Issues with alignment

[straightlinespeed]

Hey guys and gals,

I rebuilt my suspension over the winter. I used the Moog offset bushings. I installed them using the diagram below. Front arrows pointing to the ball joint, Rear pointing to the engine.

View attachment Moog7103InstallInstructions.jpg

I was shooting for the typical performance specs in this chart.

View attachment Alignment Specs.jpg

I was watching them and assisting the whole time and this is the best they could get, using a laser alignment.

Drivers side
Camber -0.4*
Caster 5.4*
Toe .13*

Passengers side
Camber 0.2*
Caster 5.1*
Toe .12*

My UCA's are all the way out in the front, and all the way back in the rear. If they moved the cam for the fronts towards the outside of the car in the camber when way positive.

If they moved the cam's for the rear the caster went higher, at one point it was 6.7*. So we just adjusted the Toe so it wouldnt eat the tires up for the time being. Im also wondering if the cam position matters when I put them in.. Im assuming not, but just curious? What is going on?

 

[TrailBeast]

I think what happened is you took the arrows in the diagram as meaning the same as the arrows on the bushings.
A visual check can verify this.
On the front side of the A arms the offset hole in the bushing should be toward the engine, and the holes in the rear of the A arm should be away from the engine.

This is the only thing I can imagine happened because I was able to get +3 caster on both wheels easy.

Toe in would be about 1/8 with rubber lower control arm and strut bushings, and 1/16 with poly lower control arm and strut bushings.

 

[omahamoparguy]

there are a lot of things that could affect the caster. just the factory tolerances could "stack up" to change things. hence the reason for adjustability in the first place. things like ride height, strut bushings, vehicle rake. the problem solver bushings are used to solve problems and alot of the guys use them for enhanced caster but sometimes they are not necessary. lowering the car alters the caster because of the hughe amount of anti-dive built into the upper control arms. I would look for another set of stock upper control arms and install with stock bushings or replace one or both of the 2 bushings on each control arm you now have with a stck bushing. pay close attention to the strut bushings as sometime the aftermarket ones are not exactly the same size as the stock pieces. make sure all the measurements are taken with the car at the ride height the you will be at while driving. That is all that I can think of. hope it helps.

 

[straightlinespeed]

I think what happened is you took the arrows in the diagram as meaning the same as the arrows on the bushings.
A visual check can verify this.
On the front side of the A arms the offset hole in the bushing should be toward the engine, and the holes in the rear of the A arm should be away from the engine.

This is the only thing I can imagine happened because I was able to get +3 caster on both wheels easy.

Toe in would be about 1/8 with rubber lower control arm and strut bushings, and 1/16 with poly lower control arm and strut bushings.

Greg, you nailed it! I also got a phone call from a great member and moderator C. Thank you to the both of you! I did install them the wrong way. :wack: I'll be pulling it back apart today and swapping them around. DOH!:banghead:

 

[TrailBeast]

Greg, you nailed it! I also got a phone call from a great member and moderator C. Thank you to the both of you! I did install them the wrong way. :wack: I'll be pulling it back apart today and swapping them around. DOH!:banghead:

Yea, I was going to suggest C since there is a lot of experience in such things there.

It sucks to have to do it over, but at least you have the answer to what's going on now.

 

[autoxcuda]

I don't understand what the problem is. You got over 3 degrees positive caster on both side (5.4 and 5.1) . Are you worried that is too much?

I think IF there was adjustment left, you could put the passenger rear cam inward you could get the camber to 0 and the caster even closer to the drivers side. Although those both will reduce the compensation for road camber. How important that is to you depends on the road you drive on most frequently.

How about driving it like it is now on the open highway and in town and see how you like it?

I'd like to know if you feel it wonders on the highway? And what the car does after hitting small bumps and lump on the highway?

 

[67Dart273]

My UCA's are all the way out in the front, and all the way back in the rear. If they moved the cam for the fronts towards the outside of the car in the camber when way positive.

.....

I don't understand what the problem is. You got over 3 degrees positive caster on both side (5.4 and 5.1)

I think IF there was adjustment left, you could put the passenger rear cam inward you could get the camber to 0 and the caster even closer to the drivers side. Although those both will reduce the compensation for road camber. How important that is to you depends on the road you drive on most frequently.

All in all sounds like a decent alignment guy.

I'm with AutoX What the op describes is MAX caster. Front out, rear in, moves the upper ball BACK. So if you move the rear out a tad, and the front in a tad, That should compensate camber. Moving the front in more than the rear out should tip the tire in, adding NEG camber. What numbers are you looking for?

 

[straightlinespeed]

Yea, I was going to suggest C since there is a lot of experience in such things there.

It sucks to have to do it over, but at least you have the answer to what's going on now.

Well down side Greg, I did have the installed correctly! Offset to the engine in the front and away from the engine in the rear. After another phone call with C we talked more about them. How it was aligned, what happened when one was turned and the other to compensate it, etc.. It was determined that my car doesnt need the offset bushings and it was just way to much for it, so I pulled them back out and reinstalled the standard ones. I'm going back to the shop on Monday and I can keep you posted as to the end numbers will be with those bushings.

I don't understand what the problem is. You got over 3 degrees positive caster on both side (5.4 and 5.1) . Are you worried that is too much?

I think IF there was adjustment left, you could put the passenger rear cam inward you could get the camber to 0 and the caster even closer to the drivers side. Although those both will reduce the compensation for road camber. How important that is to you depends on the road you drive on most frequently.

How about driving it like it is now on the open highway and in town and see how you like it?

I'd like to know if you feel it wonders on the highway? And what the car does after hitting small bumps and lump on the highway?

Yes, way to much caster in my opinion. I had about a 15 mile drive home after the alignment. It drove alright at speeds under 60, but at 60-70, I went over a small raised bump in the road and the car wanted to go to the right or wander like you stated. It was a little drifty feeling.. I guess thats the best way I can describe it. Like the front end was in the air and just wanted to go where ever. Once I slowed down, it felt like it was sticking to the road better.

We tried everything to get the numbers down with in range and sadly that was the best we could get. Some of the roads here are crowned pretty good for run off. Especially the 2 lane back roads. Camber would be good to have for that reason IMO.

I'm with AutoX What the op describes is MAX caster. Front out, rear in, moves the upper ball BACK. So if you move the rear out a tad, and the front in a tad, That should compensate camber. Moving the front in more than the rear out should tip the tire in, adding NEG camber. What numbers are you looking for?

The odd thing is when we moved them, the numbers would get worse. Caster would creep up, camber would go positive. Those numbers I posted above were the best we could get. It was 2.5 hours of frustration. Im going for the typical street performance #'s in the chart above.

On a side note, does anyone know what 1/8" is in Degrees? Im running a 15" tire. I came up with .475 rounded up to .5 for the toe in? Is that correct?

 

[67Dart273]

If you are explaining this right caster CANNOT get worse or by that I mean "higher numbers." Caster in this light means the amount the top ball joint tilts BACK giving you MORE positive caster. So if you move the ball forward, that will be "less."

 

[straightlinespeed]

If you are explaining this right caster CANNOT get worse or by that I mean "higher numbers." Caster in this light means the amount the top ball joint tilts BACK giving you MORE positive caster. So if you move the ball forward, that will be "less."

Sorry by worse I'm meant more positive caster. The highest number we saw and stopped at was 6.7. I can't explain why, I just saw what the machine was saying.

 

[67Dart273]

OK we need to start talking "numbers" instead of "worse" or better

I assume you want less positive caster? Moving the adjustments you spoke of in such a way as to move the upper ball forward makes less positive caster.

Which way you want camber? More NEG IE higher number tilting the tire IN means moving the ball "in" so BOTH adjustments need to go in to the center of the car. Since you have the rear one all the way in, is that right? Then moving the front adjuster IN will move the ball BOTH forward AND inward, giving you LESS caster and MORE NEG camber.

I've done this, it ain't my job. It can be VERY frustrating, because sometimes you get into a deal where you have to move both adjusters, and it's difficult to get them tight without moving them the wrong way. Plus, you have to jounce the suspension to re-check. I spent all of a Sat afternoon getting mine aligned. Of course I'm not as agile or strong as I used to be. And I don't have any "special bent tools" LOL to allow easy access.

 

[AJ/FormS]

I dont see a problem in the numbers,per se,either,other than the large cross-camber.

Caster numbers, larger than 3*, will only increase high-speed stability.Dont be afraid of them unless you have manual steering and spend a lot of time parking it.
Camber numbers nearing -.5*, are desirable for performance driving, but lesser numbers are ok, down to zero.But they need to be well-matched.
What I would do is sacrifice a little caster to even up the cambers.Then even up the casters to within .5*, and call it done.
I think the total toe is a bit high for a DD.Too much toe-in will cause a few annoying characteristics, which you already have experienced.
My FormulaS is set up with matched cambers at -.5*, and Casters of 3.5*.I dont recall the toe, but it wouldnt matter much because I get under there every once in a while and mess with it, whenever it starts to follow ruts or wander. Its the one adjustment you dont need a machine to tell you when IT thinks its right. That S steers very nice at those numbers.And the tires are actually wearing pretty good too. On the next set I might try a bit more neg. camber.

PS. Dirty turning plates will mess those numbers up.

 

[straightlinespeed]

OK we need to start talking "numbers" instead of "worse" or better

I assume you want less positive caster? Moving the adjustments you spoke of in such a way as to move the upper ball forward makes less positive caster.

Which way you want camber? More NEG IE higher number tilting the tire IN means moving the ball "in" so BOTH adjustments need to go in to the center of the car. Since you have the rear one all the way in, is that right? Then moving the front adjuster IN will move the ball BOTH forward AND inward, giving you LESS caster and MORE NEG camber.

I've done this, it ain't my job. It can be VERY frustrating, because sometimes you get into a deal where you have to move both adjusters, and it's difficult to get them tight without moving them the wrong way. Plus, you have to jounce the suspension to re-check. I spent all of a Sat afternoon getting mine aligned. Of course I'm not as agile or strong as I used to be. And I don't have any "special bent tools" LOL to allow easy access.

Yes less positive caster. Im shooting for that 2.5-3* ideally. Yes, the rear is in, all the way towards the engine. Im also shooting towards that -.5* camber.

Now that I read how you describe the ball joint moves, it makes sense. I can actually visualize it. We also jounced the car after ever adjustment just to settle it. Your absolutely correct about it being frustrating and sadly if the shop had more time I would had played with it myself. I think it was a newer guy that has not had a lot of experience with alignment. They weren't even suppose to be open today and only did so to work on my car, but sadly that was unsuccessful! Im hoping when I bring it back on Monday that I get to work with the alignment tech, the one that actually does them.

 

[straightlinespeed]

I dont see a problem in the numbers,per se,either,other than the large cross-camber.

Caster numbers, larger than 3*, will only increase high-speed stability.Dont be afraid of them unless you have manual steering and spend a lot of time parking it.
Camber numbers nearing -.5*, are desirable for performance driving, but lesser numbers are ok, down to zero.But they need to be well-matched.
What I would do is sacrifice a little caster to even up the cambers.Then even up the casters to within .5*, and call it done.
I think the total toe is a bit high for a DD.Too much toe-in will cause a few annoying characteristics, which you already have experienced.
My FormulaS is set up with matched cambers at -.5*, and Casters of 3.5*.I dont recall the toe, but it wouldnt matter much because I get under there every once in a while and mess with it, whenever it starts to follow ruts or wander. Its the one adjustment you dont need a machine to tell you when IT thinks its right. That S steers very nice at those numbers.And the tires are actually wearing pretty good too. On the next set I might try a bit more neg. camber.

PS. Dirty turning plates will mess those numbers up.

Yep the high speed was for sure a bit "light" to say. I do have manual steering and the car only sits parked during the winter and during the week. I try to take it out every weekend or every chance I get.

I agree the toe is a bit much right now. Im going to have them bring it down to .4-.5 thereabouts.

 

[RustyRatRod]

You need to change nothing but your alignment man. All he has to do is back off on the caster on both sides with the rear cam bolt. That will also add camber. All you need is around 3* caster. If he backs it off, camber will fall right in line.

 

[TrailBeast]

You need to change nothing but your alignment man. All he has to do is back off on the caster on both sides with the rear cam bolt. That will also add camber. All you need is around 3* caster. If he backs it off, camber will fall right in line.

X2 on the 3 degrees caster as that is plenty to do the job very well.