Hotchkis or QA1 all inclusive kits - which one?

[Tuesday]

Hi all,
I need some advice. I have just purchased a 1973 Plymouth Scamp and am head over heels in love - don’t worry, no relationship advice needed . But I do need some suspension advice. I’m wholesale going to tighten up the handing and make it dynamically better - I know I want a kit (not a mix and match) and I want shocks. The shocks is the easy part. On the kits, I’ve heard great things about QA1 and Hotchkis but on the latter, most reviews seem to be older - a few years ago older. But I keep looking at the A-BODY TOTAL VEHICLE SYSTEM from Hotchkis and it looks on the money, like exactly what I want and they’ve money off at the moment, I just need to add some decent shocks, new disc brakes and the Kevlar drum brake upgrade kit from BAC and I hope I’m set. What I’m asking for is recent knowledge of Hotchkis, is it a really bad choice for a wholesale change or is QA1 a better option. Advise and ‘recent’ Hotchkis conversion war stories appreciated (if there are any and it’s a good kit)….
PS. New to this American muscle car thing and a total Mopar newbie - but excited to be here and already know this will not be my last Mopar!

 

[ch1ll]

Keep the torsion bar suspension.

 

[Professor Fate]

Keep the torsion bar suspension.

The Hotchkis kit (at least) is for torsion bar suspension.

 

[72bluNblu]

Contact @BergmanAutoCraft

Neither the QA1 or Hotchkis kit is truly a “complete” kit. Both are missing stuff you need, and both have some stuff included that you really don’t need. I have a complete list of parts, everything included, that I’ve posted and updated occasionally, but it would be a “mix and match” set up as you call it. That’s not really an accurate description, the parts are from different manufacturers but were all chosen to work together. Just getting everything in one box does not mean you have the best system, some are better engineered than others to work together.

It also really depends on what you want to do with the car. If it will spend most of its time on the street your set up should be different than if it will spend most of its time on the track, be that AutoX or long track.

 

[junkyardhero]

you take the factory torsion bar suspension a LONG way for about 1/2 the cost of anything aftermarket and get damn near the same results.

carefully selected rebuild pieces and judicious acquisition of aftermarket components can make a really nice handling and driving car.

it really comes down to what type of driving you plan on doing and how much bling you want.

what are you starting with? do you have stock disc brakes and a sway bar already? do you want rear disc brakes?

 

[Tuesday]

I’m N

you take the factory torsion bar suspension a LONG way for about 1/2 the cost of anything aftermarket and get damn near the same results.

carefully selected rebuild pieces and judicious acquisition of aftermarket components can make a really nice handling and driving car.

it really comes down to what type of driving you plan on doing and how much bling you want.

what are you starting with? do you have stock disc brakes and a sway bar already? do you want rear disc brakes?

Contact @BergmanAutoCraft

Neither the QA1 or Hotchkis kit is truly a “complete” kit. Both are missing stuff you need, and both have some stuff included that you really don’t need. I have a complete list of parts, everything included, that I’ve posted and updated occasionally, but it would be a “mix and match” set up as you call it. That’s not really an accurate description, the parts are from different manufacturers but were all chosen to work together. Just getting everything in one box does not mean you have the best system, some are better engineered than others to work together.

It also really depends on what you want to do with the car. If it will spend most of its time on the street your set up should be different than if it will spend most of its time on the track, be that AutoX or long track.

Warning - got a little trigger happy with the typing… @junkyardhero - I’d like to be on the same page as you - I like the sound of 1/2 cost for the same results - if you share your perfect list would love to hear it. Everything to my limited knowledge, from visual checks under the car and speaking with the previous owner, it’s all stock. I’m taking her to a trustworthy mechanic next week for a full inspection and will make a ‘shopping list’ from there but really eager to hear what real world users think. I’m honestly very green when it comes to this but intend to modify her over time but want to get her safer and more engaging to drive from the get go - I’m no mechanical expert but have driven a few cars, old and new and can instantly tell, with some tightening up underneath, new bushes, torsion rods and parts, she be vastly improved and answering previous comments, and my own sense, I think I’m better off keeping the the torsion bar set-up, as I’d rather keep the integrity of the car - Driving wise, I’m not going to chuck her around a track but I want to feel I can brake hard into a corner and accelerate around it without seeing my life fleet in-front of my eyes - I would say I’m a spirited driver but I didn’t buy her for donuts or track racing. @junkyardhero - yes, possibly like rear discs, currently drums and front are stock discs (to my knowledge). No sway bar installed - maybe you or others then have a list of parts I need to make her drive nicely without taking the soul away? Already, this short line of chat has confirmed in my mind QA1 and a non torsion bar conversion is ‘not the way to go’. @72bluNblu - am ruling out QA1 and am surprised for how many supplies selling Hotchkis that there is limited feedback on here - am presuming it’s possibly not the way to go for a wholesale change. My promise to you is I will call you next week (if that is ok?) and discuss the package you can put together - being brutally honest, the reason I came to this group is because I wondered as I was initially changing all in one go, maybe a kit like that offered me better value - am expecting this to be the biggest investment in me owning the Scamp and if I can save money that is always useful but that is not the be all end all, having a car I can drive a little harder and trust to hold a line is the most important thing (and a smile on my face - a given!!). @72bluNblu I’ll be driving her on the street but if she could fair well in AutoX I’d be grinning from ear to ear, if that makes sense! To all users - open to thoughts on the Hotchkis full set or a shopping list and reasoning on other options - the perfect nirvana for me is good value meets the ability for spirited street driving/cornering!

 

[racerjoe]

Bergman is a great starting point. He can sell you pretty much everything you need, however, it likely won't be all the same brand.

I run lots of Hotchkis parts on my car and I love it. I autocross regularly and the car handles amazing. Lots of pictures and details in my build thread.

Some may think these parts are overkill for something you just drive on the street. I'm here to tell you these parts make the car much more fun to drive regardless if its on the street or autocross.


Here's a summary of my suspension:
Hotchkiss Parts:
Front and rear sway bar
Non-Adjustable shocks
Leaf springs

Bergman Autocraft supplied parts:
SPC Upper control arms
Sway-a-way 1.08 torsion bars

Qa1
Adjustable strut rods

You didn't mention if you have power steering. If you do, I'd highly recommend a Borgenson steering box (Bergman sells these too) To get the most out of all of this, you would want a larger diameter and width tire. Not required, but recommended.

 

[junkyardhero]

@Tuesday can you snap a pic of your front suspension/brakes & steering? namely the lower control arms. want to see what you're working with and then go from there. I'd hate to recommend something and waste everybody's time when it needs to go another direction. is the car power steering/brakes do you want it to be or not to?

also, what are you thinking/planning wheel wise? do you want 13" bling'd out brakes? are you dead set on a specific look and style? this is something to take into consideration when you set out on gathering components.

 

[Tuesday]

Bergman is a great starting point. He can sell you pretty much everything you need, however, it likely won't be all the same brand.

I run lots of Hotchkis parts on my car and I love it. I autocross regularly and the car handles amazing. Lots of pictures and details in my build thread.

Some may think these parts are overkill for something you just drive on the street. I'm here to tell you these parts make the car much more fun to drive regardless if its on the street or autocross.


Here's a summary of my suspension:
Hotchkiss Parts:
Front and rear sway bar
Non-Adjustable shocks
Leaf springs

Bergman Autocraft supplied parts:
SPC Upper control arms
Sway-a-way 1.08 torsion bars

Qa1
Adjustable strut rods

You didn't mention if you have power steering. If you do, I'd highly recommend a Borgenson steering box (Bergman sells these too) To get the most out of all of this, you would want a larger diameter and width tire. Not required, but recommended.
View attachment 1716040870

View attachment 1716040871

View attachment 1716040869

I think we’re on the same page re driving enjoyment - everything you’ve included is really useful - thank you. I do have power steering and as expected it’s not very tight or engaging, so will be checking that out with Bergman too, thankfully have some ‘slightly’ wider tires and rims than stock - she’s far from a project car and is in pretty good shape… this is her before buffing her paint back to gloss, which is my current project….

 

[Tuesday]

@Tuesday can you snap a pic of your front suspension/brakes & steering? namely the lower control arms. want to see what you're working with and then go from there. I'd hate to recommend something and waste everybody's time when it needs to go another direction. is the car power steering/brakes do you want it to be or not to?

also, what are you thinking/planning wheel wise? do you want 13" bling'd out brakes? are you dead set on a specific look and style? this is something to take into consideration when you set out on gathering components.

I’ll be under the car, all being well, this week and will come back to you and share a snap. There is power steering and powered brakes - looks like stock but when I get under car properly with mechanic will confirm. Wheel wise - want to keep the spirit of mopar, so if pushed would probably keep what I have as I really like the look of the era but if there are any wheels of a decent width that would fit with that look, I’d definitely look at those but not straight away. Bling wise - I want this car to look stealth (is hard in that lime green but trying - ) as in, am not worried about flashes of big brake shoes and discs but do what it to be dynamically engaging and safe. In other news, I’ve warned my wife when we move House soon, we’re going to need a bigger garage for me to get my hands dirty and do the work!

 

[72bluNblu]

Warning - got a little trigger happy with the typing… @junkyardhero - I’d like to be on the same page as you - I like the sound of 1/2 cost for the same results - if you share your perfect list would love to hear it. Everything to my limited knowledge, from visual checks under the car and speaking with the previous owner, it’s all stock. I’m taking her to a trustworthy mechanic next week for a full inspection and will make a ‘shopping list’ from there but really eager to hear what real world users think. I’m honestly very green when it comes to this but intend to modify her over time but want to get her safer and more engaging to drive from the get go - I’m no mechanical expert but have driven a few cars, old and new and can instantly tell, with some tightening up underneath, new bushes, torsion rods and parts, she be vastly improved and answering previous comments, and my own sense, I think I’m better off keeping the the torsion bar set-up, as I’d rather keep the integrity of the car - Driving wise, I’m not going to chuck her around a track but I want to feel I can brake hard into a corner and accelerate around it without seeing my life fleet in-front of my eyes - I would say I’m a spirited driver but I didn’t buy her for donuts or track racing. @junkyardhero - yes, possibly like rear discs, currently drums and front are stock discs (to my knowledge). No sway bar installed - maybe you or others then have a list of parts I need to make her drive nicely without taking the soul away? Already, this short line of chat has confirmed in my mind QA1 and a non torsion bar conversion is ‘not the way to go’. @72bluNblu - am ruling out QA1 and am surprised for how many supplies selling Hotchkis that there is limited feedback on here - am presuming it’s possibly not the way to go for a wholesale change. My promise to you is I will call you next week (if that is ok?) and discuss the package you can put together - being brutally honest, the reason I came to this group is because I wondered as I was initially changing all in one go, maybe a kit like that offered me better value - am expecting this to be the biggest investment in me owning the Scamp and if I can save money that is always useful but that is not the be all end all, having a car I can drive a little harder and trust to hold a line is the most important thing (and a smile on my face - a given!!). @72bluNblu I’ll be driving her on the street but if she could fair well in AutoX I’d be grinning from ear to ear, if that makes sense! To all users - open to thoughts on the Hotchkis full set or a shopping list and reasoning on other options - the perfect nirvana for me is good value meets the ability for spirited street driving/cornering!

Ok, this all makes sense. QA1's replacement parts for the torsion bar set up are good, I use a few of their parts. I wouldn't do their coil-over conversion, but it doesn't sound like that's the way you want to go. Hotchkis also makes great parts, but they're expensive and there are better "bang for you buck" parts out there for most of their parts. And some of their stuff I would not use on the street. I ran their tubular UCA's on my Challenger, and the heim joints at the UCA's only lasted about 7k miles. Hotchkis warrantied them for me, but even the replacement set is showing wear after another ~7k miles. For a street car I prefer to keep everything with bushings, although I replace all the rubber bushings with polyurethane or Delrin because they perform better and will last a lot longer if properly cared for.

The next thing is- I'm not a supplier or in the business of putting together kits. I have put together a few lists of parts with other retailers based on what I use on my own '74 Duster, which I use as my daily driver the majority of the time. The next big question for you is whether or not you want to just bolt everything on. This is my list for new parts everywhere, basically the closest you get for a full bolt on kit unless @BergmanAutoCraft has some updated offerings. I updated it at the end of December so the prices should be fairly accurate. This is the grand daddy of everything list, I put it together for a price comparison for all the guys that want to convert to RMS coil overs. So, with that said, there are a several large, expensive items that can be removed from the list if you want to save some money or are willing to rebuild some factory parts.

QA1 Adjustable strut bars - $286.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52311 QA1 Dynamic Adjustable Strut Bars | Summit Racing
QA1 LCA’s - $560.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52307 QA1 Mopar Control Arms | Summit Racing
QA1 tie rod sleeves- $80.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52325 QA1 Heavy-Duty Tie Rod Sleeves | Summit Racing
Proforged tie rod ends- $174.08 (all 4)
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10157 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pof-104-10156/make/dodge/model/dart/year/197
Proforged lower ball joint (driver)- $45.80
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10129 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
Proforged lower ball joint (passenger)- $45.80
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10128 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
Hotchkis Adjustable Shocks- $423.50
1974 DODGE DART Hotchkis Sport Suspension 70030013 Hotchkis Sport Suspension Tuned 1.5 Adjustable Performance Series Shocks | Summit Racing
Proforged ball joints- $42.38 (both included)
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10126 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
Moog idler - $35.99
1974 DODGE DART Moog Chassis Parts K7086 Moog Replacement Idler Arms | Summit Racing
Hellwig 55905 front sway bar- $297.03
1974 DODGE DART Hellwig 55905 Hellwig Motorsports Tubular Sway Bars | Summit Racing
Bergman Autocraft SPC UCA’s (1st gen)- $495
BAC/SPC 1.0 UPPER CONTROL ARM - Bergman Auto Craft
Bergman Autocraft 1.08” torsion bars- $385
Mopar A Body Torsion Bar Set 1.08" - Bergman Auto Craft
Proforged polyurethane control arm shaft kit w/bushings- $116.95
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 120-10003 Proforged Control Arm Shaft Kits | Summit Racing
Proforged Camber bolts - $36.04
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 120-10009 Proforged Camber Bolts | Summit Racing
DoctorDiff 73+ spindles- $175
Mopar Reproduction Disc Brake Knuckles for A/B/E Bodies
Borgeson box from BAC $849
BAC STEERING BOX CONVERSION KIT - LARGE SECTOR 73-82 - Bergman Auto Craft

Front total: $4,092.41 (power steering, pump and lines not included, that's for the RMS comparison part)

The rear suspension isn't a part of most of the kits, but here's a good start
Rear :

Hotchkis Sport Springs- $463.37
1974 DODGE DART Hotchkis Sport Suspension 24385 Hotchkis Sport Suspension Leaf Springs | Summit Racing
Hotchkis 1.5 shocks (adjustable)- $423.50 (both)
1974 DODGE DART Hotchkis Sport Suspension 71030015 Hotchkis Sport Suspension Adjustable Performance Series Shocks | Summit Racing
Hellwig rear sway bar 6907- $440.15
1974 DODGE DART Hellwig 6907 Hellwig Anti-Sway Bars | Summit Racing
Rear total: $1,327.02
Complete total: $5,419.43

Now, that list may be (and probably is) above and beyond what you want for the street. Most folks are happy without adjustable shocks, so you can save a bunch of money there and the Bilstein RCD's are very good. You also can save a TON of money if you rebuild your lower control arms and just box them vs using new tubular LCA's. And you may be able to reuse your stock camber bolts (and should if your are in good shape). Reading your first post you may already have disk brakes too, so you don't need the spindles. I'll leave the bolts and spindles in. If you make these replacements to the above list-

Bilstein RCD shocks front- $270
BILSTEIN SHOCKS - FRONT - A BODY MOPAR - Bergman Auto Craft
Bilstein RCD shocks rear- $254
BILSTEIN SHOCKS - REAR - A BODY MOPAR - Bergman Auto Craft

BAC lower control arm reinforcement plates - $30 ( to be welded to the factory LCA's)
Lower Control Arm Reinforcement Plate/Pr - Bergman Auto Craft
Ditching the Hotchkis adjustable shocks and QA1 tubular LCA's saves you $854.01 and brings you down to $4,565.42 for everything, front and rear. And that may still be a few hundred too high if you already have disk spindles.
Another item is the SPC UCA's. They're super nice, but for most street cars you don't need them and their adjustability will make it difficult to find an alignment shop that wants to deal with you. You can run QA1 UCA's, which come with upper ball joints, and should still have enough adjustability for a reasonable modern alignment with decent positive caster numbers....
QA1 Tubular UCA's - $436.95
QA1 TUBULAR UPPER CONTROL ARMS - Bergman Auto Craft

That saves you another $100.43 vs the SPC's. Personally, I think the SPC's are a much better part, but again, for a street car they're not necessary. I do love mine though, but I also do my own alignments.

Anyway, that gives you a list to pretty much fully rebuild all the suspension on your car. Clearly it uses a bunch of different parts, but I have run pretty much all of the parts above on my own cars for at least 30k+ street miles, and some as far as over 70k miles on my Challenger. Only thing I haven't dealt with at all is the Borgeson power steering.

 

[Tuesday]

Ok, this all makes sense. QA1's replacement parts for the torsion bar set up are good, I use a few of their parts. I wouldn't do their coil-over conversion, but it doesn't sound like that's the way you want to go. Hotchkis also makes great parts, but they're expensive and there are better "bang for you buck" parts out there for most of their parts. And some of their stuff I would not use on the street. I ran their tubular UCA's on my Challenger, and the heim joints at the UCA's only lasted about 7k miles. Hotchkis warrantied them for me, but even the replacement set is showing wear after another ~7k miles. For a street car I prefer to keep everything with bushings, although I replace all the rubber bushings with polyurethane or Delrin because they perform better and will last a lot longer if properly cared for.

The next thing is- I'm not a supplier or in the business of putting together kits. I have put together a few lists of parts with other retailers based on what I use on my own '74 Duster, which I use as my daily driver the majority of the time. The next big question for you is whether or not you want to just bolt everything on. This is my list for new parts everywhere, basically the closest you get for a full bolt on kit unless @BergmanAutoCraft has some updated offerings. I updated it at the end of December so the prices should be fairly accurate. This is the grand daddy of everything list, I put it together for a price comparison for all the guys that want to convert to RMS coil overs. So, with that said, there are a several large, expensive items that can be removed from the list if you want to save some money or are willing to rebuild some factory parts.

QA1 Adjustable strut bars - $286.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52311 QA1 Dynamic Adjustable Strut Bars | Summit Racing
QA1 LCA’s - $560.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52307 QA1 Mopar Control Arms | Summit Racing
QA1 tie rod sleeves- $80.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52325 QA1 Heavy-Duty Tie Rod Sleeves | Summit Racing
Proforged tie rod ends- $174.08 (all 4)
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10157 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pof-104-10156/make/dodge/model/dart/year/197
Proforged lower ball joint (driver)- $45.80
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10129 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
Proforged lower ball joint (passenger)- $45.80
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10128 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
Hotchkis Adjustable Shocks- $423.50
1974 DODGE DART Hotchkis Sport Suspension 70030013 Hotchkis Sport Suspension Tuned 1.5 Adjustable Performance Series Shocks | Summit Racing
Proforged ball joints- $42.38 (both included)
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10126 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
Moog idler - $35.99
1974 DODGE DART Moog Chassis Parts K7086 Moog Replacement Idler Arms | Summit Racing
Hellwig 55905 front sway bar- $297.03
1974 DODGE DART Hellwig 55905 Hellwig Motorsports Tubular Sway Bars | Summit Racing
Bergman Autocraft SPC UCA’s (1st gen)- $495
BAC/SPC 1.0 UPPER CONTROL ARM - Bergman Auto Craft
Bergman Autocraft 1.08” torsion bars- $385
Mopar A Body Torsion Bar Set 1.08" - Bergman Auto Craft
Proforged polyurethane control arm shaft kit w/bushings- $116.95
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 120-10003 Proforged Control Arm Shaft Kits | Summit Racing
Proforged Camber bolts - $36.04
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 120-10009 Proforged Camber Bolts | Summit Racing
DoctorDiff 73+ spindles- $175
Mopar Reproduction Disc Brake Knuckles for A/B/E Bodies
Borgeson box from BAC $849
BAC STEERING BOX CONVERSION KIT - LARGE SECTOR 73-82 - Bergman Auto Craft

Front total: $4,092.41 (power steering, pump and lines not included, that's for the RMS comparison part)

The rear suspension isn't a part of most of the kits, but here's a good start
Rear :

Hotchkis Sport Springs- $463.37
1974 DODGE DART Hotchkis Sport Suspension 24385 Hotchkis Sport Suspension Leaf Springs | Summit Racing
Hotchkis 1.5 shocks (adjustable)- $423.50 (both)
1974 DODGE DART Hotchkis Sport Suspension 71030015 Hotchkis Sport Suspension Adjustable Performance Series Shocks | Summit Racing
Hellwig rear sway bar 6907- $440.15
1974 DODGE DART Hellwig 6907 Hellwig Anti-Sway Bars | Summit Racing
Rear total: $1,327.02
Complete total: $5,419.43

Now, that list may be (and probably is) above and beyond what you want for the street. Most folks are happy without adjustable shocks, so you can save a bunch of money there and the Bilstein RCD's are very good. You also can save a TON of money if you rebuild your lower control arms and just box them vs using new tubular LCA's. And you may be able to reuse your stock camber bolts (and should if your are in good shape). Reading your first post you may already have disk brakes too, so you don't need the spindles. I'll leave the bolts and spindles in. If you make these replacements to the above list-

Bilstein RCD shocks front- $270
BILSTEIN SHOCKS - FRONT - A BODY MOPAR - Bergman Auto Craft
Bilstein RCD shocks rear- $254
BILSTEIN SHOCKS - REAR - A BODY MOPAR - Bergman Auto Craft

BAC lower control arm reinforcement plates - $30 ( to be welded to the factory LCA's)
Lower Control Arm Reinforcement Plate/Pr - Bergman Auto Craft
Ditching the Hotchkis adjustable shocks and QA1 tubular LCA's saves you $854.01 and brings you down to $4,565.42 for everything, front and rear. And that may still be a few hundred too high if you already have disk spindles.
Another item is the SPC UCA's. They're super nice, but for most street cars you don't need them and their adjustability will make it difficult to find an alignment shop that wants to deal with you. You can run QA1 UCA's, which come with upper ball joints, and should still have enough adjustability for a reasonable modern alignment with decent positive caster numbers....
QA1 Tubular UCA's - $436.95
QA1 TUBULAR UPPER CONTROL ARMS - Bergman Auto Craft

That saves you another $100.43 vs the SPC's. Personally, I think the SPC's are a much better part, but again, for a street car they're not necessary. I do love mine though, but I also do my own alignments.

Anyway, that gives you a list to pretty much fully rebuild all the suspension on your car. Clearly it uses a bunch of different parts, but I have run pretty much all of the parts above on my own cars for at least 30k+ street miles, and some as far as over 70k miles on my Challenger. Only thing I haven't dealt with at all is the Borgeson power steering.

I’m going to digest all of this tomorrow am and come back properly - but wow, thank you, this is exactly what I was looking for from expert folks like you on forabodiesonly - so grateful for this. Truly.

 

[BergmanAutoCraft]

The bottom line remains, Bergman Auto Craft is the ONLY supplier for complete steering and suspension parts all in ONE place. I also answer the phone and have a ton of experience.

 

[junkyardhero]

@72bluNblu broke it down succinctly with his question of what you want to do with the car.

when you're doing the front suspension you have to think of it like a system; everything has to work together and all the components have to complement each other in order for it to work correctly. you can have all the johnny kick *** stuff, but if none of it works together then you have a car that sucks to drive.

the second consideration is selection of items. if you want big aftermarket disc brakes you'll need big aftermarket wheels. big aftermarket wheels may not come in the style you like, or may necessitate a compromise in size to fit the body or your wallet. the same with something like control arms- you may not need adjustable tubular uppers, but you may want them. the bigger you go with t-bars the better the shocks need to be.

so even something that seems as trivial as: i want 13" brakes means considering other elements in the whole system.

if you've already got 73~76 disc brakes, and the lower control arms have tabs for a sway bar? that's the good bones for a decent set up. you can upgrade the master cylinder, upgrade the rotors, run aggressive pads, and fit a larger sway bar, knock on some larger t-bars, get some good shocks and then refresh the wear components (bushings mainly) with poly or upgraded pieces. adjustable strut rods and plating the LCA's are nice options, but i wouldn't call them necessary for a car that isn't expected to autocross.

in other other words there's a lot you can do with what you have and there's more that can always be done later. but if you start with a good foundation then those upgrades are easier down the line.

having an idea of what you want ride wise, and how you want it to look is a important first step. from there, you can make better informed decisions on specific components and where you want to spend that hard earned money and what you can reuse to save some of that dough.

 

[Norm.P]

Ok, this all makes sense. QA1's replacement parts for the torsion bar set up are good, I use a few of their parts. I wouldn't do their coil-over conversion, but it doesn't sound like that's the way you want to go. Hotchkis also makes great parts, but they're expensive and there are better "bang for you buck" parts out there for most of their parts. And some of their stuff I would not use on the street. I ran their tubular UCA's on my Challenger, and the heim joints at the UCA's only lasted about 7k miles. Hotchkis warrantied them for me, but even the replacement set is showing wear after another ~7k miles. For a street car I prefer to keep everything with bushings, although I replace all the rubber bushings with polyurethane or Delrin because they perform better and will last a lot longer if properly cared for.

The next thing is- I'm not a supplier or in the business of putting together kits. I have put together a few lists of parts with other retailers based on what I use on my own '74 Duster, which I use as my daily driver the majority of the time. The next big question for you is whether or not you want to just bolt everything on. This is my list for new parts everywhere, basically the closest you get for a full bolt on kit unless @BergmanAutoCraft has some updated offerings. I updated it at the end of December so the prices should be fairly accurate. This is the grand daddy of everything list, I put it together for a price comparison for all the guys that want to convert to RMS coil overs. So, with that said, there are a several large, expensive items that can be removed from the list if you want to save some money or are willing to rebuild some factory parts.

QA1 Adjustable strut bars - $286.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52311 QA1 Dynamic Adjustable Strut Bars | Summit Racing
QA1 LCA’s - $560.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52307 QA1 Mopar Control Arms | Summit Racing
QA1 tie rod sleeves- $80.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52325 QA1 Heavy-Duty Tie Rod Sleeves | Summit Racing
Proforged tie rod ends- $174.08 (all 4)
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10157 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pof-104-10156/make/dodge/model/dart/year/197
Proforged lower ball joint (driver)- $45.80
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10129 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
Proforged lower ball joint (passenger)- $45.80
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10128 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
Hotchkis Adjustable Shocks- $423.50
1974 DODGE DART Hotchkis Sport Suspension 70030013 Hotchkis Sport Suspension Tuned 1.5 Adjustable Performance Series Shocks | Summit Racing
Proforged ball joints- $42.38 (both included)
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10126 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
Moog idler - $35.99
1974 DODGE DART Moog Chassis Parts K7086 Moog Replacement Idler Arms | Summit Racing
Hellwig 55905 front sway bar- $297.03
1974 DODGE DART Hellwig 55905 Hellwig Motorsports Tubular Sway Bars | Summit Racing
Bergman Autocraft SPC UCA’s (1st gen)- $495
BAC/SPC 1.0 UPPER CONTROL ARM - Bergman Auto Craft
Bergman Autocraft 1.08” torsion bars- $385
Mopar A Body Torsion Bar Set 1.08" - Bergman Auto Craft
Proforged polyurethane control arm shaft kit w/bushings- $116.95
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 120-10003 Proforged Control Arm Shaft Kits | Summit Racing
Proforged Camber bolts - $36.04
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 120-10009 Proforged Camber Bolts | Summit Racing
DoctorDiff 73+ spindles- $175
Mopar Reproduction Disc Brake Knuckles for A/B/E Bodies
Borgeson box from BAC $849
BAC STEERING BOX CONVERSION KIT - LARGE SECTOR 73-82 - Bergman Auto Craft

Front total: $4,092.41 (power steering, pump and lines not included, that's for the RMS comparison part)

The rear suspension isn't a part of most of the kits, but here's a good start
Rear :

Hotchkis Sport Springs- $463.37
1974 DODGE DART Hotchkis Sport Suspension 24385 Hotchkis Sport Suspension Leaf Springs | Summit Racing
Hotchkis 1.5 shocks (adjustable)- $423.50 (both)
1974 DODGE DART Hotchkis Sport Suspension 71030015 Hotchkis Sport Suspension Adjustable Performance Series Shocks | Summit Racing
Hellwig rear sway bar 6907- $440.15
1974 DODGE DART Hellwig 6907 Hellwig Anti-Sway Bars | Summit Racing
Rear total: $1,327.02
Complete total: $5,419.43

Now, that list may be (and probably is) above and beyond what you want for the street. Most folks are happy without adjustable shocks, so you can save a bunch of money there and the Bilstein RCD's are very good. You also can save a TON of money if you rebuild your lower control arms and just box them vs using new tubular LCA's. And you may be able to reuse your stock camber bolts (and should if your are in good shape). Reading your first post you may already have disk brakes too, so you don't need the spindles. I'll leave the bolts and spindles in. If you make these replacements to the above list-

Bilstein RCD shocks front- $270
BILSTEIN SHOCKS - FRONT - A BODY MOPAR - Bergman Auto Craft
Bilstein RCD shocks rear- $254
BILSTEIN SHOCKS - REAR - A BODY MOPAR - Bergman Auto Craft

BAC lower control arm reinforcement plates - $30 ( to be welded to the factory LCA's)
Lower Control Arm Reinforcement Plate/Pr - Bergman Auto Craft
Ditching the Hotchkis adjustable shocks and QA1 tubular LCA's saves you $854.01 and brings you down to $4,565.42 for everything, front and rear. And that may still be a few hundred too high if you already have disk spindles.
Another item is the SPC UCA's. They're super nice, but for most street cars you don't need them and their adjustability will make it difficult to find an alignment shop that wants to deal with you. You can run QA1 UCA's, which come with upper ball joints, and should still have enough adjustability for a reasonable modern alignment with decent positive caster numbers....
QA1 Tubular UCA's - $436.95
QA1 TUBULAR UPPER CONTROL ARMS - Bergman Auto Craft

That saves you another $100.43 vs the SPC's. Personally, I think the SPC's are a much better part, but again, for a street car they're not necessary. I do love mine though, but I also do my own alignments.

Anyway, that gives you a list to pretty much fully rebuild all the suspension on your car. Clearly it uses a bunch of different parts, but I have run pretty much all of the parts above on my own cars for at least 30k+ street miles, and some as far as over 70k miles on my Challenger. Only thing I haven't dealt with at all is the Borgeson power steering.

Great list and thanks for posting! On the Hotchkis leaf springs, I don't really want to lower my car. Is there a provision available for stock height? Thanks in advance.

 

[abodyjoe]

call pete at bergman autocraft. he will set you up with everything ya need. Home - Bergman Auto Craft - Home of Quality Muscle Car Parts / while blue's list is nice it can get confusing for someone new to american muscle and you'll be ordering from all over the place. ypu can pretty much one stop shop with pete.

Hotchkis rear springs sit really low on dart/scamp type of body from the reviews i've read on this board...


Home - Bergman Auto Craft - Home of Quality Muscle Car Parts
1(516) 384-6438
bergmanautocraft@aol.com



,

 

[72bluNblu]

Great list and thanks for posting! On the Hotchkis leaf springs, I don't really want to lower my car. Is there a provision available for stock height? Thanks in advance.

Most of the lowering that occurs with the Hotchkis springs is the “geometry correcting” front hanger. If you use the factory front hanger the Hotchkis springs themselves are fairly close to stock ride height.

call pete at bergman autocraft. he will set you up with everything ya need. Home - Bergman Auto Craft - Home of Quality Muscle Car Parts / while blue's list is nice it can get confusing for someone new to american muscle and you'll be ordering from all over the place. ypu can pretty much one stop shop with pete.

Hotchkis rear springs sit really low on dart/scamp type of body from the reviews i've read on this board...


Home - Bergman Auto Craft - Home of Quality Muscle Car Parts
1(516) 384-6438
bergmanautocraft@aol.com



,

I agree that ordering everything without the help of a “kit” can be a little more confusing, especially for someone not well versed in Mopar suspensions.

But saying you have to order from “all over the place” is a bit misleading. The list that was quoted only comes from 3 places- Bergman AutoCraft, Summit Racing, and DoctorDiff.

Bergman AutoCraft is great, and Peter knows his stuff. And he has expanded his offerings to the point that you can one stop shop from BAC. But like any kit there are things in there you might want to swap out. BAC only offers the 1.08” torsion bars, for example. They’re a good choice for sure, but some people would be happier with PST 1.03’s and others might want Firm Feel’s 1.12’s. And that would mean ordering from more than one place. I think the end result is a lot more important than getting it all in one place.

 

[abodyjoe]

i believe bergman can offer different size bars. the 1.08 are the ones he recommends. sway away offers 1.03, 1.08 and 1.114 so i'd guess he would sell any one of them you wanted.. and seriously, i doubt most would even know the difference. lol.... i'd much rather order from one stop shop, especially a small business who has been there and uses the parts they sell and can speak from their personal abody experience. especially being completely new to this style suspension.. but hey, thats me.

 

[dodgedifferent2]

Just a stock replacement setup for me. Mainly street.
Mopar action green brick formula

Archives

 

[BergmanAutoCraft]

Just a stock replacement setup for me. Mainly street.
Mopar action green brick formula

Archives

For those looking for a higher level, things have evolved greatly since then.

 

[abodyjoe]

For those looking for a higher level, things have evolved greatly since then.

maybe you can elaborate some.. explain where things have gone.

 

[dodgedifferent2]

May have changed, but price point is still expensive.

No need to get into a pissing match again. Just throwing out options.

 

[BergmanAutoCraft]

May have changed, but price point is still expensive.

No need to get into a pissing match again. Just throwing out options.

This is exactly what I'm doing, throwing out options. Their is nothing wrong with more offerings in the market. Expensive is also a relative term. It comes down to priority. Many put a large portion of their budget into engine work, only to neglect steering, suspension and brakes.

The goal of my company is to offer the best, not the cheapest. My 38 years of A body ownership with 250,000 road miles has taught me alot about what works and what doesn't.
The green brick had some good things for the time, but was also piloted by a driver who was fast and crashed twice during one lap.

Since then we have much better upper arms that can handle much more modern alignment specs that yield better performance for any driver. This increases confidence, safety and enjoyment. We now have delrin lower arm bushings, which help offer the same, except with the longest life, one and done. Better shocks, strut rods, tires, etc.

We are also the only company that offers any combination of steering and suspension in one place. Our suspension kits include pitmans, roller idlers and tie rods sets. Nobody else does that. We offer carbon kevlar pads and shoes for all mopars. Nobody else does that either. All under one roof, sold by someone who is reachable and knowledgeable.

 

[-Boosted-]

I’m going to digest all of this tomorrow am and come back properly - but wow, thank you, this is exactly what I was looking for from expert folks like you on forabodiesonly - so grateful for this. Truly.

I sent you a message.

Thanks, Bill

 

[72bluNblu]

i believe bergman can offer different size bars. the 1.08 are the ones he recommends. sway away offers 1.03, 1.08 and 1.114 so i'd guess he would sell any one of them you wanted.. and seriously, i doubt most would even know the difference. lol.... i'd much rather order from one stop shop, especially a small business who has been there and uses the parts they sell and can speak from their personal abody experience. especially being completely new to this style suspension.. but hey, thats me.

If someone can’t tell the difference between 1.03” bars and 1.14” bars they probably shouldn’t be doing suspension work! If his bars are from Sway Away that makes sense, more options there for sure.

Firm Feel is also a small business that has been making Mopar suspension and steering products for a long time and has a ton of experience. So is DoctorDiff, for that matter.

Again, nothing against BergmanAutoCraft, I have plenty of BAC parts on my car and they’re awesome, Peter sells great stuff and he’s the only supplier for some of my favorite parts (Delrin bushings, modified SPC UCA’s). But I also have parts from Firm Feel, and DoctorDiff, and others.

Setting up a car depends a lot on application and driver’s preference, and getting it dialed in can mean sourcing parts from multiple places. The more options out there the better!

May have changed, but price point is still expensive.

No need to get into a pissing match again. Just throwing out options.

The Green Brick was a great start for when it was, but tire compounds, shock technology, brakes etc have all made huge advances since then. The Green Brick would not be nearly as successful with that set up at todays street car challenges and AutoX’s.

And honestly, some of the stock parts used on the brick are not cheap to find in good condition anymore. The aluminum 3rd member sure as heck isn’t! Mopar Performance torsion bars aren’t cheap either. Innovative at the time, but it’s half measures compared to what’s available now.

This is exactly what I'm doing, throwing out options. There is nothing wrong with more offerings in the market. Expensive is also a relative term. It comes down to priority. Many put a large portion of their budget into engine work, only to neglect steering, suspension and brakes.

The goal of my company is to offer the best, not the cheapest. My 38 years of A body ownership with 250,000 road miles has taught me alot about what works and what doesn't.
The green brick had some good things for the time, but was also piloted by a driver who was fast and crashed twice during one lap.

Since then we have much better upper arms that can handle much more modern alignment specs that yield better performance for any driver. This increases confidence, safety and enjoyment. We now have delrin lower arm bushings, which help offer the same, except with the longest life, one and done. Better shocks, strut rods, tires, etc.

We are also the only company that offers any combination of steering and suspension in one place. Our suspension kits include pitmans, roller idlers and tie rods sets. Nobody else does that. We offer carbon kevlar pads and shoes for all mopars. Nobody else does that either. All under one roof, sold by someone who is reachable and knowledgeable.

Uh, Firm Feel offers suspension and steering parts in one place. You have a few more options, but, they still offer both.

When I built my Challenger, Firm Feel was really the only place to go for serious handling parts. Reinforced K frames, torsion bars, sway bars, rebuilt steering boxes with fast ratio chucks, poly and nylon bushings, tubular tie rod adjusters, pitman and idler arms, roller bearing idlers, sector support braces, adjustable strut rods (before QA1 made them!) custom leaf springs, Bilstein shocks, etc. And you can absolutely call them up and have a meaningful conversation about setting up your car for your own application, I have.

I’m not trying to knock you or your business, as you know I run a ton of your parts and I love all of them. The roller bearing idler I installed a little while back is awesome, and made a huge difference in steering effort. But, yeah, I have awesome parts from Firm Feel too. It’s great that there’s multiple places to go now where someone looking to set up a great handling Mopar can go or call and get experienced advice and great parts. The more options out there the better!