LA360 compression

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is it possible that someone put KB stroker pistons in your 360? if they have the deep eyebrow valve reliefs and are 100 down in the hole that would give you 200 valve clearance.???? that would make me suspicious. Back story is , many of these pistons were installed in crate engines with the recommended .26 top ring gap. over the years , it became well known that the iron headed strokers developed so much heat on the piston tops that the ring gap closed up. and created "muffin tops", as the ring would jam and break off the tops of pistons. All the engine builders round here have sets of 6 or 7 of these pistons as this was a fairly common failure.( i have 6 .40 over myself). if someone had a collection and built "econo " short blocks???
 
ok engine builders. Here is my dilemma. I bought a Mabbco rebuilt 360 short block from a member. Some upgraded stuff like KB high compression flat top pistons, moly rings, 272 muscle cam (272/272 duration 454-454 lift) Cloyes HD timing chain and sprokets. .30 over bore. Got a nice brand new set of Speedmaster aluminum heads with 68cc combustion chambers.
Here's the problem; my engine is at a builders for finishing. Went by there yesterday and he said this engine will be an absolute dog as it sits now. He doubts it will make 8:1 compression. Yes, the pistons are below deck a little, but he says I am losing a lot of quench with them. He suggests new pistons, rods, roller cam and new crank. That's an expensive prospect, considering what I already have in the motor. Also, this guy is a very well known builder with a great reputation and is well known in the racing circuit. His shop is incredible and he rebuilds engines for a living, and has many many great reviews. He does not even want to assemble the rest because he says he knows I will be disappointed.
What to do? Will this motor be a dog like he says? I don't know that I have the scratch to have him tear down this motor and upgrade it to a stroker.
TIA.
View attachment 1716094189

Unless there is something you aren’t saying, I say **** THAT ****.

Deck the block to zero deck and send it. You don’t have enough cam to run much more than 9:1 unless your tune up is on the mark.

I bet the pistons are .100 down the hole. Deck it off, fit the intake manifold and send it.

You don’t need all that other ****.
 
Unless there is something you aren’t saying, I say **** THAT ****.

Deck the block to zero deck and send it. You don’t have enough cam to run much more than 9:1 unless your tune up is on the mark.

I bet the pistons are .100 down the hole. Deck it off, fit the intake manifold and send it.

You don’t need all that other ****.
Well.....that'll WORK for sure for compression. What about piston to valve clearance with a true flat top at zero deck? You think he'd be ok?
 
Unless there is something you aren’t saying, I say **** THAT ****.

Deck the block to zero deck and send it. You don’t have enough cam to run much more than 9:1 unless your tune up is on the mark.

I bet the pistons are .100 down the hole. Deck it off, fit the intake manifold and send it.

You don’t need all that other ****.
@Rat Bastid Well, when I asked about decking the block and perhaps shaving the heads, he said that he would need to take off too much material and that there would be no way it would fit.
 
@Rat Bastid Well, when I asked about decking the block and perhaps shaving the heads, he said that he would need to take off too much material and that there would be no way it would fit.

I had to take over .100 off my decks to get the pistons .057 or whatever they are (I forget exactly how far out they are…it may be .057 or it may only be .054…it’s one or the other) so it can be done.

Either change pistons (and you’ll likely still need to mill the decks) or mill the decks.

You don’t need all that other **** for what you are doing.
 
ok engine builders. Here is my dilemma. I bought a Mabbco rebuilt 360 short block from a member. Some upgraded stuff like KB high compression flat top pistons, moly rings, 272 muscle cam (272/272 duration 454-454 lift) Cloyes HD timing chain and sprokets. .30 over bore. Got a nice brand new set of Speedmaster aluminum heads with 68cc combustion chambers.
Here's the problem; my engine is at a builders for finishing. Went by there yesterday and he said this engine will be an absolute dog as it sits now. He doubts it will make 8:1 compression. Yes, the pistons are below deck a little, but he says I am losing a lot of quench with them. He suggests new pistons, rods, roller cam and new crank. That's an expensive prospect, considering what I already have in the motor. Also, this guy is a very well known builder with a great reputation and is well known in the racing circuit. His shop is incredible and he rebuilds engines for a living, and has many many great reviews. He does not even want to assemble the rest because he says he knows I will be disappointed.
What to do? Will this motor be a dog like he says? I don't know that I have the scratch to have him tear down this motor and upgrade it to a stroker.
TIA.
View attachment 1716094189
I went back and read all of this in depth. Here's what I would do. With that small of a cam, I would build it AS IS. Give the ignition a good hot curve. Something on the order of "around" 20 degrees initial with 35 or 36 total all in by about 2700 RPM and it will scream for what it is and run on 87 octane ALL DAY LONG and never complain. I think you're overthinking things because of what all the forum heroes and magazine articles say. Build it.
 
if your gonna go all that trouble $$$ , I don't know what it cost but now the builder tearing your engine apart so rebuild then milling the decks .100 cost more than a .02 cleanup now you got to mill the intake or heads so the intake fits etc.... at that point just buy pistons.

If you can afford it rebuild with right pistons then do that, but if you can't and gonna make your car sit around for a year or so just put it together. A running and driving is better than a project that ends up never running again cause life happens.
 
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So its been determined the engine does NOT have KB107 pistons. Options are have him complete your engine as is and on budget. You then have a gutsy punchy responsive 360. Not 400hp but still a fun engine with perfectly round bores that seal and work well with a short duration cam. Other option is build it the way your builder wants and go into debt probably another 4 grand or more.
 
I mean my GOD it will have high performance aluminum heads with better ports and valves than stock. The cam you have in it, although small is bigger than stock. With a good intake and headers, it will run fine.
 
I mean my GOD it will have high performance aluminum heads with better ports and valves than stock. The cam you have in it, although small is bigger than stock. With a good intake and headers, it will run fine.
You would think adding 100+ hp peak over stock and power basically everywhere else it would be major improvement, but I guess not :)
 
His math is way off , at .100 in the hole and using a mg 1121g .028 gasket I get 8.877 to 1 , which is fine for your build , if he won't assemble it find some one who will or do it yourself , hell the hard part is done.
 
Unless there is something you aren’t saying, I say **** THAT ****.

Deck the block to zero deck and send it. You don’t have enough cam to run much more than 9:1 unless your tune up is on the mark.

I bet the pistons are .100 down the hole. Deck it off, fit the intake manifold and send it.

You don’t need all that other ****.
Their down more than .100.
What's the point of zero deck with a piston that doesn't have valve reliefs.
It's pointless IMO. :D
 
I don't get this,

Case #1,
Anyone who has ever swapped a set of small chamber heads out, for a set with large chambers , with no other changes, can tell you that the bottom end went away.
I did this to an early 9.2Scr 318, installing X-heads.
Case #2,
anyone that ever swapped a 340 cam into a 318, with no other changes can tell you that, the bottom end went away.
I did this to a few Smogger 318s
Case #3,
anyone who ever swapped a set of large chamber heads AND a 340 cam, onto a smogger 318 can tell you that, you guessed it, the bottom end went away.
I did this more than once, like an idiot.
Case #4
anyone who ever installed early 318 heads and a 318 cam, onto/into a 340 can tell you what a tire fryer that makes.
I'm talking about, "bottom end". Rpm from idle to about 3000rpm.

If the changes were made to a car with an automatic transmission, the bandaid for this lost bottom end is a higher stall, to get the engine OUT of that soft bottom end. I get that.
With a manual trans, to get the car moving, in a timely manner, the only option is rev the engine higher and/or slip the clutch longer.
In both cases, low series gears that force the engine to stay in the soft zone, only make accelerating up to speed worse.

Now; as the rpm comes up, and the engine begins to manufacture torque, there comes a point in the rpm band where the engine no longer cares about it's Dynamic Compression ratio, which is only a mathimatically derived number, and moves towards Effective Cylinder Pressure. If the engine has a working overlap cycle, this will happen sooner than if it has not.
Generally, this will happen above 3000 rpm, and somewhere below the torque peak, depending on how well the parts are matched.

In my 50 plus years of modifying street cars, I have built examples of every kind of thing not to do. And in the early years I have pulled some serious boners.
Twenty odd years ago, I made my first foray into high cylinder pressure. I can tell you that this works almost like turbocharging.
Which pumps air into the cylinders, which, among other things, increases the cylinder pressure. Except that, if you start with say 195 psi, on the street, you'll never need the turbo.
Whereas at 116 psi, that low pressure is a very serious handicap.
And the solution for this is so simple, just reduce the total chamber volume, and/or, increase the swept.
As rpm crosses the threshold of switching from Dynamic to Effective pressure, TIME becomes a problem. Time to get air into the cylinder. If the cam is too small, it begins to restrict the ingestion of air, and the power begins to fall off. But if the cam is too big, then, peak-ingestion occurs at a higher rpm than may be suitable for street use, requiring too severe band-aids and/or sacrifices, to live with.
But the goal is always to ingest more air, which plumps up the falling cylinder pressure.
Making POWER; is all about making pressure, which makes heat, which drives the production of torque, which translates to power.
When an engine gets old, it loses the ability to make pressure, and we say she is getting tired. But have you ever done a compression test on a tired engine? It may only be down 10 psi or LESS, than when it was fresh. Already, the driver knows it's days are numbered.
Have you ever taken a trip over the mountains, and experienced your engine getting more and more tired on the way up? Well, part of that is the loss of low-rpm cylinder pressure.
No cam in the world can get you out of that situation. No super-flowing heads, not even more gears. The only way past that, is to figure out how to ingest more air, to increase the cylinder pressure.

I know you and I @273 are often on different pages about things. So as a parting cookie; I can tell you that in 2004 my freshened 367 was making cylinder pressure of 185 or better. Some 125,000 miles or so later, she is down to 177 on the lowest one. I can tell you that she is, IMO, tired; that's a loss of only 8psi = 4.3%
Imagine going from 155 to 116, a loss of 25%, and that's with all new parts! How disappointing would that be!
OK sure, I get it, just install a 3200 stall or better and 3.73s and yur good to go. I get that, it works with an automatic. However, with a 3200 stall, whenever the roadspeed drops below about 26mph, the convertor will begin to slip, which will crush your fuel-economy around town, in the which, starts and stops and lowspeed driving is/are the norm.
And finally,
My alloy heads have supported up to 195psi on 87E10 with full timing.
OP already has alloy heads. Therefore, IMO, to not exploit that pressure potential, already having those alloy heads in his possession, if nothing else, is a crying shame. In a heartbeat I would figure out how to get the pressure up, to make this work.
If the KB107s really are .100 in the hole, then,
I see this as a simple piston swap to get the crowns up into the open chambers, and then taking the decks down to get the Q into the ballpark, then selling the current pistons to recoup whatever.

BTW
IMO, that engine builder is right to not want to slam this together as is.
Alloy heads, IMO need at the very least, a half a point of compression more than iron, just to break even in power production; and closer to a FULL point at part-throttle.
So then, with the pistons truly .100 down and the Scr predicted to be 8/1, that 8/1 is really gonna only feel like 7/1 around town.
But not only that, with the 272 cam in at 108, the Ica becomes 62*, and thus the actual pressure in the chamber I would expect to be even lower.
I know how disappointed I would be.

To OP,
if you did slap it together as is, you should expect to have to buy a higher than stock stall convertor, AND have to install some high 3.xx series gears ...... at added expense.
Whereas;
if you get the pressure up to even just 175psi , the stock 2200 stall will be fine as would any rear gear from 2.94 up; saving you money that you can put towards fixing this situation.
The 2.76s might require a couple of hundred more stall, but if they were already in the car, I would at least try them. I mean I ran 2.76s behind my hi-pressure 367, with a stinking manual trans. While doable, with a 3.09low, I can't say that I'd ever recommend it. Whereas the convertor will nearly double torque multiplication off the line.
I just do stuff because I have the junk, the tools, and at one time, the energy. And I have never been afraid to undo what has been done with poor results.
My advice for if you decide to leave the pistons down there;
is to leave the alloy heads in the box, and just install any old iron heads. At low-rpm and Part Throttle, iron heads will do everything that the alloys will, atta fraction of the cost. If you already have some closed chamber iron heads, so much the better.
 
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Case #1,
Anyone who has ever swapped a set of small chamber heads out, for a set with large chambers , with no other changes, can tell you that the bottom end went away.
I did this to an early 9.2Scr 318, installing X-heads.
Case #2,
anyone that ever swapped a 340 cam into a 318, with no other changes can tell you that, the bottom end went away.
I did this to a few Smogger 318s
Case #3,
anyone who ever swapped a set of large chamber heads AND a 340 cam, onto a smogger 318 can tell you that, you guessed it, the bottom end went away.
I did this more than once, like an idiot.
Case #4
anyone who ever installed early 318 heads and a 318 cam, onto/into a 340 can tell you what a tire fryer that makes.
I'm talking about, "bottom end". Rpm from idle to about 3000rpm.

If the changes were made to a car with an automatic transmission, the bandaid for this lost bottom end is a higher stall, to get the engine OUT of that soft bottom end. I get that.
With a manual trans, to get the car moving, in a timely manner, the only option is rev the engine higher and/or slip the clutch longer.
In both cases, low series gears that force the engine to stay in the soft zone, only make accelerating up to speed worse.

Now; as the rpm comes up, and the engine begins to manufacture torque, there comes a point in the rpm band where the engine no longer cares about it's Dynamic Compression ratio, which is only a mathimatically derived number, and moves towards Effective Cylinder Pressure. If the engine has a working overlap cycle, this will happen sooner than if it has not.
Generally, this will happen above 3000 rpm, and somewhere below the torque peak, depending on how well the parts are matched.

In my 50 plus years of modifying street cars, I have built examples of every kind of thing not to do. And in the early years I have pulled some serious boners.
Twenty odd years ago, I made my first foray into high cylinder pressure. I can tell you that this works almost like turbocharging.
Which pumps air into the cylinders, which, among other things, increases the cylinder pressure. Except that, if you start with say 195 psi, on the street, you'll never need the turbo.
Whereas at 116 psi, that low pressure is a very serious handicap.
And the solution for this is so simple, just reduce the total chamber volume, and/or, increase the swept.
As rpm crosses the threshold of switching from Dynamic to Effective pressure, TIME becomes a problem. Time to get air into the cylinder. If the cam is too small, it begins to restrict the ingestion of air, and the power begins to fall off. But if the cam is too big, then, peak-ingestion occurs at a higher rpm than may be suitable for street use, requiring too severe band-aids and/or sacrifices, to live with.
But the goal is always to ingest more air, which plumps up the falling cylinder pressure.
Making POWER; is all about making pressure, which makes heat, which drives the production of torque, which translates to power.
When an engine gets old, it loses the ability to make pressure, and we say she is getting tired. But have you ever done a compression test on a tired engine? It may only be down 10 psi or LESS, than when it was fresh. Already, the driver knows it's days are numbered.
Have you ever taken a trip over the mountains, and experienced your engine getting more and more tired on the way up? Well, part of that is the loss of low-rpm cylinder pressure.
No cam in the world can get you out of that situation. No super-flowing heads, not even more gears. The only way past that, is to figure out how to ingest more air, to increase the cylinder pressure.

I know you and I @273 are often on different pages about things. So as a parting cookie; I can tell you that in 2004 my freshened 367 was making cylinder pressure of 185 or better. Some 125,000 miles or so later, she is down to 177 on the lowest one. I can tell you that she is, IMO, tired; that's a loss of only 8psi = 4.3%
Imagine going from 155 to 116, a loss of 25%, and that's with all new parts! How disappointing would that be!
OK sure, I get it, just install a 3200 stall or better and 3.73s and yur good to go. I get that, it works with an automatic. However, with a 3200 stall, whenever the roadspeed drops below about 26mph, the convertor will begin to slip, which will crush your fuel-economy around town, in the which, starts and stops and lowspeed driving is/are the norm.
And finally,
My alloy heads have supported up to 195psi on 87E10 with full timing.
OP already has alloy heads. Therefore, IMO, to not exploit that pressure potential, already having those alloy heads in his possession, if nothing else, is a crying shame. In a heartbeat I would figure out how to get the pressure up, to make this work.
If the KB107s really are .100 in the hole, then,
I see this as a simple piston swap to get the crowns up into the open chambers, and then taking the decks down to get the Q into the ballpark, then selling the current pistons to recoup whatever.

BTW
IMO, that engine builder is right to not want to slam this together as is.
Alloy heads, IMO need at the very least, a half a point of compression more than iron, just to break even in power production; and closer to a FULL point at part-throttle.
So then, with the pistons truly .100 down and the Scr predicted to be 8/1, that 8/1 is really gonna only feel like 7/1 around town.
But not only that, with the 272 cam in at 108, the Ica becomes 62*, and thus the actual pressure in the chamber I would expect to be even lower.
I know how disappointed I would be.

To OP,
if you did slap it together as is, you should expect to have to buy a higher than stock stall convertor, AND have to install some high 3.xx series gears ...... at added expense.
Whereas;
if you get the pressure up to even just 175psi , the stock 2200 stall will be fine as would any rear gear from 2.94 up; saving you money that you can put towards fixing this situation.
The 2.76s might require a couple of hundred more stall, but if they were already in the car, I would at least try them. I mean I ran 2.76s behind my hi-pressure 367, with a stinking manual trans. While doable, with a 3.09low, I can't say that I'd ever recommend it. Whereas the convertor will nearly double torque multiplication off the line.
I just do stuff because I have the junk, the tools, and at one time, the energy. And I have never been afraid to undo what has been done with poor results.
My advice for if you decide to leave the pistons down there;
is to leave the alloy heads in the box, and just install any old iron heads. At low-rpm and Part Throttle, iron heads will do everything that the alloys will, atta fraction of the cost. If you already have some closed chamber iron heads, so much the better.
I generally agree with your auto philosophy especially with gearing etc... where we differ is you seem to have line of acceptable performance and that fine for you. But it feels like you think it's universal. Many have cammed low cr 273/318 with stock gears and converters and are satisfied with the results nevermind larger displacements. I've put a 340/360 top ends on 318's my cousin and uncle has also, and did nothing to boost cr and found the results satisfactory.
Is it ideal no, should it be done depends on the situation with the OP's their skills knowledge desires whims money time etc.. . The question is it an acceptable to them and their situation will they be happy with the results/compromises. Only they can answer that each build is a series of compromise only the OP can/has to figure out.

In an Ideal world I generally would agree with you a 100% but everything a series of compromises some are self imposed.
 
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The OP already has a short block built. My opinion is it's a waste of money to change it. I'm done. This is stupid.
 
Don't worry about how much comp you can run with good alloy heads as I run trick flows with 12 to 1 comp and 205 cranking comp in a manual car and it does not ping on premium fuel! It has a 238/242 610 lift on a 112 L/sep cam .
 
I said I was done, but I have to come back and add this. If this was bought from a member here and it was sold under the pretense that it had KB107 pistons in it, the seller should be ashamed of himself.
 
I would tell shop do a piston swap to get compression up. If you have no budget for piston swap then run a .028 head gasket and when you get more funds later you can upgrade it then.

I would not deck the block with existing pistons cause then intake has to be machined by the time you pay for that could have probably bought the pistons.

Sure a stroker and big roller cam would be great but not sure why shop insist on going that route if its outside your budget when a basic piston swap would make it a great engine?

Since seller lied about pistons makes you wonder what else they lied about?
 
Unless there is something you aren’t saying, I say **** THAT ****.

Deck the block to zero deck and send it. You don’t have enough cam to run much more than 9:1 unless your tune up is on the mark.

I bet the pistons are .100 down the hole. Deck it off, fit the intake manifold and send it.

You don’t need all that other ****.

Yeah, tell the engine builder **** THAT ****....
 
I’m kinda on the engine builders side here. I wouldn’t put that thing together if a customer came to me with the OPs goals. I would advise him to go back to the seller he bought it from and ask for his money back. The engine builder is giving him good advice FOR HIS GOAL of 400-450 hp. The only result of screwing that thing together the way it is and making 275-300 hp is an unhappy customer.
 
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