Little bit of a rant about Mopar heads...

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LXguy

LXguy

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Alright, check this out:

My car has a 5.9 magnum in it with Iron Ram heads. Why does it have Iron Ram heads? Because both of the heads on this 86K mile motor were cracked between the seats. Solution, just plan on buying aftermarket heads if you're running a Magnum engine.

OK, so then I've got two stock eliminator projects I've been developing. They may end up just being motors I drag to the dyno as a proof of concept kind of thing. Working on a 74 360 and a 71 318 combination.

So, I've been trying to get a pair of 308 heads, and a pair of 302 heads. I've been combing the scrapyards for engines, poring through Craigslist, etc.

I have 12 308 heads. ELEVEN of them are cracked between the seats, most of them on every cylinder. The highlight here is that one motor only had about 80K on it, and one of the heads was clearly a reman unit. It was cracked also.

I merely have 6 of the 302 heads, but have not found a single good one yet. Just bought a pair out of Colorado off of Ebay, but the guy refunded my money because when checking them before shipment found that they were cracked too!

It would be a real kick in the nads to spend Stock money on a pair of heads just to have them crack. its seriously making me rethink this foolish idea.

I think Ma Mopar gets a big frigging FAIL on the induction hardening already. I can't believe they actually got all the way to the current hemi engine before putting in hardened valve seats LIKE EVERYONE ELSE has been doing for years.

For the record, on the Ford side I have bought and sold at least 20 pairs of the GT-40P heads off of the late model Explorers. Not ONE of them was cracked. Not a single one!

The only useful bit of info here is that I would recommend nobody ever pay shipping on a pair of these Mopar heads that haven't been thoroughly magnafluxed.
 
LXguy said:
Alright, check this out:

My car has a 5.9 magnum in it with Iron Ram heads. Why does it have Iron Ram heads? Because both of the heads on this 86K mile motor were cracked between the seats. Solution, just plan on buying aftermarket heads if you're running a Magnum engine.

OK, so then I've got two stock eliminator projects I've been developing. They may end up just being motors I drag to the dyno as a proof of concept kind of thing. Working on a 74 360 and a 71 318 combination.

So, I've been trying to get a pair of 308 heads, and a pair of 302 heads. I've been combing the scrapyards for engines, poring through Craigslist, etc.

I have 12 308 heads. ELEVEN of them are cracked between the seats, most of them on every cylinder. The highlight here is that one motor only had about 80K on it, and one of the heads was clearly a reman unit. It was cracked also.

I merely have 6 of the 302 heads, but have not found a single good one yet. Just bought a pair out of Colorado off of Ebay, but the guy refunded my money because when checking them before shipment found that they were cracked too!

It would be a real kick in the nads to spend Stock money on a pair of heads just to have them crack. its seriously making me rethink this foolish idea.

I think Ma Mopar gets a big frigging FAIL on the induction hardening already. I can't believe they actually got all the way to the current hemi engine before putting in hardened valve seats LIKE EVERYONE ELSE has been doing for years.

For the record, on the Ford side I have bought and sold at least 20 pairs of the GT-40P heads off of the late model Explorers. Not ONE of them was cracked. Not a single one!

The only useful bit of info here is that I would recommend nobody ever pay shipping on a pair of these Mopar heads that haven't been thoroughly magnafluxed.
Click to expand...

Have you tried the 915 J head, i've had good luck with those, I hear ya on the head cracking issues, i beleive it, I'm sure it was all in how thin that area was, more or less to save weight, I get thrashed on alot when i speak Mopar, how junky they are/were, In my opinion, they all have there issues, Ford/GM & Mopar, i've honestly allways had bad luck with Fords, don't know why, but i did, except my last 2, 1 was an 88 Cougar, The other a SVO Mustang 4cyl. turbo.

What i would do at this point Steve, if your wanting a good head for the LA, don't keep shelling out coin for cracked ones, just get the LA RHS Heads like these.

http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/...cw==&level1=Q3lsaW5kZXIgSGVhZHM=&partid=25739
 
'74 stock eliminator can only use 596, 051,974, 587,308,576 and 302 castings, so no 915s allowed, and of course the 318 can't use them.

I WISH they'd let me use the RHS heads. LOL no dice on that.

SVO Mustang. LOL. That thing was POS, but I don't think Mopar has any room to cast stones about 1980s turbo 4 bangers.
 
I have a total virgin set of 576s that I am not too proud of, not rusty, have been inside since dissasembling the motor, and have already ported on my nice 308s, so that probably won't work for stock class.

You can have the 576s for $100 if you want to pick them up. They were off a 78 360, and the valve covers go with them.
 
I've said this for years but no one listened to me.
Everyone said I was exaggerating and all the 100's they've pulled weren't cracked...

Even if they don't get into water, it's still a crack.

The mag heads and 308 heads dont flow more than the old 2.02 J, the exhaust port looks better and can give a lil better lower lift numbers, but after that they all have the potential limit of around 200-210 cfm exh flow.

I have 974 heads with the bosses below the ex port 'untapped' 1974 heads.
I also have a set of 302's both check good, I always scrape certain areas of them in the yard to look for the visible cracks before even taking them home.

I still have not seen or met anyone who can get more than around 255cfm out of a ported factory magnum head, I dont even bother myself with them....meanwhile I get 280's with Jheads....
Hughes turns them away..direct qoute ''we wont port factory magnum heads anymore, we will sell you iron rams or rhs due to the problems with poor casting, even after they check out good..they have cracked down the road where porting made them even thinner in crucial areas''
 
Why get stuck on the 308s? The other heads are just as capable, especially when you cant touch the ports... Find a set of anything that shows the least amount of casting mess, and use them. Especially with Stock Eliminator, the camshaft and valve manufacturer are as critical as the valve job. It is definately not just a case of bolting together a set of stock parts and going racing. At least not if you want to win.
 
Sure, sure. Engine builder expressed a strong preference for the 308s. Might have to make due with something else though.
 
Stock eliminator, thats where instead of having a 340/360 advertised as this or that...you get to actually make it 'spot on' the this and that, torque plate use , a real 10.5 340, a real 1.5 ratio as advertised, spot on geometry that actually gives the lift advertised instead of only 85 percent of it or??

You are stuck with a 3 angle vj, or are you anymore??
 
The tolerances are very specific, but you don't want to butt up too close against them. You have to leave a little wiggle room for the quality of the measuring equipment used on race day.

You definitely want to make sure of the rocker ratio, but only for your own benefit. They check lift at the lifter.

My understanding is than any "number" valve job is allowed.
 
12 angle then...all the way up the ssr.LOL

can shorten the guide in the bowl area and just replicate the flat cut and fib the roughness where it has to blend to the far side bowl.
 
I got a pair of 302 heads that I don't need. one is back from the machine shop assembled, and ready to bolt on. no porting, just basic machine work for a driver. The other one has been hot tanked and visually inspected, no visual cracks, not Magnafluxed. I live in Covington, In, just across the line from Danville.
 
I don't believe they allow a throat cut, but I'm not positive. They do not allow back cutting the valve. Seat angle can be your choice. Seat margine is not an issue. Port volume is measured and you want to be smaller than the spec. Guys have ported the heads before, then acid treated them to replicate the cast finish, then milled the intake and exh flange faces to lose the volume they added... I dont know if they measure for that now. Pistons and pins must be stock replacement design and weight. But, generally you don't buy stock pistons. You have them made from a high quality manufacturer and have extras made so they are exactly the same weight. Rings must be stock size and width. Gaps are whatever. Cam must be of same type and lift as factory. Lifters of smae type and weight of factory. There are tricks for everything. Factory intakes coated inside and out, factory carbs that are minimally tweaked... IMO, the best engine for a stock eliminator small block effort would be the '71 340, followed by the 360 4bbl of the mid 70s Volare.
 
I have found the 1.88 heads to have more port volume than the 2.02 heads, I believe the tulip valve is to blame...the 2.02 has a huge tulip 'it's a heavy valve too' lol plus they dont do a real good throat cut, so it's basically a bigger seat and thats it + a now bigger tuliped valve eating up the bowl area.

But when I cc'd I found 155cc for 2.02 J's vs 160cc for 1.88 J's ...interesting, ya know...I think it was a 72 demon that last had the g stock record...before it ran out
the numbers are like 1.88=200'ish cfm vs 2.02=220'ish cfm

I need to do my own testing on the 1.88 version since I have only personal played with the 2.02 heads and came to this finding, but back when I had to pay people to flow them those are the 1.88 numbers that were recorded -technically 189 @ 25'' depression converted to 28''=200
 
The whole point of the 318 combo is to try to find something really fun to do with my Dart without putting a bar in it. I have a feeling with the new tune in the Magnum I'm going to be running at that ET. To get down to the weights in the 318 Dart's native class (O/SA) I'd probably have to do other cutting that was even worse though (if I read the rules right, minimum is 2945 with driver - I weigh 135, so the car would have to be 2810 to run the minimum).

The record in that class is currently 12.18, which might be a tall order for a 2 bbl 318, no matter what tricks you throw at it. Might not even do it with the blue bottle! haha. Obviously you don't have to be able to run the record to have fun, but you can't spend real money on a car and not be a threat for the 11s!

I thought maybe I'd build something simple up to haul to the engine dyno and see if I could get within 15-20% of what I thought would be 12.00 horsepower. 290-ish with a good curve would make me optimistic. If I could do that, I'd get more serious.

I'd use a hydraulic roller block, so as a backup strategy I could put on some RHS heads, Air Gap, and a hyd. roller cam and take some people by surprise. LOL

The '74 360 has been backburnered because I sold my Challenger, and have decided against buying another car in the near future. And Im sick of spending real money on 360s.

The upside is that I'm getting in good shape hauling this stuff home, dissassembling it, going to the machine shop and back and soon loading it in the truck again to take to the dump.

Oldwirebender: I might be interested in the heads, depending on what you want for them, but to be honest I'm not real into dragging something else home that hasn't been fluxed or doesn't have a warranty!~ LOL
 
I think in order to use the later block you have to run GT... don't you? Otherwise it has to be a factory available engine package... Meaning the flat tappet block, hydraulic flat tappet cam, etc. The tricks with SE are all over the place. teh car should be about 100lbs lighter than minimum with you in it, and the ballast can be made movable to account for traction issues with different track preps. You should be able to run 1 secind under the index regardless of weather. I'm thinking the index is closer to 13.2 if the record's 12.18 but it's been many years since I looked at a rule book. The transmission needs to be a prepped 904 because there are tricks to be had there. The record setters use C4 internals IIRC. A 727 won't cut it, and I'd talk to Lenny at Ultimate about the convertor because they are also special. One of my mentors years ago had multiple Stock Eliminator records in D/S, E/S, F/S, and M/S with a Ford. The M/S was a 351 Cleveland with a 2bbl. The cmashaft development alone was crazy. IIRC he averaged 5 cams a year sorting packages out, all custom ground. If you want to have fun, have fun with the understanding that you will more than likely not win many races or money. It gets expensive if you can't win at least rounds and contingency consistently and these guys are the most unassuming, most competitive, most tenacious, and least talkative racers you'll meet. If they are giving you "a trick", don't do it because it will slow you down or make you inconsistent...lol. I'm sure I never would have been able to learn anything from him had he believed even for a brief moment I might run a Ford or personally know any other SE racers.
 
LXguy said:
...So, I've been trying to get a pair of 308 heads, and a pair of 302 heads. I've been combing the scrapyards for engines, poring through Craigslist, etc.

I have 12 308 heads. ELEVEN of them are cracked between the seats, most of them on every cylinder. The highlight here is that one motor only had about 80K on it, and one of the heads was clearly a reman unit. It was cracked also.

I merely have 6 of the 302 heads, but have not found a single good one yet. Just bought a pair out of Colorado off of Ebay, but the guy refunded my money because when checking them before shipment found that they were cracked too!

It would be a real kick in the nads to spend Stock money on a pair of heads just to have them crack. its seriously making me rethink this foolish idea.

I think Ma Mopar gets a big frigging FAIL on the induction hardening already. I can't believe they actually got all the way to the current hemi engine before putting in hardened valve seats LIKE EVERYONE ELSE has been doing for years.

...The only useful bit of info here is that I would recommend nobody ever pay shipping on a pair of these Mopar heads that haven't been thoroughly magnafluxed.
Click to expand...

I've only had one pair of 308's, from a member here, off a low milage wrecked truck. Paid for them, shipped them home, paid my machine shop to clean and magneflux them, and scrapped both of them. Been running X, J, and even old 273 heads, HARD, for decades. No problems yet. Typically, you throw one out of two 360 heads away since 73, when they started induction hardening the exhaust seats. Run too lean? Run too hot? Exhaust flapper valve stuck shut? I don't know. All I know is that I don't start putting dime one in a set of heads untill they pass magneflux. I do have 2 sets of virgin 302's that passed and one set that I had to get a replacement for, it will need exhaust seats and bigger intakes to be good. Not much use on a 273. I've also scrapped a set of 302's. I think I'll just get hardened exhaust seats for my old heads and be done for the next 40 years. I feel better now, too. Just for the record, Chevys are even worse.
 
moper said:
I think in order to use the later block you have to run GT... don't you?
Click to expand...

My understanding is that block is OK, but I do have to run a flat tappet camshaft.

I've dealt with this sort of thing before running NMRA and NMCA. Thing is I don't even know if the engine will be installed in a car in SE trim. The plan was to build it up without the crazy stupid parts (well, I'll have a real expensive 2 bbl carb), dyno it, and see if I think it has potential from there. If not, then I'll dump in the hydraulic roller cam, 4bbl intake, RHS heads, and turn it into an expensive bracket shortblock - LOL.

Yeah, getting the car down to class weight will be a challenge, much less a weight where I can have some ballast to move around. The index is low 13s.

Of course, I can't even get a set of heads, so I'm a long long way from worrying about any of that.

If anyone needs some good hydraulic roller 360 shortblocks, send them my way! hahahaha
 
Generally, the car you have is not the car to use for SE. Unless you're lucky and have one that is a good, soft combo. You have to go through the classification guide. I know you're on Class Racer, so you probably know this stuff.
Two barrels can be hard to dial. They're usualy not competitve in classes where four barrels run. That's why you see them in T,U.
One way to build a car that will compete is to pick a car that fits in a class that has no "killer' cars racing in your area. Things like that change, that's racing. I was partner on a D/SA car in the mid 90's that was only 2 tenths under. Not many fast cars in D in our area then. Worked for us.
What are the other SE racers using 318's doing for good heads?
 
LXguy said:
Alright, check this out:

My car has a 5.9 magnum in it with Iron Ram heads. Why does it have Iron Ram heads? Because both of the heads on this 86K mile motor were cracked between the seats. Solution, just plan on buying aftermarket heads if you're running a Magnum engine.

OK, so then I've got two stock eliminator projects I've been developing. They may end up just being motors I drag to the dyno as a proof of concept kind of thing. Working on a 74 360 and a 71 318 combination.

So, I've been trying to get a pair of 308 heads, and a pair of 302 heads. I've been combing the scrapyards for engines, poring through Craigslist, etc.

I have 12 308 heads. ELEVEN of them are cracked between the seats, most of them on every cylinder. The highlight here is that one motor only had about 80K on it, and one of the heads was clearly a reman unit. It was cracked also.

I merely have 6 of the 302 heads, but have not found a single good one yet. Just bought a pair out of Colorado off of Ebay, but the guy refunded my money because when checking them before shipment found that they were cracked too!

It would be a real kick in the nads to spend Stock money on a pair of heads just to have them crack. its seriously making me rethink this foolish idea.

I think Ma Mopar gets a big frigging FAIL on the induction hardening already. I can't believe they actually got all the way to the current hemi engine before putting in hardened valve seats LIKE EVERYONE ELSE has been doing for years.

For the record, on the Ford side I have bought and sold at least 20 pairs of the GT-40P heads off of the late model Explorers. Not ONE of them was cracked. Not a single one!

The only useful bit of info here is that I would recommend nobody ever pay shipping on a pair of these Mopar heads that haven't been thoroughly magnafluxed.
Click to expand...


Dude, you need to rub the brass monkey or kiss the squirrel tail, or maybe pick a hair from your head and make a wish..................

That's bad luck.
 
Well, that's kind of hard to get a read on. They're not exactly talkative about their combos, you know? And they're definitely not going to show me casting numbers....

To be honest I haven't seen but a couple, but I haven't done the legwork that I probably should.

Thanks for the tip on the 2 bbl. That's what Deano said also.
 
1wild&crazyguy said:
I have found the 1.88 heads to have more port volume than the 2.02 heads, I believe the tulip valve is to blame...the 2.02 has a huge tulip 'it's a heavy valve too' lol plus they dont do a real good throat cut, so it's basically a bigger seat and thats it + a now bigger tuliped valve eating up the bowl area.

But when I cc'd I found 155cc for 2.02 J's vs 160cc for 1.88 J's ...interesting, ya know...I think it was a 72 demon that last had the g stock record...before it ran out
the numbers are like 1.88=200'ish cfm vs 2.02=220'ish cfm

I need to do my own testing on the 1.88 version since I have only personal played with the 2.02 heads and came to this finding, but back when I had to pay people to flow them those are the 1.88 numbers that were recorded -technically 189 @ 25'' depression converted to 28''=200
Click to expand...

I'm familiar with the J heads, but mostly the 2.02 version. Would you say the J heads with 1.88's are the same as standard 360 (596)casting head with 1.88's??
 
If any of you guys actually believe that Stocker heads are not ported I have a really nice bridge for sale. Some nice land in the Everglades too. lol

I'm not going to say what goes on here on the forum but let's just suffice to say that any Stocker running the record or close to it is NOT using an as cast port.
 
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