Looking for opinions on which engine to go with.

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Fast01

Fast01

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Ok, I'm new to the Mopar scene and recently acquired a '68 Barracuda with a 451 stroker, 727, 8 3/4. I took the car on trade as did the guy I traded with, so the history or tecnical specs of the engine are unknown or even if it's a 451 or not. I did verify that it is a 400 block and the balancer is stamped with "use only with 440 cast crank", so I'm assuming that it is in fact a stroker. I don't like being in the dark, so I want to rebuild the engine, but I can't decide what I want to do. Here are some things I'm thinking about. Any opinions, suggestions or nasty remarks would be welcome!

1. Basic rebuild of what I have (BOOO).

2. Source out a 500" rotating assembly, some good heads and make it a screamer.

3. Swap in a late model 6.1L Hemi.

4. Swap in the nasty LS1 I have in the garage and piss everyone off! (insert nasty comment here)

Whatever I do will most likely be fuel injected as I've got two systems in the garage right now, an Edelbrock and an old Airsensors unit. I'll also be starting on a Megasquirt unit to keep me occupied while I recover from surgery I'm going in for next Wednesday. Again, any input would be welcome, good or bad!
 
While the 500 incher sounds great, to feed it properly would really require a good cylinder head, something the factory or Edelbrock RPM's are not up to.

The 451 has a great ratio inside it and will spin up very fast since it's rotating assembley is lighter than a small blocks. Think of it as a better 440 with some extra cubes.

I'd go with a rebuild.

Another surgery! YIKES!
 
rumblefish360 said:
While the 500 incher sounds great, to feed it properly would really require a good cylinder head, something the factory or Edelbrock RPM's are not up to.

The 451 has a great ratio inside it and will spin up very fast since it's rotating assembley is lighter than a small blocks. Think of it as a better 440 with some extra cubes.

I'd go with a rebuild.

Another surgery! YIKES!
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If I'm gonna do a 500, I'm gonna do it right. I'm thinkin' Indy 440-EZ's or some heads from Hughes and a 440 Source rotating assembly. The bobweight on the 500 kit is actually less than that of the 451. 2075 as opposed to 2150, but of course the longer stroke puts piston speed way up there. I'd use what I have, but I'm a little worried if it's a cast crank and that's what it appears to be. Anyway, just looking for ideas right now. It'll be a while before I can actually do anything.
 
I'll certainly be driving it on the street, but I'd like a low 10 second, high 9 second car. It's already caged with mini tubs, ladder bars and coil overs. The motor that's in it is on a 125 shot as well, but like I said before, I believe the internals are cast and I don't know the history or specs on the engine. I haven't even been able to drive it to see how it performs as I can't drive due to my injuries. I should probably drive it first to see how I like it, but I've got the entire winter to roll around on my shop stool in the garage and build something stupid. Of course, I told myself (and my wife) that I was going to leave everything alone and just drive it when I'm able to, but we all know how that goes!
 
Fast01 said:
Source out a 500" rotating assembly, some good heads and make it a screamer.
Click to expand...

Really?!? It's got a 451 stroker with a 125 shot on it now, and you're wanting to "make it a screamer"?!?

Dude, what are you used to driving?!? That should be a 10 sec car as it sits.
 
rumblefish360 said:
Contact my bud; http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/member.php?u=5886
About his old 500 inch, 9.40 Dart.

And this thread; http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=82431
Click to expand...

BrianT said:
Really?!? It's got a 451 stroker with a 125 shot on it now, and you're wanting to "make it a screamer"?!?

Dude, what are you used to driving?!? That should be a 10 sec car as it sits.
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Thanks for the links Rumblefish360 and BrianT, my old Monte Carlo ran 9.85 @ 132 on spray and 10.80's on motor. The Camaro I swapped for the Barracuda ran 12.11 @ 113 and the guy that I got the car from said he ran it a few times with and without spray and it went 8.30 in the 1/8th w/o spray and mid 7's on it. That doesn't sound like a 10 second car to me. It does have a stock converter which certainly doesn't help, but even with a good converter it'll probably only pick up 1/2 a second or so. My Camaro ran faster in the 1/8th than the 'Cuda did off the juice. Again, I don't know what's actually inside and it seems to have at least a cast crank, so I want to at least beef things up a bit. While I'm at it I figure why not add a few inches?
 
Well, options 1, 2, and 3 sound good to me. All I have to say is, if you go with option 4 you best not post it on here and tell anybody.
A LS1 in a hemi-scooped '68 Barracuda?! I'm not gonna mention what you deserve for even thinking that!
No matter what option you decide on, that '68 deserves to be all Mopar.
 
ocdart said:
Well, options 1, 2, and 3 sound good to me. All I have to say is, if you go with option 4 you best not post it on here and tell anybody.
A LS1 in a hemi-scooped '68 Barracuda?! I'm not gonna mention what you deserve for even thinking that!
No matter what option you decide on, that '68 deserves to be all Mopar.
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Lol! I'm well aware of the sacrilegious nature of option 4 and the backlash I would get if it happened. I totally agree with staying faithful to the brand, no matter what it is. Although I did think about it, I doubt I would've actually done it. It's kinda sick, but I actually listed it as an option just to see the response I would get. Sadly, I do still have some GM in my blood, and in my garage in the form of a complete LS1 engine, a 350 block, 2 sets of heads, countless engine parts and a '71 Camaro with a 388" stroker. I must say I'm actually a bit disappointed at the lack of controversy! Anyway, it'll remain all Mopar. It's a matter of how much Mopar will reside under the hood.
 
Fast01 said:
the guy that I got the car from said he ran it a few times with and without spray and it went 8.30 in the 1/8th w/o spray and mid 7's on it. That doesn't sound like a 10 second car to me.
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Maybe traction was a problem? lol I would try to find out what the problem is that's keeping the engine you have from being a strong runner. Is compression down? Secondaries not opening? Distributor/timing off?

Or you could just pull that crappy 451 out and sell it on here, and build whatever engine your heart and wallet will allow.
 
Why would someone do the mods to a cast crank 440 to fit a 400 block. It cost like 300-500 unless they had the equipment available to do the work.

If you are going to throw much at it. I'd check the crank to see if it's a cast, if cast, do something else, 500 would be decent. Make sure you have the heads to feed it.
 
abodyjoe, I'm definately going to take it apart before I do anything.

BrianT, I agree it should be running much better. I haven't checked anything on the car because the hood is a lift off and I can't get it off alone or really perform any of the tests due to my current condition. Hopefully, after my surgery next week, I'll be able to do a little more in a few months to see what's up. Traction shouldn't have been a problem. It's running 28/11.5-15 MT slicks.

crackedback, I don't understand either, but I'm thinking the crank is cast. Whoever built the car seemed to do a lot of odd things like that. The 8 3/4" rear has a 489 case, has been shortened, has ladder, bars, coil overs and wheelie bars, but uses the stock axles that have been shortened with no safety tabs on the rod ends. The roll cage was all custom bent and nice and tight to the interior, but they used 1 1/2" tubing which is legal for nothing. 1 5/8" tubing was used where it carries through the firewall which is legal. It just seem the whole car was built oddly. Hopefully I'll be able to get it apart in a few months and see exacly what's in there.

Here's some evidence that it is a 451 with a cast crank. I'm not at all familiar with Mopars, but here's a couple of pics that I think tell the story. If anyone knows any different, please chime in.

IMG_0508.jpg


IMG_0509.jpg
 
IS it possible to use a 440 external balance balancer and balance it on a 400 since that is also a external balanced engine? I guess ytou could have it done if he didn't have the parts to do it and got around it in this manor.
 
rumblefish360 said:
IS it possible to use a 440 external balance balancer and balance it on a 400 since that is also a external balanced engine? I guess ytou could have it done if he didn't have the parts to do it and got around it in this manor.
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Just to be clear, you're asking if it could still be a 400 crank running a 440 external balance balancer? Anything's possible I guess, but like I said I'm not familiar with Mopars (yet) and don't know which engines are internally or externally balanced or which parts will interchange. From what I understand the journals on the 440 are larger than that of the 400 and need to be turned down to fit the mains, silmilar to a 400 Chevy crank going into a 350 block. If I understand correctly, the crank snout on a 400 would be too small to run a 440 balancer as is the case with the Chevy stroker, requiring the balancer (and flexplate or flywheel) to be used from the parent motor. Sorry for the Chevy references, but that's what I know best.....for now.
 
No worries on the Chevy ref. I used to build those a way back. It's been 20 years, but I remember some tech from them.

If I understand correctly, the crank snout on a 400 would be too small to run a 440 balancer
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Innnnn correct. You can swap them. Now that's IIRC. Allready told ya I'm not a big block guy, But I think I'm correct.

Anybody else?
 
You're probably right. I had a little brain fart. The journal size is not the size of the crank snout. I wasn't thinking. The difference between them is the addition of counterweights for external balancing. They will interchange....on a SB Chevy anyway. My God, I'm losing it! I've got to get better and start playing again!
 
LOL, when ever your ready, I'm only up the block....
 
Fast01 said:
Just to be clear, you're asking if it could still be a 400 crank running a 440 external balance balancer? Anything's possible I guess, but like I said I'm not familiar with Mopars (yet) and don't know which engines are internally or externally balanced or which parts will interchange. From what I understand the journals on the 440 are larger than that of the 400 and need to be turned down to fit the mains, silmilar to a 400 Chevy crank going into a 350 block. If I understand correctly, the crank snout on a 400 would be too small to run a 440 balancer as is the case with the Chevy stroker, requiring the balancer (and flexplate or flywheel) to be used from the parent motor. Sorry for the Chevy references, but that's what I know best.....for now.
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Yes the journals on the 440 are larger than the 383 and 400 so most turn them down to fit the 400 saddles. I'm going to be opening up the main saddles on my 400 to the 440 spec. since it needs an align bore anyway. I can't imagine anyone using that dampener on any crank that wasn't cast iron and most if not all 400's were cast and early to late 70's 440 cranks were also mostly cast.
I would have to agree with some of the commentd and also suggest pulling that puppy apart cuss done correctly the 451 is a torquee high revver.

Terry
 
rumblefish360 said:
While the 500 incher sounds great, to feed it properly would really require a good cylinder head, something the factory or Edelbrock RPM's are not up to.
Click to expand...

I will disagree to a point. My old boss built a 512 with edelbrocks and a mild roller cam. I took it to the dyno and have driven the Charger I installed it in.

It made 538hp and 625ft lbs. That sucker plants you into the drivers seat. And gramma could take it to the store.
 
The bottom line is, I can't and won't make a descision on which way to go until what I've got gets torn down and inspected. As far as the head debate goes, I've pretty much made up my mind on some Indy heads regardless of which direction I go. I thank everyone for their input and if anyone has anything else to add, suggest or recommend, please do so!
 
Looking at the rest of the car... I'm not sure why you traded for it...lol. It looks like a guy that loves cruise nights built it for them. Not a performance guy who wants to go quick safely. I would be cautious of anything in that car... What are the brakes and suspension like on the front? As far as the engine... I would ditch the B wedge idea and build a 505" RB for it. Much easier to find headers and intakes that fit the A Body. Sell the unknown quantity 451. The trans needs to get updated, and it will need axles at minimum. Truthfully IMO a street weight A body needs a Dana 60 at the horsepower levels you're talking so it might be easier to just order a new one and have the rod ends replaced with good ones and the straps put on when they re-do the cage.
 
moper said:
Looking at the rest of the car... I'm not sure why you traded for it...lol. It looks like a guy that loves cruise nights built it for them. Not a performance guy who wants to go quick safely. I would be cautious of anything in that car... What are the brakes and suspension like on the front? As far as the engine... I would ditch the B wedge idea and build a 505" RB for it. Much easier to find headers and intakes that fit the A Body. Sell the unknown quantity 451. The trans needs to get updated, and it will need axles at minimum. Truthfully IMO a street weight A body needs a Dana 60 at the horsepower levels you're talking so it might be easier to just order a new one and have the rod ends replaced with good ones and the straps put on when they re-do the cage.
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Sorry for my delayed response, but I'm only out of the hospital a week today and I haven't really felt up to getting out a reply. Anyway, I traded basically for the "cool factor". I was bored with the Z-28 and as the mods got bigger, inspection was becoming more and more of a problem and the car had it's share of problems as well. Things like non functioning ABS, rear gears that were screaming, it was hit REAL hard in the rear a bunch of years back and the body work was starting to bubble. I figured I'd rather put time and money into a cooler car that is emission exempt and probably a lot more fun!

I thought about doing a big RB, but if the block that I have is useable I'll probably stick with it using a new rotating assembly and heads. There's a local shop that I've been using for years that I'll have re-do the cage and go through the rear suspension. The front suspension has manual disk brakes and steering with some Comp. Eng. 90/10's. I'm sure it could use a rebuild, so I'm considering a new tubular K-member and coil-over conversion. As far as the rear goes, depending on where the budget is, a Dana 60 is certainly a possibility, but I may get some axles and brace the 8 3/4" for the time being. I appreciate all of the responses I've gotten so far. If anyone can add anything, please do. I'm sure I'll be posting up a lot more once I'm able to start working on it.
 
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