internally balanced 360 crank (BIG PROBLEM) need input
- Thread starter victoriabc67dart
- Start date
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moper
Well-Known Member
Holy ****. I dont ususally swear but what the f*** were they thinking? I would NOT do any more than try to get your money back. Anyone who would assemble a grenade like that should be dropping oil and filters at Jiffy Lube. Not working on engines.
Mo-Par
Well-Known Member
The shop that balanced it and the shop that assembled it are both amatuers and should not be used by anyone. Period.
victoriabc67dart
Member
i talked to the guy who did the crank today and he said he see the motor witch is fair im going to pull it out tonight and put it on an engine stand so it can be inspected he told me if his crank failed he would cover the cost of all the parts and all the fluids and rebuild it all at his shop on his dime i asked him if he would cover the cost of me having to pull it all out and then reinstall it all and he basically said no then my friend said what if we weren't capable of doing all of that and had to pay someone to do it and he said that i would ave to eat the cost which i think is bull but whatever i then told him that if it was his fault and he fully rebuilt the motor that (no disrespect) but i would not feel safe putting that engine in my car he got all pissed obviously and then i told him the only way i would feel good about it would be if i took it to a shop of my choice to someone i knew and had it done where i can see it and be a part of the rebuild and he flips the bill for parts and labor he got all choked again and said if thats how i want to handle it then he will refund the money for the balance of the crank and that i would have to go after the guy who built my motor and he would have to deal with them. i then asked what his warranty on his engines is and he said 1 year or 20 000 km i told him i might think about letting him rebuild it (in the back of my head thinking there is no ******* way this guy is touching my motor) then he kinda comes around and goes if we can deal with it like that then maybe i can try and figure out some labor money for you for doing the re and re on the motor. so basically im gonna pull the motor and i want him to come take it apart in front of me either at his shop or at my house im not gonna give it to him to hammer on something and then try to blame it on something else i want to be there when he see's what happend to it and i want it fixed at the shop of my choice does that not seem reasonable? all i know is i am stressed out to the max and im only 24 i cant afford to lose all my hair also big thank to everyone's comments im gonna go look for another hole that may have come out of if not i will still assume he just welded on a chunk of **** to the crank ill post some photos tonight or tomorrow
Mad Dart
Nothing to see Here!
Nope you usually don't no matter what is going on.......... I had to put it in quotes...... Lol
Mad Dart
Nothing to see Here!
Your situation Sucks bad. I know I have been there before about 3 or so years ago. Got jacked over for about $2800.00 , My advise to you is get what you can as far as $$ from these guys and count the rest as a Loss and a Paid for education into this game.
If you don't and let this guy build you an engine it could very well cost you and those around you their lives if it comes apart at speed after he gets the engine back to you. If it comes apart at 80MPH in the same situation but with you on the gas. You could for sure loose control of the car from all the fluid and shrapnel getting on your tires......... Get what you can and RUN as fast as you can away from these clowns!
If you don't and let this guy build you an engine it could very well cost you and those around you their lives if it comes apart at speed after he gets the engine back to you. If it comes apart at 80MPH in the same situation but with you on the gas. You could for sure loose control of the car from all the fluid and shrapnel getting on your tires......... Get what you can and RUN as fast as you can away from these clowns!
turbodart68
Well-Known Member
I agree with mad dart. I would get a refund on whatever you paid him and if he doesn't play then sue him. Thats total BS. :wack:
Just for your own knowledge, the counter weight in the pictures runs very close to the oil pump. Anyone who has ever built a 360 knows what I am talking about. Sometimes the oil pump will need to be ground to clear the crank counter weight. The piece that you see floating around came from somewhere else. I have seen people weld mallory metal (a very heavy dense metal used in balancing of cranks) in the counter weight like yours was and it will fling out from centrifugal force at 7k rpm. No pro would do that to an engine. The metal needs to be added to the counter weight from the side so that it has no way to escape. The counter weight where you thought that piece was welded to is actually a slug of mallory metal still intact on the crank. Red flag number one. Mad dart is right build it yourself, its actually very easy and rewarding. Plus you will save a ton of dough.
Just for your own knowledge, the counter weight in the pictures runs very close to the oil pump. Anyone who has ever built a 360 knows what I am talking about. Sometimes the oil pump will need to be ground to clear the crank counter weight. The piece that you see floating around came from somewhere else. I have seen people weld mallory metal (a very heavy dense metal used in balancing of cranks) in the counter weight like yours was and it will fling out from centrifugal force at 7k rpm. No pro would do that to an engine. The metal needs to be added to the counter weight from the side so that it has no way to escape. The counter weight where you thought that piece was welded to is actually a slug of mallory metal still intact on the crank. Red flag number one. Mad dart is right build it yourself, its actually very easy and rewarding. Plus you will save a ton of dough.
inkjunkie
Well-Known Member
With all the knowledgeable folks around here if you run into any troubles help will always just be a keyboard away.......
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
Totally agree. I wouldn't let that clown work on my bicycle after seeing his work
moper
Well-Known Member
You're only 24 - welcome to the wonderful world of reality. This is why those who have been burnt (me too - decades ago) give advice about finding a good shop and paying what they charge. It's BS in my opinion that he offers to refund the balance work. The shop that did the balancing should refund the balance costs to the builder. The builder should refund the balance work, all the required replacement parts costs, and at minimum the assembly costs to the customer (you). You are walking out with a machined block (how good - who knows but it was running well by your own admission) and heads and some reuseable parts. So 100% I could not see as fair. I also wouldn't give a dime for install unless I knew you paid someone to do it the first time.
take the cash and walk - find a better shop and call it lesson learned. It's not worth dwelling on - it's just money and you'll be tossing a bunch more around in the future.
take the cash and walk - find a better shop and call it lesson learned. It's not worth dwelling on - it's just money and you'll be tossing a bunch more around in the future.
Guitar Jones
aka Angry Johnny
Well, this is my take. He has offered to repair your engine for no charge and maybe even give you a little money for the R&R. That seems totally fair to me. Everybody makes mistakes and no I don't think tacking a chunk of metal to the counterweight is proper.
I would let him repair it on his dime, get what money you can from him then I would take the repaired engine apart and check everything. Get what ever you want fixed, fixed somewhere else and move on.
I would let him repair it on his dime, get what money you can from him then I would take the repaired engine apart and check everything. Get what ever you want fixed, fixed somewhere else and move on.
tubtar
Well-Known Member
Pretty solid advice I'd say.
Triple check everything when you get it back.
There are a few affordable crank shaft options out there , so I'd probably think long and hard at throwing a lot of money at a stock one.
MoparDaddy
Damn Right I Carry!
If let him try again. Inform him that the weight will need a MUCH BETTER weld and see what happens. With a 1yr warranty it will be his fault if it happens again. At that point, IF it fails. you will have great ground to go after him, keep all these photos and even print this thread and put it in a safe place you won't forget about in case this happens again.
DaveBonds
Garage Trash
Throw that crankshaft in the trash.
Unless he is willing to pay someone else to have that cast crank magnaflux checked for cracks at his expense and give you a receipt from their shop with contact info, that crank is garbage.
A balancing shop may be able to correct that crank, but after it bounced hard enough to crack a main cap, I wouldn't trust it as far as I could throw it without checking it.
If it were my engine, I'd check the main bearing saddles for cracks too and possibly just have the block torn down to have it magnaflux checked after something like that happened.
The bearings are garbage now, too. When that weight came off, that crank was no longer balanced, even if it ever was and that takes a toll on bearings and journals.
As previously posted, you go into the side of the counterweight with moly, like this-
Take him up on his warranty. End of debate. I know he wants to fix the engine and I'm willing to bet that most of the work done was probably pretty sound, with the exception of the crank.
The only exception to doing that, in my opinion, would be to tell him that the crank needs to be balanced by an experienced balancer, using the method shown above and that the block is magnafluxed by another shop, to check it for damage, as well as the crank, if it is intended for reusing.
Anything else on the lower end of the engine that could potentially be reused should be checked.
A friend of mine rearended someone in a left turn lane that stomped the brakes, after oncoming traffic ran a red light. The shock to the car caused the timing chain to jump a tooth. Fortunately for him, it wasn't enough to hurt anything else, other than the timing set and made it run awful, but the point is; shock can do unseen things to engines. For all you know, you could have invisible cracks in ring lands or in a connecting rod, connecting rod bolt or anything else down there that may last several thousand miles and fail, without inspecting.
You wouldn't throw a transmission in reverse at 40 and expect it to be ok, without inspecting it. All of those parts in that engine were hammered hard. The timing chain could have also been stretched.
Tear it apart, check everything for cracks and don't run any risks, regardless of who you decide builds the engine.
Unless he is willing to pay someone else to have that cast crank magnaflux checked for cracks at his expense and give you a receipt from their shop with contact info, that crank is garbage.
A balancing shop may be able to correct that crank, but after it bounced hard enough to crack a main cap, I wouldn't trust it as far as I could throw it without checking it.
If it were my engine, I'd check the main bearing saddles for cracks too and possibly just have the block torn down to have it magnaflux checked after something like that happened.
The bearings are garbage now, too. When that weight came off, that crank was no longer balanced, even if it ever was and that takes a toll on bearings and journals.
As previously posted, you go into the side of the counterweight with moly, like this-
Take him up on his warranty. End of debate. I know he wants to fix the engine and I'm willing to bet that most of the work done was probably pretty sound, with the exception of the crank.
The only exception to doing that, in my opinion, would be to tell him that the crank needs to be balanced by an experienced balancer, using the method shown above and that the block is magnafluxed by another shop, to check it for damage, as well as the crank, if it is intended for reusing.
Anything else on the lower end of the engine that could potentially be reused should be checked.
A friend of mine rearended someone in a left turn lane that stomped the brakes, after oncoming traffic ran a red light. The shock to the car caused the timing chain to jump a tooth. Fortunately for him, it wasn't enough to hurt anything else, other than the timing set and made it run awful, but the point is; shock can do unseen things to engines. For all you know, you could have invisible cracks in ring lands or in a connecting rod, connecting rod bolt or anything else down there that may last several thousand miles and fail, without inspecting.
You wouldn't throw a transmission in reverse at 40 and expect it to be ok, without inspecting it. All of those parts in that engine were hammered hard. The timing chain could have also been stretched.
Tear it apart, check everything for cracks and don't run any risks, regardless of who you decide builds the engine.
Bulldozer
free ice cream sandwiches
if it were mine , they would never get another crack at it. my engines will never be someones science project or practice tool.
MoparDaddy
Damn Right I Carry!
The way I see it, everyone messes up sometimes. He's willing to try and make it right.
Bulldozer
free ice cream sandwiches
what ever happens I hope they fix it
Yes, he has offered to warranty it, I say let him. It sounds like he's trying to do the right thing to me.
MoparDaddy
Damn Right I Carry!
I would, but the shop has also offered to an opportunity to make it right.
I have been looking at some videos on balancing a crank shaft and can anyone tell me the advantage of internal balancing a crank ?
I agree when the plug came out of the crank that was put in the wrong way that the crank and block took a beating... whose Idea was it to change to an eternal balanced crank
anyway..
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UNLrXUL49w"]How to Balance internally & externally balanced Crankshafts (Crank) - YouTube[/ame]
I agree when the plug came out of the crank that was put in the wrong way that the crank and block took a beating... whose Idea was it to change to an eternal balanced crank
anyway..
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UNLrXUL49w"]How to Balance internally & externally balanced Crankshafts (Crank) - YouTube[/ame]
I would be too.....but if they offered to make a warranty repair, I might let them do it......but I wouldn't be in that situation to begin with because I put all my stuff together.
I find myself now in life needin help with the bigger things ......like INSTALLIN the thing. LOL
moper
Well-Known Member
My point is he's not trustworthy in regard to his abilities. I've been in and out of machine shops since I was 16 and i'm 42. I've seen some scary stuff that held together and some that didn't. But I've never seen weight stuck in a tube and tack welded to a counterweight. NEVER. If he got the crank back from the balancer in that shape he should have sent it back once he stopped laughing. He didn't. And because he didn't I'd be frightened to the point that I'd rather not have a well-meaning but ignorant guy trying again. I have friends that own shops local to me. I drive an hour away to go to a guy I know is capable and my friends I stay friends.
moper
Well-Known Member
360s are all external balance because the factory cast iron cranks don't have enough meat to internally balance the piston and rod combo.
The main advantage is it places the counterbalancing weight inside the main caps. That reduces stress and flexing and torsional harmonics in any crank. That adds up to more ability to handle more power, more power out the back, smoothness, better fuel economy, and better life span. Additionally it allows you to use any neutral harmonic dampener and any neutral flex plate and convertor/flywheel.
I internally balance everything I do for those reasons.
Bulldozer
free ice cream sandwiches
exactly, even if it took me 15 times to get it right, I KNOW it was done right, and its not going to come apart.
moper
Well-Known Member
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