Intermittent Ignition Issue [66 Valiant /6]

[jacraest]

I hate to post "in a time of great need thing" but I'd rather not get towed.

My first valiant ignition issue occurred when I suddenly had no crank or click when the ignition spun in it's hole. Both accessory positions still worked. I took it out, wiggled it, and it started working again. It broke again. Sudden no crank or click after being driven. Wiggling didn't work. There was a wire that was connected between two of the terminals, but I forgot which one it was. There are these plugs: IGN1, IG2, GRD, STR, AND GRD. All are connected except the GRD terminal. GRD was never connected to anything. Any ideas? Thx. I have wiring diagrams available.

 

[67Dart273]

If this is a matter of getting it home..........

Open hood, and locate the ballast resistor for the coil. Long white rectangular ceramic, mounted either on driver side firewall or fender apron. Unplug either end. Use whatever you can find to jumper Power to first one wire, then the other from the battery. Whichever end lights up your warning lights on the dash is the end you want to connect to the battery. Now reconnect the ballast wires with that end of the wiring which you determined also jumpered to the battery. So now you have the ballast re-connected, battery clipped / hot wired to one end, and the warning light(s) on the dash should be on.

Now take a screwdriver or even a coin, and MAKING CERTAIN that the gearbox is in neutral, or the shifter in park, jumper across the two exposed terminals on the start relay. Engine should start and run, and you should have a working charging system as evidenced by proper action of the ammeter

 

[jacraest]

If this is a matter of getting it home..........

Open hood, and locate the ballast resistor for the coil. Long white rectangular ceramic, mounted either on driver side firewall or fender apron. Unplug either end. Use whatever you can find to jumper Power to first one wire, then the other from the battery. Whichever end lights up your warning lights on the dash is the end you want to connect to the battery. Now reconnect the ballast wires with that end of the wiring which you determined also jumpered to the battery. So now you have the ballast re-connected, battery clipped / hot wired to one end, and the warning light(s) on the dash should be on.

Now take a screwdriver or even a coin, and MAKING CERTAIN that the gearbox is in neutral, or the shifter in park, jumper across the two exposed terminals on the start relay. Engine should start and run, and you should have a working charging system as evidenced by proper action of the ammeter

The car's been converted to an electronic ignition system. Would that change anything? Also hold on, gotta look for some lengths of wire near me that I can use to run it all the way from the battery to the ignition coil.

 

[TrailBeast]

Turn the key on and jump across these two.

 

[jacraest]

Turn the key on and jump across these two.

View attachment 1716178918

The starter relay only has two terminals - both go to the ignition area (one a screw mount, other tang). I have another starter relay that looks like that, do you think the actual issue lies in the starter relay?

 

[TrailBeast]

The starter relay only has two terminals - both go to the ignition area (one a screw mount, other tang). I have another starter relay that looks like that, do you think the actual issue lies in the starter relay?

Actually I think the crank contacts in the ignition switch is worn out.

Turn on the key and short across those two contacts.
Car should start and run.

 

[67Dart273]

Actually I think the crank contacts in the ignition switch is worn out.

Turn on the key and short across those two contacts.
Car should start and run.

You are very likely right, TB OP your start relay will not have the one at top left in the diagram, and the the one below the stud will be what I call lthe "square screw" terminal. There are only two exposed relay terminals. The "big stud" which goes to the battery, and the "square screw" and that leads down to the starter solenoid.

 

[67Dart273]

The car's been converted to an electronic ignition system. Would that change anything? Also hold on, gotta look for some lengths of wire near me that I can use to run it all the way from the battery to the ignition coil.

If fiddling the switch does not get you power to the ignition switch, jumpering the ballast should be the same, except you may have a 4 pin ballast. HOWEVER the great majority of of Mopar ignition boxes do NOT need a 4 pin ballast. They only need 2.

If you have a 4 pin, I would jumper battery power to the coil directly. I would not run it any further or longer than necessary.

 

[jacraest]

If this is a matter of getting it home..........

Open hood, and locate the ballast resistor for the coil. Long white rectangular ceramic, mounted either on driver side firewall or fender apron. Unplug either end. Use whatever you can find to jumper Power to first one wire, then the other from the battery. Whichever end lights up your warning lights on the dash is the end you want to connect to the battery. Now reconnect the ballast wires with that end of the wiring which you determined also jumpered to the battery. So now you have the ballast re-connected, battery clipped / hot wired to one end, and the warning light(s) on the dash should be on.

Now take a screwdriver or even a coin, and MAKING CERTAIN that the gearbox is in neutral, or the shifter in park, jumper across the two exposed terminals on the start relay. Engine should start and run, and you should have a working charging system as evidenced by proper action of the ammeter

Actually I think the crank contacts in the ignition switch is worn out.

Turn on the key and short across those two contacts.
Car should start and run.

which two

Actually I think the crank contacts in the ignition switch is worn out.

Turn on the key and short across those two contacts.
Car should start and run.

the contacts on the relay or the ignition? shorted the ones on the relay and nothing happened. Key was in run position. Sorry for getting positions wrong, they are - GRD, ACC, ST, IGN1, IGN2, and BATT. Going between the ballast resistor and battery is a no go, can’t find anything I can connect them with.

 

[67Dart273]

IF YOU shorted, and I mean FOR SURE shorted the large exposed contacts on the start relay, and the engine DID NOT crank on the starter, you have something else wrong, and you may be on the wrong track, IE the ignition switch may not be THE problem

Clean check the battery terminals. Turn on the headlights, are they bright? Short the starter terminals. Any spark? Any sound at all from the starter? Check the battery cables, battery post connections, and ground at the block from the main battery ground cable, and the cable to the starter

Wiggle the cables, check for loose, heat, sparks, etc.

Also suspect a defective or dead battery

 

[67Dart273]

Just for clarity, let's repeat, STARTER RELAY. You have THREE terminals if a stick shift, FOUR terminals if an automatic. The smaller ones are "push on" or flag terminals. Those are small, and booted/ insulated. Only the large stud, and the one beside it, the big square screw terminal, are bare. Those two are what you jump.

In this photo, "B" (battery) and "S" (solenoid)

 

[jacraest]

IF YOU shorted, and I mean FOR SURE shorted the large exposed contacts on the start relay, and the engine DID NOT crank on the starter, you have something else wrong, and you may be on the wrong track, IE the ignition switch may not be THE problem

Clean check the battery terminals. Turn on the headlights, are they bright? Short the starter terminals. Any spark? Any sound at all from the starter? Check the battery cables, battery post connections, and ground at the block from the main battery ground cable, and the cable to the starter

Wiggle the cables, check for loose, heat, sparks, etc.

Also suspect a defective or dead battery

Battery is at 12.3v. Shorts at starter. Battery connectors good. Ground wire from battery to block is good. Starter cables good. My relay only has 2 posts on it.

 

[jacraest]

Battery is at 12.3v. Shorts at starter. Battery connectors good. Ground wire from battery to block is good. Starter cables good. My relay only has 2 posts on it.

When I short on the other one I have between bat and sol, nothing happens but a spark. As in I replaced the old relay with this one you pictured, hooked up the battery, ignition, and solenoid, and got a spark when I shorted the solenoid and batt terminal. Car ran and drove today with no problems.

 

[67Dart273]

If it won't crank when you short the two STARTER SOLENOID terminals AT THE starter (please be SPECIFIC) then you have got the trouble down to just a very few things

1....Forementioned cables and connections. You can NOT test these "not under load" with a voltmeter
2...Bad starter

You did not mention doing what I asked

TURN ON THE HEADLIGHTS.

Then jumper the solenoid. What happens?

There is a VERY GOOD REASON for being SPECIFIC

When you turn on the headlights, this LOADS the circuit, but only some amount. The headlights should light nice and bright. This at least shows that you have some continuity in the electrical system/ cables/ connections, and that the battery is able to provide SOME current

NEXT jumper the solenoid

Does the starter crank the engine? No? Do the headlights dim WAY down? Not at all? go clear out?

If the lights dim not at all, you probably have a bad starter, BUT CONFIRM

If they go clear out, you most likely still have cable/ connection problems, or a defective battery. YOU CAN NOT TEST a battery NOT UNDER LOAD with a voltmeter

 

[jacraest]

If it won't crank when you short the two STARTER SOLENOID terminals AT THE starter (please be SPECIFIC) then you have got the trouble down to just a very few things

1....Forementioned cables and connections. You can NOT test these "not under load" with a voltmeter
2...Bad starter

You did not mention doing what I asked

TURN ON THE HEADLIGHTS.

Then jumper the solenoid. What happens?

There is a VERY GOOD REASON for being SPECIFIC

When you turn on the headlights, this LOADS the circuit, but only some amount. The headlights should light nice and bright. This at least shows that you have some continuity in the electrical system/ cables/ connections, and that the battery is able to provide SOME current

NEXT jumper the solenoid

Does the starter crank the engine? No? Do the headlights dim WAY down? Not at all? go clear out?

If the lights dim not at all, you probably have a bad starter, BUT CONFIRM

If they go clear out, you most likely still have cable/ connection problems, or a defective battery. YOU CAN NOT TEST a battery NOT UNDER LOAD with a voltmeter

Did not think of that. Sheesh I never would have thought of the headlights doing all that in a thousand years. I’ll try all that tomorrow after work. Thanks for all the advice. Ended up calling AAA. Will follow up tmrw WITH the headlight starter relay short test.

 

[cudamark]

I hate to post "in a time of great need thing" but I'd rather not get towed.

My first valiant ignition issue occurred when I suddenly had no crank or click when the ignition spun in it's hole. Both accessory positions still worked. I took it out, wiggled it, and it started working again. It broke again. Sudden no crank or click after being driven. Wiggling didn't work. There was a wire that was connected between two of the terminals, but I forgot which one it was. There are these plugs: IGN1, IG2, GRD, STR, AND GRD. All are connected except the GRD terminal. GRD was never connected to anything. Any ideas? Thx. I have wiring diagrams available.

Sounds like a starter or starter relay issue, not an ignition issue. Could be ignition switch or bad connection somewhere too....even battery cable. As mentioned, you just need to trace where you have good juice to where you don't.

 

[Bewy]

12.3v is low bat voltage. A fully charged bat is 12.6-7v.

Whether that bat will crank at lower than optimum voltage will depend on wiring resistance, condition of the starter internals etc.

 

[jacraest]

If it won't crank when you short the two STARTER SOLENOID terminals AT THE starter (please be SPECIFIC) then you have got the trouble down to just a very few things

1....Forementioned cables and connections. You can NOT test these "not under load" with a voltmeter
2...Bad starter

You did not mention doing what I asked

TURN ON THE HEADLIGHTS.

Then jumper the solenoid. What happens?

There is a VERY GOOD REASON for being SPECIFIC

When you turn on the headlights, this LOADS the circuit, but only some amount. The headlights should light nice and bright. This at least shows that you have some continuity in the electrical system/ cables/ connections, and that the battery is able to provide SOME current

NEXT jumper the solenoid

Does the starter crank the engine? No? Do the headlights dim WAY down? Not at all? go clear out?

If the lights dim not at all, you probably have a bad starter, BUT CONFIRM

If they go clear out, you most likely still have cable/ connection problems, or a defective battery. YOU CAN NOT TEST a battery NOT UNDER LOAD with a voltmeter

If it won't crank when you short the two STARTER SOLENOID terminals AT THE starter (please be SPECIFIC) then you have got the trouble down to just a very few things

1....Forementioned cables and connections. You can NOT test these "not under load" with a voltmeter
2...Bad starter

You did not mention doing what I asked

TURN ON THE HEADLIGHTS.

Then jumper the solenoid. What happens?

There is a VERY GOOD REASON for being SPECIFIC

When you turn on the headlights, this LOADS the circuit, but only some amount. The headlights should light nice and bright. This at least shows that you have some continuity in the electrical system/ cables/ connections, and that the battery is able to provide SOME current

NEXT jumper the solenoid

Does the starter crank the engine? No? Do the headlights dim WAY down? Not at all? go clear out?

If the lights dim not at all, you probably have a bad starter, BUT CONFIRM

If they go clear out, you most likely still have cable/ connection problems, or a defective battery. YOU CAN NOT TEST a battery NOT UNDER LOAD with a voltmeter

Ok, what the hell.
Just came back to the car after work today, and it cranks. I had the car towed, let it sit overnight, and now it’s cranking again. The new starter relay isn’t even connected to the battery on the BAT connection. Just via the ignition and the solenoid.

 

[67Dart273]

Ok, what the hell.
Just came back to the car after work today, and it cranks. I had the car towed, let it sit overnight, and now it’s cranking again. The new starter relay isn’t even connected to the battery on the BAT connection. Just via the ignition and the solenoid.

No idea what this means, can you post a photo?

 

[67Dart273]

There is only so much we can do by guess and gosh by remote control. Do you have wiring diagrams/ service manual? It might be time to find the local equivalent to "one of us" who can take a look at the thing.

Has the wiring been hacked up or what?

 

[jacraest]

No idea what this means, can you post a photo?

The one you sent earlier, the one with 4 terminals (BAT, IGN, SOL,GRD). I switched it back to the original two tang one with the screw connector and the tang. (FLN, IGN) and it still works. Definitely not the relay then. Problem lies elsewhere. Wiring has definitely been fucked with, Many previous owners and 60 something years on this earth haven’t been kind to it. Pics might be low resolution so wiring diagrams are available here - Wiring – MyMopar

 

[Mattax]

Still no idea what you have in front of you.
We don't need to see a diagram. You need to show us what you are working with.

Without that, best we can do here is explain how it is supposed to work.

First. Before any testing, slow charge the battery with a charger.
12.3 Volts with nothing on is on the low side.
With the starter engaged it should be above 9.5 Volts. This is a load test and reveals the charge state and condition better than measuring with no load.

Starting sequence illustrated here.

How the starter relay works.

 

[Mattax]

Current flow immediately after starting.

 

[jacraest]

Battery (after two 30 min drive and sitting for a half hour) measured 12.9v. On startup fell to 12.6v before stabilizing again at 12.5 on idle. Attached pics show battery connections, current starter relay, old one, and the other new one that also worked (yellow). Need a pic of the ignition? Car has an aftermarket temp gauge that comes on with either accessory position, a speedometer that plugs into the cigarette lighter and an aftermarket tach.

 

[cudamark]

I'm not seeing a current starter relay....only the new one in the last photo. The other photos show the voltage regulator and the battery. 12.5 volts at idle is low. Does it go up if you raise the RPM? How old is that battery? Have you done a load test on it?