Ok, have been reading and finally needed a new starter. 1974 Scamp with built 225 and running Clifford headers. Got a starter at O'Reily Auto Parts for a 1991 Dodge D150 with 318. Reason being the older "mini" starter wiring lugs are EXACTLY the same, newer models have a clip for trigger wire. Hardest part of the job was getting the OEM starter out around the headers. Results, perfect!! Spins like crazy compared to the old starter. This is a simple and straight forward 15 minute upgrade. Don't hesitate to do it.
Mini Starters on a Slant Six
- Thread starter s scamp
- Start date
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BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
It is almost unfair. Swapping the factory slant starter is already so simple, compared to SB or BB, now a mini w/ half the size & weight makes it trivial. So light that you could carry one in the trunk as a spare. For my SB, I installed a mini from a Dodge truck, using its cable w/ connectors. It was slightly long from my Dart, even with the + post at the front, so would definitely have to shorten it for a slant. You can also find them on most Jeep Grand Cherokee's of the 1990's, and people say the V-6 Magnum starter interchanges, which you find often in 90's RAM vans.
slantsixdan
=..=
Nope, that's a totally different starter with a totally different bolt pattern, not interchangeable.
There is no mystery about what fits and what doesn't, so no need to rely on what people are rumored to have been heard to think about saying. '88-'03 3.9 V6, 5.2 and 5.9 V8 in RWD/4WD Dodge trucks and vans. The units after about '93 are even smaller than the '88-'92 units.
Be sure and get a genuine starter with a Chrysler, Denso, or Nippondenso nameplate on it. The Chinese copycats flooding the market (advertised at parts stores as "100% new!") are junk. A used genuine starter from a wrecking yard is preferable to a new fake/Chinese or "remanufactured" starter.
If you need to rejigger the connections to get adequate clearance for your battery cables or other parts, that info is here.
And if that starter doesn't get you enough clearance with your headers (or Hyper-Pak, or DDDs), then you can get even more clearance with slightly more work by using the '05-'07 Dodge Ram 5.7 V8/Manual-trans starter described and pictured (with video, even) here and here.
BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
Thanks for correcting. The 90's Jeep GC uses the Magnum V-8 engine, but the starter is different than Dodge trucks. Indeed, I was at PicNPull a month ago (for other things) and glanced under a GC in case it had a shiny new starter and thought "that don't look right", so pondered "4.0L?", but no it was a Magnum 5.9L engine. Sorry, I had already forgot.
My "people say" referred mostly to SlantSixDan. We might hold off posting to await an authoritative response from SSD first. He did confirm that a V-6 Magnum works too. Few car guys think to look in the van/motorhome section. I have found aluminum V-8 intakes, MSD wires and coils, and other goodies in the Dodge Vans, plus I found that Dodge motorhomes used some 1960's connectors thru the late 1980's.
I'm happy with mine. I thought I'd miss the classic starter sound but it's ok.
Got it at a Mopar Swap meet. It's not the super-mini so it must be an earlier version and the wires practically fell on.
Got it at a Mopar Swap meet. It's not the super-mini so it must be an earlier version and the wires practically fell on.
exoJL
Well-Known Member
Only for those who can't switch out a regular (15lb) starter in 5 minutes like those of us who have dealt with that crappy rebuilt ones. I would HESITATE to do this upgrade only if your racing.
David White
New Member
Hi
I have just joined the forum and have been searching around a bit for some of the problems that I have been having. My car is a Canadian 1964 Valiant convertible with a slant six. It looks like I have already made at least one mistake-I bought a set of Clifford headers. The fit is definitely not bolt on. The rear header had a starter conflict so I got one of the mini starters that were mentioned-1991 D150 318. Unfortunately I don't think it will work. The pinion goes in a quarter inch shy of the flywheel compared to the stock starter so it does not engage to turn the engine. Plus I can't return it now because I had to ream out the lower hole to fit the stud. Is there another I can try?
Others on the forum mention they are using Clifford headers. Besides the rear header problem I have just mentioned the front header is just crazy. How have others made it fit? I have been back and forth a bit with a Larry at Clifford and so far his only advice is to start with loosening the bolts.
That is no help because before bolts come near to being involved there is the much bigger problem of the header and the steering box wanting to occupy the same space at the same time. There is no wiggle room or any other way to route the header that I can see. With the header resting on the steering box there is about a quarter of an inch of space at the bottom of the flange. With the header raised enough to clear the steering box this gap increases of course. The only solution that I can see is to cut the header about half an inch past the mounting flange and fishmouth in a wedge shaped piece of pipe on all three pipes. Even this would mean at the collector making an immediate 90 degree turn towards the engine and another 90 downward all to narrowly miss the steering column. I have emailed pictures to this Larry guy to show him what I mean but I haven't heard anything back yet. I see what you guys are saying about Clifford. WOW. Has anyone else had these fitment issues.
slantsixdan
=..=
Fitment issues and Clifford headers go together like hockey and beer, eh! It's always been that way. Dutra Duals are a better idea unless we're going racing.
The mini starter swap didn't work for you because the Canadian-built Slant-6 cars kept the starter drive and ring gear dimensions that had been used only in '60-'61 in the States. The Canadian cars had a direct-drive Prestolite ("Auto-Lite") starter similar to the US '60-'61 Slant-6 starters.
The gear-reduction starter, first used in '62 on everything in the US and on V8s in Canada, introduced a new starter drive/ring gear geometry. The drive pinion has ten teeth and is ø32.5mm (vs the '60-'61 US and -'66 Canada, with 9 teeth and ø25.4mm).
There is no parts store off-the-shelf starter that will directly replace the early-type \6 starter. If you want to run a mini starter, you'd either need to custom-build one or swap in a torque converter or flywheel (as applicable) with the later ring gear on it, then you can use the same mini starters you read about other people using, including the '91 318 item you bought.
The mini starter swap didn't work for you because the Canadian-built Slant-6 cars kept the starter drive and ring gear dimensions that had been used only in '60-'61 in the States. The Canadian cars had a direct-drive Prestolite ("Auto-Lite") starter similar to the US '60-'61 Slant-6 starters.
The gear-reduction starter, first used in '62 on everything in the US and on V8s in Canada, introduced a new starter drive/ring gear geometry. The drive pinion has ten teeth and is ø32.5mm (vs the '60-'61 US and -'66 Canada, with 9 teeth and ø25.4mm).
There is no parts store off-the-shelf starter that will directly replace the early-type \6 starter. If you want to run a mini starter, you'd either need to custom-build one or swap in a torque converter or flywheel (as applicable) with the later ring gear on it, then you can use the same mini starters you read about other people using, including the '91 318 item you bought.
Charrlie_S
Well-Known Member
I'll bet our new member's (welcome) 64 Valiant has a 170 slant. There are no headers for a 170 in any car that are a bolt on. The 170 ports are approx 1.5 inches lower (and slightly more toward the driver fender) then the 225, due to the shorter block. Any header to be used on a 170 will have to be modified.
Aussiespeed has a header That is supposed to fit with the 170, but the early ones did not. Check with them to verify. Early A body Chrysler slant 6 tubular headers AS0079 | Aussiespeed Street & Racing Products Australia
Aussiespeed has a header That is supposed to fit with the 170, but the early ones did not. Check with them to verify. Early A body Chrysler slant 6 tubular headers AS0079 | Aussiespeed Street & Racing Products Australia
Charrlie_S
Well-Known Member
What I do (170 manual steering), is, between the bends (on the straight part) cut a "V" notch in the three pipes, and bend the tubes upward untill the collector clears the steering box. Then weld the notched part back together. I don't think you can bend them far enough to clear, if you have power steering.
PS: This same mod is required if you have a 225, and power steering, in a 66 down "A" body.
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David White
New Member
Hi
Thanks for the info. You are right-the motor is a 170. I have found a newer 225 that I want to rebuild and add performance parts so I will save the headers for that.
David White
New Member
Hi
I have just replied to Charlie_s and the motor is a 170 anyway. I have purchased a newer 225 and plan on rebuilding it with some performance parts and I will save the headers for that.
willypete67
Well-Known Member
I used a short starter off of a used amish buggy, it work fine for me. Its a bit slow to start but I got it off ebay for 2 dollars.
Craigcharlesjohnson
Member
I know this is an old post, but I just want to thank Slantsixdan for posting this and saving me the frustration and issues of trying to fit a starter like the 1991 318 the other person bought, on my 1964 Canadian Valiant!
With the popularity of slant sixes and the time that had passed I searched to see if there was now a proper mini-starter for our early model Canadian slant sixes. I finally found one from a shop in Australia. Link below.
Again, a big thank you to Slantsixdan for sharing his knowledge here to the community!
Chrysler Valiant Parts & Accessories | PlumKrazy Garage
Your Chrysler Valiant specialists & one stop destination for all things Chrysler. Valiant parts & accessories from 1962-1981 to keep your Valiant on the road.
www.plumkrazygarage.com.au
Craigcharlesjohnson
Member
Update to this post. Do not buy the Mini-starter from this place! It is junk and I won’t use it.I know this is an old post, but I just want to thank Slantsixdan for posting this and saving me the frustration and issues of trying to fit a starter like the 1991 318 the other person bought, on my 1964 Canadian Valiant!
With the popularity of slant sixes and the time that had passed I searched to see if there was now a proper mini-starter for our early model Canadian slant sixes. I finally found one from a shop in Australia. Link below.
Again, a big thank you to Slantsixdan for sharing his knowledge here to the community!
Chrysler Valiant Parts & Accessories | PlumKrazy Garage
Your Chrysler Valiant specialists & one stop destination for all things Chrysler. Valiant parts & accessories from 1962-1981 to keep your Valiant on the road.
It would not disengage from the flywheel. They said shim it. We shimmed it and it still didnt work (awful sound!) they said shim it up to 8mm! Umm no thanks. To me if you have to shim something that much, there was zero care into putting this together. And their 100% satisfaction guarantee is nonexistent! They will not let me return it. ****’s
I’m still very thankful to Slantsixdan on all the knowledge he shared here!
And it looks like he is still correct in saying nobody makes a mini-starter to replace the direct drive starter. So my search continues.
BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
I might be a little less angry at the supplier for that rare starter, especially since it seems there is no alternate product. Put yourself in their shoes, considering it is a very small market, selling maybe 6 starters per year if lucky, and perhaps your car varies in some way. I say that because for my older M-B there are choices like $170 for a set of door weatherstripping from aftermarket company URO vs $650 for a M-B brand set (if can find). Purists rant about "never buy from URO, because ...". But many of their parts are fine and affordable. They even visit owner's forums and listen to owners and adjust their suppliers. For rarer cars, it can take teamwork to keep them on the road.
Craigcharlesjohnson
Member
Sorry, I don’t put up with crap from sellers that sell crap and then don’t uphold their “100% satisfaction guarantee”. They sell junk and don’t want to stand behind it, they deserve to be boycotted. I usually say you get what you pay for, but these guys charge top dollar, so in this case I didn’t get what I paid for. I just got ripped off
"Shim" the starter? C'mon now that's just in the GMs. They mount their starters differently than Mopar ever did
Craigcharlesjohnson
Member
I know right! I could see 20 thou as a shim, but 8 mm?!
Charrlie_S
Well-Known Member
5/16 of an inch? Where are you supposed to put the shim? Between the starter and the bellhousing, to move it toward the front of the car, away from the flywheel?
Craigcharlesjohnson
Member
Yes that is exactly what they wanted. . Pure junk!
I have a mini on my /6, only because it's what I had sitting here. I definitely miss the sound of the old (rebuilder PN) 3257/3258/3250 Mopar starters.
I have a few but each has a problem. Dead spot,bad Bendix, etc.
I happened to be camping in Wisconsin a couple of months ago, and stopped into a Mills Fleet Farm.
It appears they are either changing companies or discontinuing their line of starters and alternators.
When I was there in June I bought a "3250" which they listed for a 87-88 D/W truck. And it had a mini starter in the box, 89+ calls for a mini.
In the column for the "new" versions they have the number for the first iteration of the mini as their offering for those wanting new instead of reman all the way back in to the 70s.
I found a mini disguised in a "3250" box for $20.
Core of $16.50.
Look up an early 90s and the mini that those years called for was $40. Core wound up being $45. Same exact starter I got for $20 a month earlier!!!!!
I wasn't worried about a core for that first one, add 20 and 16.50 and still cheap for a fresh starter.
I didn't know that Id be headed back to the same area in July. So I took them a core and a 2nd core, bought one of the $40 remans (it's the mini as listed under it's "real" pn for the early 90s, exactly the same unit I got disguised as a 3250 for $20 the month before. And I brought along a 2nd one I had sitting on the bench that I didn't know where came from/if it was any good etc just in case I ended up back there again from the campground the 2nd time around. So for $60 I have 2 freshly remanned original style Mopar mini starters sitting here just in case I should need one for my fury or my d150 or my Dakotas....
Parts that I have spares of don't seem to go bad for some reason.
But $60 for 2 of them is cheaper than junkyard scrounging-price around here.
I know that this don't help the op but may help others in the area.....
I can look in the garage and get the PN off of these starters I got (same PN on both) in case anyone wants it
I have a few but each has a problem. Dead spot,bad Bendix, etc.
I happened to be camping in Wisconsin a couple of months ago, and stopped into a Mills Fleet Farm.
It appears they are either changing companies or discontinuing their line of starters and alternators.
When I was there in June I bought a "3250" which they listed for a 87-88 D/W truck. And it had a mini starter in the box, 89+ calls for a mini.
In the column for the "new" versions they have the number for the first iteration of the mini as their offering for those wanting new instead of reman all the way back in to the 70s.
I found a mini disguised in a "3250" box for $20.
Core of $16.50.
Look up an early 90s and the mini that those years called for was $40. Core wound up being $45. Same exact starter I got for $20 a month earlier!!!!!
I wasn't worried about a core for that first one, add 20 and 16.50 and still cheap for a fresh starter.
I didn't know that Id be headed back to the same area in July. So I took them a core and a 2nd core, bought one of the $40 remans (it's the mini as listed under it's "real" pn for the early 90s, exactly the same unit I got disguised as a 3250 for $20 the month before. And I brought along a 2nd one I had sitting on the bench that I didn't know where came from/if it was any good etc just in case I ended up back there again from the campground the 2nd time around. So for $60 I have 2 freshly remanned original style Mopar mini starters sitting here just in case I should need one for my fury or my d150 or my Dakotas....
Parts that I have spares of don't seem to go bad for some reason.
But $60 for 2 of them is cheaper than junkyard scrounging-price around here.
I know that this don't help the op but may help others in the area.....
I can look in the garage and get the PN off of these starters I got (same PN on both) in case anyone wants it
slantsixdan
=..=
@Craigcharlesjohnson
"Hey, Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!"
"Oh, no, Bullwinkle, c'mon, now; do I really have to say it?
Yahbut, this time for sure, fer sher. I just remembered that many years ago, I sourced the needed 9-tooth, 25mm drive pinion to put a regular ol' normal ol' boring ol' mini starter on a pre-'67 Canadian Slant-6 car (or a U.S. '60-'61, etc). I've just dug through my archives and found the source, called them and confirmed they still have it. Ring IMI Performance in California on 562-907-9400 and tell them you need an
IMI-GT9/25. It's $15 and includes the retainer, spring, etc. Then just get a shelf-stock mini starter, replace its 10-tooth pinion with your new 9-tooth item, bolt it on, make the necessary changes to the starter circuit (add a starter relay) and go. Don't forget, you'll still need the correct stamped-steel starter "seal" (don't call it a "shim" or you'll get in dutch with god and Walter P. Chrysler) that goes between the starter and the bellhousing. The one for the direct-drive starter has a much bigger hole in it and won't work properly with the smaller nose on the new starter. The correct "seal" is the one used on a zillion Mopars with the Chrysler-built gear-reduction starter. If you don't find one locally, it's this piece.
"Hey, Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!"
"Oh, no, Bullwinkle, c'mon, now; do I really have to say it?
Yahbut, this time for sure, fer sher. I just remembered that many years ago, I sourced the needed 9-tooth, 25mm drive pinion to put a regular ol' normal ol' boring ol' mini starter on a pre-'67 Canadian Slant-6 car (or a U.S. '60-'61, etc). I've just dug through my archives and found the source, called them and confirmed they still have it. Ring IMI Performance in California on 562-907-9400 and tell them you need an
IMI-GT9/25. It's $15 and includes the retainer, spring, etc. Then just get a shelf-stock mini starter, replace its 10-tooth pinion with your new 9-tooth item, bolt it on, make the necessary changes to the starter circuit (add a starter relay) and go. Don't forget, you'll still need the correct stamped-steel starter "seal" (don't call it a "shim" or you'll get in dutch with god and Walter P. Chrysler) that goes between the starter and the bellhousing. The one for the direct-drive starter has a much bigger hole in it and won't work properly with the smaller nose on the new starter. The correct "seal" is the one used on a zillion Mopars with the Chrysler-built gear-reduction starter. If you don't find one locally, it's this piece.
Craigcharlesjohnson
Member
Slantsixdan, you are a godsend! I owe you a beer! Thank you again!
I have already contacted IMI - one of the local shops had also directed me to them, but I haven’t heard back from them yet. I’ll give them a call and let them know the parts you have told me about!
Thank you!
slantsixdan
=..=
Fer sher, fer sher!
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