high 2K to 3.5K bucks. I have never seen one. Because of there costs I think.

        I like the idea of a Sequential port fuel injection system that is flexible enough to handle big cams. It I don’t know how far this Edelbrock system will go.
         
      • Wyrmrider

        Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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      • Zachary Egnitz

        Zachary Egnitz Active Member

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        I'll see if I can get more info on what cam I actually have. I plan on contacting both holley and edelbrock and seeing what they have to say about each system. I've seen many videos on both systems and they both have basically the same strategies of tuning like 67dart273 mentioned. But there was one additional question that the edelbrock system had that I didnt see on the holley setup which was the computer asking "how aggressive of a cam is installed." Which makes me think edelbrock may not get confused by poor vacuum signals like other systems would OR holley just does that internally and tries guess your cam size with out asking you about it. Hence why I think I need to speak with a holley tech
         
      • Zachary Egnitz

        Zachary Egnitz Active Member

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        Also I apologize, I confused the names of the products. I was leaning more towards the e street efi for edelbrock not the pro flow. However with all your input you got me thinking about a the full system with the intake manifold.
         
      • rumblefish360

        rumblefish360 so close yet so far away

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        It is pretty sweet lookin!
         
      • pishta

        pishta I know I'm right....

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        I would not sweat the sequential injection as its not a noticeable factor, "...In the end, there are no significant differences in top end, wide open throttle, horsepower between batch fired and timed systems..." it was more for low RPM test emissions. Its a moot point after about 3.5K anyway as the valves are going to be faster than the sequential injection pulse cycle. I have an original $$ Pro-flow 2 channel bank fire V1.0 and the thing came with a questionair on what cam specs you were going to use. If you were not using their matched Performer RPM camshaft:
        • Lift: .488''/.510''
        • Duration @ .050: 234°/244°
        • Advertised Duration: 308°/318
        • 10" at 1000 RPM vacuum
        you had to send the GM'ish EPROM in (1 X free) to have it burned to your cam specs. the 2nd gen V2.0 (came out 6 months later!) had the ability to write to its own EPROM from the same handheld controller, that had less flexibility in the first gen model. I had the Edy RPM cam anyway so I never got it changed but will have to do a global fuel pressure change as its not a 360 anymore :)
         
      • tanis4457

        tanis4457 Well-Known Member

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        I agree sequential is more for emissions and part throttle driving, for higher rpms the sequential style EFI systems can't properly time to each cylinder and are timed for more of a batch fired system anyway. For simplicity with the current crop of TB efi systems, they offer a very nice product at a great price point, especially when you control timing with them.
         
      • Backally

        Backally FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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        The Holley does ask cam during the setup. The quick setup guide gives guidelines based on vacuum. street/ mild, street/strip or race cam, something like that.
         
      • Zachary Egnitz

        Zachary Egnitz Active Member

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        Ahhh ok good I missed that in the instructional videos.
         
      • BigBlockMopar

        BigBlockMopar BigBlockMember

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        Edelbrock is a newby in the carb world?
        As every brand has their info listed on their sites, and everyone of them thinks their stuff is best, I personally would be hesistant to be contacting the fabricators themselves as it sounds like you're fairly susceptible to 'advertising text' and info.
        I would also look for people who are actually using the products, and then base my decision on that.
        Actual users are the ones that will most likely give honest and real world information about the bad things some products might have. Online supportforums for both brands are also great source of info where you can easliy spot 'trends' of the more common issues people run into.

        Brandnames and costs aside, my personal choice would always be port-injection over throttlebody injection.
         
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        • Zachary Egnitz

          Zachary Egnitz Active Member

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          Yo
          You make a good point about the reps not being 100% honest and just trying to sell the product. But I was kind of expecting that. I plan on having both groups give their pitch and try to sell me in the product and see what stand out to them. And as far as getting real people's opinions that's what this forum is for haha. But the support forums for both brands is another good idea I'll check that out as well.
           
        • nm9stheham

          nm9stheham Well-Known Member

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          The Holley Sniper is pretty simple... it uses specific sensors to adjust the fuel-air mix: TPS, an O2 sensor and a MAP (manifold pressure sensor) are the main ones supported by engine temp and maybe intake air temp. The FAST is the pretty much the same. With a big cam you can get 2 problems:
          • The manifold pressures won't vary in the normal range compared to a 'standard engine" as you go from closed to open throttle. MP's for a big cam are limited to high and higher (low vacuums all around) so while the MAP sensor give readings, you lose a lot of resolution on determining where the engine load is, and so that can limit how many fuel maps the ECU chooses from at a given moment. I would suspect that any setup questions about cam loads a different set of fuel maps into the ECU depending on the general cam size. For a big cam, it would want to load a lot more fuel maps for high manifold pressure (low vacuum) situations, so it can make better choices. Think of it as a finer resolution over a smaller range of MP's.
          • The big cam overlap will give erroneous O2 readings at low RPM's where a lot of unburned fuel-air mixture goes straight from intake to exhaust and completely bypasses the cylinder and the burn process. The unburned fuel does not register at all with the O2 senor but the unused oxygen that bypasses the cylinders DOES get seen by the O2 sensor and makes it looks like the engine is burning lean, when it is actually not. So the ECU makes the wrong mixture adjustments. The fuel maps can be adjusted to try to compensate for this but it will only be so good. Once you lose accuracy in the O2 sensor's readings on engine mixture, it becomes a type of educated guessing game.
          Any EFI system that has a MAP and O2 sensor will have these possible issues. Using a MAF sensor is an improvement as the ECU can see the actual air flow, not estimate it from the MAP sensor so that is better, but you still have the O2 sensor issues. But MAP sensors are very easy to physically implement and are inexpensive.

          OP, the Edelbrock system looks to use the same basic sensors as the Holley sniper system: TPS, MAP and O2, plus a few supporting sensors. It does not look like anything particularly superior in concept. So I would take that info with a grain of salt. But, the details of the implementation are the key; one company may do a better job of putting in maps for low MP situations, and may have better learning strategies.

          It is not clear to me why having port injection would make any difference in how the sensors operate or how well the fuel-air maps are set up, selected, or used.
           
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          • 67Dart273

            67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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            I could be wrong but I'm not aware of one single aftermarket EFI that uses MAF, good or bad.
             
          • nm9stheham

            nm9stheham Well-Known Member

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            I dunno the answer for sure, but you're probably right.. for aftermarket.
             
          • 67Dart273

            67Dart273 Well-Known Member

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            The thing is, NHRA has mandated Holley EFI, specifically, with a specific TB for at least some of the pro classes. THOSE GUYS manage to get them programmed.................
             
          • BigBlockMopar

            BigBlockMopar BigBlockMember

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            The sensors don't know where the fuel is injected.
            But there's a reason factories are using port-injection over the basicly simpler TB-injection these days.
            Emissions is most likely the reason, which shows proper fuel-control is easier/better achieved when you inject fuel right above the intake valve, instead way up in the intake-track at the intake opening.
            Cold intake manifolds can cause vaporized fuel to partly fall out of suspension, meaning not all of the carefully measured injected fuel gets to the cylinders at the moment they are supposed to. Even worse, reformed fuel-droplets can 'puddle' inside the intake and be caught and whipped up in a faster airstream and screw up the mixture for that cylinder firing event.
             
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            • pishta

              pishta I know I'm right....

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              NHRA EFI is either Idle or WOT, not alot of part throttle driving to be had. You see those things idle?
               
            • famous bob

              famous bob mopar misfit

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              may be why mine don`t like to run right till it gets to 190* . I am changing cams to one that has more lobe separation, and 6* less duration, lift about the same . My engine guru ran the numbers on a program he has set up on his computer, I`m only losing 6 h.p. and gaining 4 pounds of torque. HIS program said 761 w/ my engine specs put in it " before the cam change".
              This cam should give me more vacuum, the old one was kinda right on the edge.
               
            • wireweld

              wireweld Well-Known Member

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              The only one I know of is Pro M Efi. Use to be known as Mass Flo.
               
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