Looking for 360 advice on a budget.

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jackel440

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I want to say first that this forum has some of the best tech on it I have seen.So I thought I would stop in and see if I could get some help with my project.I have searched the forum and there is alot of different builds so thats why I am looking for answers specific to my needs.
I have a 72 charger which is original 318 2v car with an 904 tranny.
I would like to replace the 318 nwith 230k on the ticker with a 360 I have.
The engine is a 360 removed from a 77' van.
I have already purchased an new oil pan and pick up for the swap.I also have the B&M flex plate so I can use my 904 tranny.
Now to the engine.I pulled this out like 6 yrs ago from the van and it has been sitting in my shop with the heads off.I checked the bore ,and it is factory 4" bore with no ridge at the top of the cylinders.So I believe it was a low milage engine.(It was a church bus)
The pistons are a factory dish and are tight in the bore.
I looked at the heads and the casting number was 348915#.I didn't measure the valve size ,but I can do that tomorrow.I noticed the exhaust valve springs had some kind of cup over the spring under the retainer.Can anyone tell me what this for?
Ok here is what I would like to do with this engine.Let me know if it is feasible
1.pull all apart,clean evrything,rehone the cylinders,
2.Install new bearings and rings.
3.I want to run the Hughes Engines 360 Whiplash cam
4.regrind valve seats(I have a valve and seat grinder machine),(new springs for cam)I also thought I would try doing a litlle port work clean up.
Now I have concerns about compression ratio.I believe that it had about 8.5:1 when it was new.I had tossed the idea of trying to scratch up the cash for pistons if new flat tops would help me.
My plan for the install is to install headers,already have a 2 1/4" dual exhaust with flowmasters.I would like to pick up some kind of aluminum dual plane intake.If I can't I do have a cast iron 4v intake.
I plan to pull my 8 1/4" rear with high way gears and replace it with an 8 3/4" with 3.55.
I will be rebuilding my tranny and I plan to use a higher stall convertor.
I use my car for cruising and some daily driving.Probably never see the track.Just run light to light:snakeman:
I know I am forgeting some details,but if anyone can give me any tips on my situation I would be thrilled.
later
Aaron
 
valve size with be 1.88 intake.. 1.60 exhaust...

you have what is called rotators on the exhaust valves...they help the valve rotate due to the lack of lead in the gas...

you will should replace them with standard sprint retainers..
 
Arron, welcome aboard. This (below) is a generaly asked question and hats off for including alot of material others forget. I'm going to answer the questions in bold type after each the quote.

I noticed the exhaust valve springs had some kind of cup over the spring under the retainer.Can anyone tell me what this for?
Click to expand...

Sounds like rotors. With the new springs, you'll need new retainers and locks (Keepers) for the new retainers. Throw those other parts away.
You can get them from MoPar or other sources.


Ok here is what I would like to do with this engine.Let me know if it is feasible
1.pull all apart,clean evrything,rehone the cylinders,
Click to expand...

Yes, though, you may not need to hone the cylinders if everything looks good. But, it can't hurt ethier. I did just this to my 318 in my Duster. Took it apart, gave it new cam bearings and I was off and running.

2.Install new bearings and rings.
Click to expand...

Ops, kind of answered this above. But yes, the new bearings are a good idea if the old ones do not show excessive wear. Look at the crank as well. Make sure theres no groves. I'd prefur a re-grinding of the crank for a sure fit and excellent surfaces for long life.

3.I want to run the Hughes Engines 360 Whiplash cam
Click to expand...

Cam choice is ...sooooo fickle. Much like style of socks one likes to wear....or not.


4.regrind valve seats(I have a valve and seat grinder machine),(new springs for cam)I also thought I would try doing a litlle port work clean up
Click to expand...

Easy does it on the port work, more is not allways merrier, but it should be good for the cam and task at hand.


Now I have concerns about compression ratio.I believe that it had about 8.5:1 when it was new.I had tossed the idea of trying to scratch up the cash for pistons if new flat tops would help me.
Click to expand...

Mill the cylinder heads a little bit. Remember, the more you mill, the harder it is to attach the intake due to the ever growing bolt hole alignment. The more you mill, the worse it gets. You can compisate alot, but only so much.

Theres formulas available to let you know how much to mill to reduce the amount of cc in the head and etc.... to get to your goal. It's also found in the MoPar Engines book. Good to have around. (No wheres mine damn it!)


My plan for the install is to install headers,already have a 2 1/4" dual exhaust with flowmasters.I would like to pick up some kind of aluminum dual plane intake.If I can't I do have a cast iron 4v intake.
I plan to pull my 8 1/4" rear with high way gears and replace it with an 8 3/4" with 3.55.
Click to expand...

You could go 2-1/2 exhaust pipe size if you wanted to.
The 4bbl intake isn't a bad part at all. A RPM would be best, but will cost. An amount to save for later.
The 8-1/4 is plenty strong for this build. Save hundreds and just get a sure grip and gears.

I will be rebuilding my tranny and I plan to use a higher stall convertor.
I use my car for cruising and some daily driving.Probably never see the track.Just run light to light
I know I am forgeting some details,but if anyone can give me any tips on my situation I would be thrilled.
later
Aaron
Click to expand...

So far, it sounds like you have a good working idea.

For a stall converter, contact a PRO or a guy that has been there done that and understands trannys and converters and such things.

What carb are you going to run?
 
Rumblefish,
Thanks for the welcome.Yes I have tried to lay out my plan.I will toss the rotaters on the exhaust.then pick up new retainers and locks.I thought that was what they were.
The cylinders will need rehoned as they have got some flash rust on them from sitting in the shop.I tried to keep the walls coated with oil,but they still have some on them.So I planned to rehone it and then reasemble it.

I have been looking at his cam from hughes ,and I feel this is exactly what I have been looking for.So that is what I am planning to use.unless I find it won't work.

So is it possible to raise the compression enough by milling the heads to allow me to keep the stock pistons?I know by looking with the eye the pistons are down in the hole a little.Plus they are dished.
got to go to work catch ya guys later8)
 
I think if you are going to re-use the pistons then simply accept the low compression and move on. You can spend a lot of cash and creeate isues to overcome by trying to do too much with the wrong parts. So keep it simple and you'll be much happier. As far as honing... I have used green scotchbrite wrapped around the stones of a rigid hone to get rid of minor surface rust and grime and to give the moly rings something to seat to. You will make more power by doing that then by making the bores larger and rougher with a ball hone.
 
Pay attention to head gasket thickness. The standard Felpro head gaskets are .054". The Felpro Performance head gaskets are .039" and thinner gaskets can be had too.
 
I would agree with most of what's been posted above. Here's my thoughts-

Keep the 8.25" rear. Even with a well built 360 it'll be more than strong enough, just change the gears and get a posi, especially if you're not planning on racing it.

Use the money saved on the rear and buy some new pistons. This will cure your compression problem, and you won't have the hassle of milling the heads and trying to make your intake fit, or dealing with having milled heads at some point on a future rebuild. If new pistons aren't an option, you can also swap in smaller head gaskets. SCE makes gaskets all the way down to .021" compressed, that alone should bump your compression by 3 or 4 tenths of a point, which is assuming the factory gaskets are .039" compressed. They're probably thicker than that, so you might gain as much as a half a point just with that gasket.

As far as the cam goes, it seems like it would be ok with headers and a 4 barrel. You should go with a higher stall converter when you rebuild the transmission. Personally I like the Lunati Voodoo cams, but that's just me. By the specs it looks like the Hughes cam is pretty close to a Lunati 60403, which is a good street cam.

Good luck! :-D
 
Wow,Thanks for all the honest advice everyone.
Ok money is tight ,but I believe i can swing pistons if I would be better off getting a set.I was looking at some KB hyperutectic flat tops which I believe summit had for a little over $200.
The rearend is not a big deal as far as that goes.I already have all the parts collected for that part of the project.I know I need to swap them as this is a heavy car and the lower gear will help with my green light take offs.:-D
As of right now my 318 and taller tires on the back I can just keep up with a neon.(and that is just a plain jane one at that):angry7:
My tranny died a year ago.I didn't even drive my car last year.I have rebuilt them before so I will do that also.
Like someone said I will definatly be buying the thinner head gaskets.
I guess I need to figure out the exact cc of my heads and see what the cc of my pistons are now and see how low the compression is now.
I will try and redneck it.I will go get a syringe from the barn and do that.Horses don't need any shots right now anyways.:-D
I am going to the swap meet in Mopar Swap Meet and Trade show this saturday.I hope to pick up a few parts while there.Hopefully at maybe a good price.
I am going to have to pull my engine down the rest of the way and check my cylinders.That way I know if I decide on pistons what size i need and wether or not if I would have to bore my block.
Well I guess I need to get out to the shop and do some organising and get this engine tore down.Be back on later8)
 
Ok I typed a big old paragraph and it disappeared so this one is short and sweet.:bootysha:

On the rearend I already have a couple 8 3/4" rearends that I plan to use to put in the car.I know I need to get a lower gear than what I have as this car is heavy and needs all the help it can get.

I also have no problem trying to pick up a set of pistons if I would be better off.I need to get the engine tore down and mic the cylinders to make sure I don't need to get it bored.
I agree with what was said on the head gaskets.I plan to get the thinner compression distance ones.
I will try and do a redneck cc job on the heads with a syringe to see exactly what I have. catch you guys later when I get back in from the shop.8)
 
IF you get new pistons and I beileve your looking at the KB107's, then you should be careful on what head gasket you get. Thin one are not needed or wanted since the piston could very well sit at zero deck. Then you would have a .21 clearance, which isn't enuff.

I have a zero deck KB107 360 and use the .039 Fel-Pro gaskets without issue.
 
Rumble, with open chanber heads he's fine. I think that's what he was talking about doing unless that changed...
 
Error on the side of saftey. Even if he has a open chambered head, I don't know if they have been milled. Thus, the reply above.

(Key to better best perfect answers; Knowledge!)
 
rumblefish360 said:
IF you get new pistons and I beileve your looking at the KB107's, then you should be careful on what head gasket you get. Thin one are not needed or wanted since the piston could very well sit at zero deck. Then you would have a .21 clearance, which isn't enuff.

I have a zero deck KB107 360 and use the .039 Fel-Pro gaskets without issue.
Click to expand...

Yes your right I am looking at those pistons.I pulled a piston and did some micing the cylinder bore.My block looks to be within spec.So I think I will be looking for a set of pistons.

The engine is stock.the rod bearings had a 10-77 date code on them.So I am pretty positive the heads have not been shaved.

So I think a set of piston are in order then reassembly.
I do plan to use the heads i have.That way we are agreed on that.
 
Getting those KB pistons is the best thing you could do.

They are likely to be lighter so it would be good to get it balanced.
 
I don't know what the charge is to have everything balanced at my local speed shop.I will have to look into it.Is the balancing just done on the rods and pistons or is the crank also modified at the same time?
If cost is an issue will the engine survive with out having it done?Will the balancing be worth some more hp?
thanks guys catch ya later
 
Having the engine balanced allows for all the HP to be released in a smoother running engine instead of not getting all that's there on a engine that shakes and vibrating.
The cost here to balance is $300 and requires the crank, rods, pistons and rings as well as crank and rod bearings, harmonic balancer and depending on drivetrain set up or machinest, flexplate or flywheel.

The expense is truly worth it and not doing so is poor engine building practice that will result in less power than what could have been available,

The crank should not be modified less cuting it for good earing fit and of course, the actual balance work should the crank need weight added or subtracted.

The engine will survive without it, but with it, it will actully last a long time the way you would expect it to. Not balanceing it, will shorten it's life. Consider not balancing the assemble a very bad birth defect. Terminal like defect. It will just be a mater of time.
 
Depending on your definition of "budget" it has been my experience that you cannot build a reliable motor on a budget. My local engine builder is getting close to finishing a '77 360 I'm putting in my '69 Dart. I originally wanted to do a budget build but I was talked into getting deeper into the motor, not because the engine builder was trying to make more money, it was because what he told me made sense concerning reliability. He would have done anything I asked but reliability was an issue. My basic "rod and main bearing job, freshened, 360 motor" turned into a full steam cleaned, magnufluxxed, shot peened, aligned honed, zero decked, over-bored, internally balanced, floating pin KB 107 piston, adjustable lifter, bowl blended, gasket matched, 10:1 high performance 360! And the overall difference in price from what I intended to do and what was actually done was not that much. The next step up from what we did to that motor was to stroke it and add aftermarket heads. Now I will have a motor that, although it won't be stroked, I can add aftermarket heads to later and the bottom end will support it. It will be time for the add-ons soon and I am going to ask the experts here on this site for their advice on intake, carb, ignition, etc. I got lucky with this builder though because one of the employees is a hardcore Mopar guy who owns a '68 Dart and a Duster. I asked him what he thought about me putting a Ford 9" rear into my Dart and I swear I thought he was going to reach over the counter and slap me! I too will be using an 8-3/4 rear end with 3:55 gears and a 727 trans. I don't have the cam specs but we are looking at about 2200 stall based on how I am going to drive the car (mostly street, very little freeway). But this is just my experience about building on a budget. I don't know how much of the work you can do yourself, I couldn't do any! Having knowledge, experience and skill is priceless...Anyway good luck with your build and keep us informed of the progress. You nailed it in your thread, the knowledge of the guys on this site is awesome! I take what I have learned from this site down to the engine builder and the guy thinks I know what I'm talking about. If he only knew...
Forrest
 
oldkimmer said:
..............Offset grind the crank, cheapest way 2 more cubes and compressoin....................kim........
Click to expand...

Yes,but he wont get much more compression. Piston might come up .020 by doing that.Much more offset grinding and he will need chevy size rods on the big end. And then it's not cheap anymore.

I agree that if he is already grinding the crank,offsetting it is a good idea.

Thin head gaskets would help as well,maybe bring the head down another .005 or so.Might luck out and get close to 8.5:1.All depends how deep the pistons are in the bore.
 
A question for those that said to replace the exhaust rotators with std retainers and locks. I did that on my 360, and they are MUCH further down than the intake retainers. I was going to have different valves installed as I compared them to std retainer valves and the lock grooves were much further down on the valve. Am I safe running them this way? I didn't want to drop a valve. Just something to think about...
 
metallidart said:
A question for those that said to replace the exhaust rotators with std retainers and locks. I did that on my 360, and they are MUCH further down than the intake retainers. I was going to have different valves installed as I compared them to std retainer valves and the lock grooves were much further down on the valve. Am I safe running them this way? I didn't want to drop a valve. Just something to think about...
Click to expand...
I haven't pulled a head apart yet,but I was wondering if there was going to be difference with a non rotater valve and a rotater valve stem.I had considered that I might have to purchase a set of exhaust valves if this is the case.
Anyone have any info on this?
 
Forrest,
I agree with what you have said and done.I am skilled trades,and I know what you mean about doing a job correctly.
I also can understand how a budget build can snowball.I am trying to not let that happen.I really have a budget I need to stick to for this to happen before summer is over.
I agree on balancing the rotating assembly.I might have to bite the bullet and have it done.It would be money well spent.
 
jackel440 said:
Forrest,
I agree with what you have said and done.I am skilled trades,and I know what you mean about doing a job correctly.
I also can understand how a budget build can snowball.I am trying to not let that happen.I really have a budget I need to stick to for this to happen before summer is over.
I agree on balancing the rotating assembly.I might have to bite the bullet and have it done.It would be money well spent.
Click to expand...

YES!!!! Mopars really benefit from a balance job.Factory balance is pretty sloppy.
 
jackel440 said:
Forrest,
I agree with what you have said and done.I am skilled trades,and I know what you mean about doing a job correctly.
I also can understand how a budget build can snowball.I am trying to not let that happen.I really have a budget I need to stick to for this to happen before summer is over.
I agree on balancing the rotating assembly.I might have to bite the bullet and have it done.It would be money well spent.
Click to expand...

Has anyone suggested magnum heads?
Providing they have smaller comb. chambers; that would raise your comp. ratio enough for your application imo. No balancing or pistons.
Changing pistons, bore, balance on n on is the route I am going. Just thought smaller comb. chamber heads would be a nice route to higher compression. Others out there can tell more specifics than I. Food for thought.
 
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