Lifters not bleeding down

[fshd4it]

Hey all. Let me preface this by saying I know very little about the internals of this 360, it came with the car when I bought it. There was a bit of noise from the left side when I fired it up the other day, so I dug in to see if the rockers were adjusted correctly (Crane 1.5 golds). I found all the lifters were pumped up, with the cups pushed tight up against the retaining clips. Checked the other side, same story. This was several hours after it was running, which was just for 5 or 10 min, so not long enough to get it up to temp. I pulled one lifter, and couldn't get it to compress by hand, but since it wouldn't compress from valve spring pressure I guess that's kind of a no-brainer. I'm using 20w/50 GTX (there were a couple notes that came with the car, and supposedly this was the oil they were running. Thinking it may have larger bearing clearances, I kept using it). Other than maybe just cold thick oil, any thoughts before I take one apart to see what's going on here?

 

[Murray]

Others may have more input on this but all I am seeing from your description is a hydraulic lifter that is working normally. All clearances are taken up by the lifter- normal. You remove a lifter and can't compress it- normal. A hydraulic lifter contains a check valve that prevents this, but will self-adjust when running. A small amount of lifter "clatter" when first started can be normal, especially with heavier oils.

 

[TrailBeast]

Others may have more input on this but all I am seeing from your description is a hydraulic lifter that is working normally. All clearances are taken up by the lifter- normal. You remove a lifter and can't compress it- normal. A hydraulic lifter contains a check valve that prevents this, but will self-adjust when running. A small amount of lifter "clatter" when first started can be normal, especially with heavier oils.

You pretty much said it all already.

 

[fshd4it]

Others may have more input on this but all I am seeing from your description is a hydraulic lifter that is working normally. All clearances are taken up by the lifter- normal. You remove a lifter and can't compress it- normal. A hydraulic lifter contains a check valve that prevents this, but will self-adjust when running. A small amount of lifter "clatter" when first started can be normal, especially with heavier oils.

Ah, okay. The check valve was something I was unaware of, that makes sense. I'm a little concerned about setting pre-load on these (I'm thinking .040") won't they hold the valves open a bit, seeing as they're pressed up all the way? Before I pulled the arms/shafts it felt like they were at zero preload.

 

[Dubob]

Maybe thinking a little out of the box. If they are all pumped up, and not knowing much about the internals, I’d be checking to make sure the cam is a hydraulic and not solid lifter set up. If it’s solid and you try to tighten the pre load you’ll open up a whole other can of worms. But as stated the initial clatter isn’t abnormal with hydraulic at first start up and should quiet down.

 

[TrailBeast]

Ah, okay. The check valve was something I was unaware of, that makes sense. I'm a little concerned about setting pre-load on these (I'm thinking .040") won't they hold the valves open a bit, seeing as they're pressed up all the way? Before I pulled the arms/shafts it felt like they were at zero preload.

First off, please know that I mean no disrespect here.
Not knowing any more than you do about it right now, I wouldn't suggest you do anything with it at all if it quieted down after startup.

Usually, hydraulic lifters don't get adjusted on a Mopar motor unless someone changed it to solid lifters and adjustable rockers.
If you have adjusters on your rockers you very likely have solid lifters that don't take a preload, but a clearance between the rocker and valve tip.
Your comment about them all being tight when you checked them after running tells me you have hydraulic lifters that self adjust.

Again, a little clatter on startup is pretty normal as long as it goes away when oil pressure comes up.

 

[furrystump]

and I don’t believe there is a visible difference between a solid and a hyd lifter. If you put one of each next to each other one may be taller, but to look at a lifter and say thats a hyd could prove difficult. There is a step that the pushrod seat sits on Inside a solid lifter. If you pull the lock ring and the seat is sitting on the step and up against the lock ring its a solid lifter. Keep in mind the clearance range of hyd is pretty small.

 

[Murray]

Yes, we are only wanting to help. Are we questioning whether we have hydraulic lifters? Since you are there already, lets pull a lifter and disassemble it. A solid lifter is a outer shell with a metal cap held in place with a snap ring. A hydraulic lifter is a metal shell with a metal cap held in place by a snap ring- but inside is a piston with a check valve. This piston "floats"inside being effected by oil pressure and valve train free play. It seems by your description that you have hydraulics as by it's nature it removes all slack from the valve train without opening the valve. If you have "solid" lifters then all your valves are too tight and should have some clearance that you can feel. If you have hydraulics, you are right, these are adjusted to place that piston in the center of it's travel.

 

[fshd4it]

TB- No offense taken at all. I should have been more clear about the noise, it's more of a "tack tack" while it's running, which follows RPM. I went around the engine with a stethescope, everything sounds okay. Could be it's just a leaky header, but the relatively new gasket looks fine...switching to Remflexes when it goes back together though. 3" exhaust and flowmasters that dump in front of the rearend make it kinda noisy, and my hearing's not what it used to be.

 

[fshd4it]

The help is greatly appreciated, believe me. I'm learning more about lifters than I "thought I knew". The one on the left is what came out, the one on the right is what I always assumed a solid looked like. The lifter from the engine has a .095" bleed hole in the waistband. I'll pop it apart and see what I have here. Lobe lift on the cam is at least .321", maybe the previous owner thought they were getting into territory where they needed stronger rockers?

 

[Inertia]

and I don’t believe there is a visible difference between a solid and a hyd lifter. If you put one of each next to each other one may be taller, but to look at a lifter and say thats a hyd could prove difficult. There is a step that the pushrod seat sits on Inside a solid lifter. If you pull the lock ring and the seat is sitting on the step and up against the lock ring its a solid lifter. Keep in mind the clearance range of hyd is pretty small.

The solid and hydraulic lifters body's are generally the same height, however where the pushrod seats is deeper on a solid lifter, thus needing shorter pushrod when using stock adjustables on a hydraulic cam.
Hydraulic preload is quite wide, Crane states 0.020 - 0.060 of adjustment.
http://cranecams.com.au/pdfs/pp1110c.pdf

 

[furrystump]

The oil feed hole could also throw you off, my solid lifters have a feed hole, they are EDM lifters with the very small hole in the face were pressurized oil flows out to the cam lobe.

 

[fshd4it]

Well, looks like I've got hydraulics. The oil I poured out wasn't that clean, but it didn't have any nasties in it. I should have mentioned this as well, the car hasn't been driven in quite a while. Like 2 1/2 years at least. I try to run it every couple of months, but me keeping to any schedule is somewhat laughable.

 

[Murray]

Congratulations you have hydraulics. The previous posts are correct, depending on manufacturer, externally they can look the same- yours are more obvious.

 

[nm9stheham]

Now that is known... that 20W50 oil is going to make it tough to push down the plungers. It acts like a straight 20W oil at the cool end of the test range....but that is with the oil at 104 degrees F. When cooled to 50-70 F, regular petroleum based engine oils will thicken up quite a bit. The good thing is that you have good hydraulic lifters; they don't leak much!

It sounds like some pre-load work is needed as suggested. If you put in 1/4 turn on the adjuster (should be about .010-.012" preload), I bet it will push the plungers down once the engine turns over a few times. I would not aggressively adjust the preload in one large step, with that heavy oil, as you don't know the piston to valve clearances; sneak it up a bit at a time. Don't rev it 'til things settle down.

I would actually change out to a 10W40 or 10W30 first and THEN try the adjustments so the lifters can leak off better. Then watch the oil pressure at idle & hot to see if it is much less than the 20W50 when idling & hot. If so, then you do have something like loose bearing clearances. (Or loose lifter bores, or a worn oil pump, etc.)

 

[fshd4it]

At least on the bright side, with all of them (save for the one I took apart) being pressed up tight, finding zero lash will be easy. I'm thinking .040" preload when all said and done? Not having to pull and clean them all will be nice, I've got 587 heads on this motor and there's only 2 spots where they'll come out. I know I should keep track, but I don't remember what the oil pressure is on this thing. One more reason to start keeping logs.

 

[TrailBeast]

At least on the bright side, with all of them (save for the one I took apart) being pressed up tight, finding zero lash will be easy. I'm thinking .040" preload when all said and done? Not having to pull and clean them all will be nice, I've got 587 heads on this motor and there's only 2 spots where they'll come out. I know I should keep track, but I don't remember what the oil pressure is on this thing. One more reason to start keeping logs.

A little late now, but I would have driven for awhile before I tore into a lifter noise after the car sat for some time.
I would have to say that most of the time a lifter makes a tapping after sitting it clears up on it's own.

 

[pishta]

lifters should bleed down in a matter of tens of seconds, some even faster. They will bleed down through the very small gap between plunger and body as there are no seals in there. I would not expect a lifter nor trust a hydraulic lifter that would hang a valve open on motor shutdown unless the plunger was bottomed in the lifter mechanically. The oil pressure supplied to the lifter is no where near the force needed to lift a valve against a valve spring so your not going to float a valve with more oil pressure. Hydraulic lifters fill to the height of the pushrod under no load. With .040 preload, they should fill without ever touching their retainer rings. Every time the cam pushed the lifter up, the check mechanism blocks the oil inlet and creates a solid lifter for about 1/10 of a second and that is at idle. With the static level reached, the lifter no longer takes in oil, but just keeps what it has in there with no time for it to bleed out between valve events, effectively creating a solid lifter. When you shut down and the lifter is off cam base circle, it will start to bleed oil out and the plunger will relax creating a soft lifter when you test them. These will pop right back up when there is oil pressure applied. If they dont quiet down, the check mechanism may be blocked open like a hung up inlet valve in a carb.

 

[fshd4it]

A little late now, but I would have driven for awhile before I tore into a lifter noise after the car sat for some time.
I would have to say that most of the time a lifter makes a tapping after sitting it clears up on it's own.

I agree, on both points. I'm probably a bit neurotic, but the noise made me nervous. 6 months or so ago, the motor gave a noticable "thwack" when it was idling, and has continued every time since but to a lesser degree. I started checking anything that made sense, kind of ended up at the rocker gear (and this lifter issue) the other day.

 

[fshd4it]

lifters should bleed down in a matter of tens of seconds, some even faster. They will bleed down through the very small gap between plunger and body as there are no seals in there. I would not expect a lifter nor trust a hydraulic lifter that would hang a valve open on motor shutdown unless the plunger was bottomed in the lifter mechanically. The oil pressure supplied to the lifter is no where near the force needed to lift a valve against a valve spring so your not going to float a valve with more oil pressure. Hydraulic lifters fill to the height of the pushrod under no load. With .040 preload, they should fill without ever touching their retainer rings. Every time the cam pushed the lifter up, the check mechanism blocks the oil inlet and creates a solid lifter for about 1/10 of a second and that is at idle. With the static level reached, the lifter no longer takes in oil, but just keeps what it has in there with no time for it to bleed out between valve events, effectively creating a solid lifter. When you shut down and the lifter is off cam base circle, it will start to bleed oil out and the plunger will relax creating a soft lifter when you test them. These will pop right back up when there is oil pressure applied. If they dont quiet down, the check mechanism may be blocked open like a hung up inlet valve in a carb.

That's what I've always thought, but with all 16 lifters pumped up tight, I had to wonder. When I put the rockers and shafts back on, I'll be able to see what the original preload is. I'm tempted to think there wasn't any.

 

[nm9stheham]

lifters should bleed down in a matter of tens of seconds, some even faster. They will bleed down through the very small gap between plunger and body as there are no seals in there. I would not expect a lifter nor trust a hydraulic lifter that would hang a valve open on motor shutdown unless the plunger was bottomed in the lifter mechanically. The oil pressure supplied to the lifter is no where near the force needed to lift a valve against a valve spring so your not going to float a valve with more oil pressure. Hydraulic lifters fill to the height of the pushrod under no load. With .040 preload, they should fill without ever touching their retainer rings. Every time the cam pushed the lifter up, the check mechanism blocks the oil inlet and creates a solid lifter for about 1/10 of a second and that is at idle. With the static level reached, the lifter no longer takes in oil, but just keeps what it has in there with no time for it to bleed out between valve events, effectively creating a solid lifter. When you shut down and the lifter is off cam base circle, it will start to bleed oil out and the plunger will relax creating a soft lifter when you test them. These will pop right back up when there is oil pressure applied. If they dont quiet down, the check mechanism may be blocked open like a hung up inlet valve in a carb.

Hmmmmm.....I don't find that in my experience. When you stop the engine, most/all them will stay hard under hand pressure if good, not go soft with no oil pressure. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by 'soft'. With the recent crop, the ones that go soft when shut off are the suspects when a noisy lifter shows up.

I've found that oil viscosity has a lot to do with how easily they leak down under spring pressure go when no oil pressure is present. For example, synthetics, which keep a thin viscosity down the normal 'overnight' cool temps, will leak off pretty quickly.

 

[pishta]

your only going to find a soft one if you push on the rocker and there is room in the plunger to compress. The check valve will 'check' with more speed than you can apply. Some lifters will hold more than others. IIRC The hydro keepers in an OHV Neon will hold pressure for 5 minutes with a test lever. The viscosity would alter a bleed down time with synthetics probably bleeding down the fastest.

I read a pfd from Johnson that explained the leakdown and gave specs for a few of their lines as they hand pick the best for their top line. I cant find it now mayybe its on my PC at home.

 

[fshd4it]

So I got back to the motor yesterday, and as normal, found more issues. The lifters on the pass. side had all bled off, but the driver's side ( except for #2 intake, which I pulled and took apart) were all still pressed up tight. The exhaust valves are .050" above the intakes, but at least (when measured with a straightedge) the tops of each set of valves are nice and even.
Preload was too much by a country mile... Adjusters had 2+ threads showing, the pushrods are 7.225" long, and when I set them to zero, the adjuster pretty much disappeared into the rocker (see pic). Even a touch on the screws to apply preload (on the left bank) started to open the valves. Guess I'm pulling some lifters to get them to release? My checking pushrod showed pretty close to 7.05" on the intakes and 7.00" on the exhausts (1 1/2 threads showing, and I checked 2 sets on each bank). So the cups had to be waaaay down there, I'm hoping they didn't bottom out and do any damage. Funny how easily they spun before I took it apart, even holding the valves open. Obvously I'm ordering new pushrods, am I correct in getting 2 different lengths to compensate for the .050" long exhaust valves?

 

[fshd4it]

Difference in pushrod lenth. Holy Schnikes!!
Edit: All measurements were taken to the bottom of the cup.

 

[Murray]

Sounds to me that you need a valve job to adjust the valve height. They should all be the same.