Missed on this combo?

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I see a lot of opinions. That's great and all but how many of these opinions are coming from guys who have built engines, ported heads, and have ran their combos on a Dyno after doing their own work. I'm sure it's a small percentage. Unfortunately when building an engine there can be a bit of trial and error. No one has a crystal ball. I've seen heads that looked great on a flow bench not work all that well on an engine. I've also seen combos that look like garbage on paper make great power. When we did engine masters we would order several cams from different manufactures. Multiples from some. You have an idea what will work, but sometimes reality is a different story. You have chosen an expensive route to chase dyno horsepower (cylinder heads) Unfortunately it didn't work out yet. That's part if the deal. You're in it now. At some point though if you need the number, sometimes the answer is in the simpler stuff (if the heads are decent). Camshaft, camshaft timing, intakes, intake/plenum work, carburation, spacers, etc. those may yield the results your looking for, it's just time and money unless you're coping an existing proven combo. I'm confident you will get there and I wish you luck.
 
rumblefish360 said:
The conspiracy thinkers are here to badmouth and make baseless claims poking of people they truly don't even know.

Take a deep breath Mike sit back and relax ignore some of the posts.
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I think the only people who have been badmouthed in this long and winding thread is Hughes... in fact this has been one of the most respectful topics I have followed on the old inter-web in a while...the bickering usually starts on the first page
 
67autocross said:
I think the only people who have been badmouthed in this long and winding thread is Hughes... in fact this has been one of the most respectful topics I have followed on the old inter-web in a while...the bickering usually starts on the first page
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I agree and in retrospect the hughes heads were not all that bad.Mike i hope that it works out after all is said and done.
 
Ironmike said:
Well well well. I wondered when this **** would start. Don't both you two think that was the FIRST thing I might do.

And Brett Miller didn't port theses heads. He designed the port. They were ported by someone even sharper than him. Is it just too hard to believe that the pros made a mistake? Or maybe the friggin CNC went haywire?

How on earth an engine makes a 560 horsepower pull, comes off the dyno, gets a new pair of heads, then back on the dyno, makes a horrible pull........

I'm having trouble typing this......

I guess it ate itself after I put it back together on the way to the dyno shop.

Come on guys.
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Ironmike, if my post comes across as critical I apologize, it was not my intention. I like everyone else was hoping your engine would make the power you were looking for. Like the old saying the devil is in the details, maybe a fresh set of eyes to look at everything may find something. Good luck going forward and I hope you get it figured out.
 
IMO this is not that big a deal, it isn't some terminal disease that can't be cured. It's an engine or what everyone loves to say an "airpump". You'll figure it out or you won't. If it was easy everyone would be doing it. J.Rob
 
I wasn't impressed with the bloomer heads from the go, post 411.

There are issues with that combo, twice now...****, what is this.. heads you lose?? you could say that.
I don't like the heads, both pairs. This is an example of numbers and their importance to where they are in the cam range...and what they mean by how soon they come in. Dyno sheet would answer much of this better.. but mike said they were LOW...so anyone can speculate.
Really needed to be getting those cranking numbers, I don't like that manifold either for this combo.
Rod's nuts are on the line, so I really have no doubt he will cover your, by now, very sore arse and get you a better set of something.
 
Got a call today from Rod Bloomer. Asked me to pack up the heads and ship them to Brett Miller. I will get a refund, along with shipping after Brett receives them.

He said Brett needs to have them to figure out what the hell went wrong. He wants to eventually fix it and try again with the head program.

We did speak Friday and at that time he asked me to be patient. He would figure something out....12 hours later he says he's going to refund me.
I get the feeling he may have been alerted to this little thread going here.

I was never even remotely pissed at HIM, or threatening this or that. I did tell him that a whole bunch of people were waiting for results and that is/was a true statement.

At this point I really believe you should NOT launch a product until you have concrete data backing you up.

I asked him to keep me in the loop and I tell you what. If he calls and tells me they figured it out and fixed it and here's our results. I would probably buy a pair.

That would have to happen fairly quickly though. I STILL want to get this engine done sometime this summer. Right now, I know of no source of heads that I'm willing to buy. If I knew a really solid porter, I might consider grabbing a pair of the bare Promaxx castings.

So that's where we are. No check in my hands yet, but I believe he meant what he said. If it all happens, I will tell every car guy I know what a solid guy he is. Not to mention the power of FABO.
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
I wasn't impressed with the bloomer heads from the go, post 411.

There are issues with that combo, twice now...****, what is this.. heads you lose?? you could say that.
I don't like the heads, both pairs. This is an example of numbers and their importance to where they are in the cam range...and what they mean by how soon they come in. Dyno sheet would answer much of this better.. but mike said they were LOW...so anyone can speculate.
Really needed to be getting those cranking numbers, I don't like that manifold either for this combo.
Rod's nuts are on the line, so I really have no doubt he will cover your, by now, very sore arse and get you a better set of something.
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It's almost unbelievable that TWICE I completely forgot cranking compression. I think when you get hit in the face you forget stuff.

As far as intakes, what else I'd even out there? What manifold would you use?
 
Ironmike said:
It's almost unbelievable that TWICE I completely forgot cranking compression. I think when you get hit in the face you forget stuff.

As far as intakes, what else I'd even out there? What manifold would you use?
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The intake was the same between both heads so that probably isn't the issue.

I'm glad something was worked out and you at least get your money back. I knew Bloomer was a good guy and would do something.

I'm hoping Brett can figure out what went wrong, as another source for heads is never a bad thing.
 
Yeah. Same intake. Except I had to port it bigger for the BPE heads. Get the feeling it may be useless. Guess I won't know until I find some heads.
 
Well you can't ask for more at this point from BPE...in the end I really had hoped these things would work as I want to do another small block.
I wonder if Brett Miller ever had an actual set of the heads after they were built to flow or did he hand the port design off to someone...maybe this whole thing is just a case of to many cooks in the kitchen with Bloomer, Miller and Bischoff all involved and some detail was missed....Like Yellow Rose stated they are not breaking any new ground with these things.

And Iron Mike thanks for testing these and posting all ups and downs....and keep this post going when you try the next heads!
 
Ironmike said:
Yeah. Same intake. Except I had to port it bigger for the BPE heads. Get the feeling it may be useless. Guess I won't know until I find some heads.
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WHELP might as well try the Victors. From everything I've seen and heard about them. They should more than meet or exceed your goals.
 
Lustle said:
WHELP might as well try the Victors. From everything I've seen and heard about them. They should more than meet or exceed your goals.
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Holy crap! I'm broke now. I think a guy needs around 4 grand, realistically to get the Victor's up and running. I think.
 
67autocross said:
Well you can't ask for more at this point from BPE...in the end I really had hoped these things would work as I want to do another small block.
I wonder if Brett Miller ever had an actual set of the heads after they were built to flow or did he hand the port design off to someone...maybe this whole thing is just a case of to many cooks in the kitchen with Bloomer, Miller and Bischoff all involved and some detail was missed....Like Yellow Rose stated they are not breaking any new ground with these things.

And Iron Mike thanks for testing these and posting all ups and downs....and keep this post going when you try the next heads!
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I think you hit the nail on the head, brutha!
 
Ironmike said:
Holy crap! I'm broke now. I think a guy needs around 4 grand, realistically to get the Victor's up and running. I think.
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I don't think you're wrong about the price.

How about a set of 59* W heads? They make W9's in that. They should flow buckets!
 
Lustle said:
I don't think you're wrong about the price.

How about a set of 59* W heads? They make W9's in that. They should flow buckets!
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And costs buckets to convert to it. If the original build was budgeted to do something other than stock rocker offset, stock intake bolt location and stock header pattern you could make an argument for something in the W series. But IronMikes budget is hammered.

I hate to say it but I always tell my customers who want to make power, and make it RELATIVELY easily and inexpensively, then you need to start with a W-2 or better. After I bought my flow bench, I learned the truth about not living and and dying by flow numbers. The BEST stock rocker head will never make the power even the lowly W-2 will with a modern valve job. Yes, the initial cost is more. But it eliminates disappointment later on.

In 2001 I did a 408 that went 565 at 5200 RPM. It took fully ported Edelbrocks to do that, and with W-2's I could have easily made another 15-20 HP before I ever took a grinder to the W-2's. You can't just look at raw flow. You have to look at cross section. When you increase the displacement by 25% and engine speed by another 17-20% the stock cross section will never feed it. That means duration must go up, LSA must be closer and the intake manifold as big as you can get it.

Just my .02 on this and another THANK YOU to IronMike for publishing this. He may not care now, but he is edcuating everyone who sees this thread. Education is neither cheap, easy or quick. IronMike is giving all something free that many have paid for.
 
yellow rose said:
And costs buckets to convert to it. If the original build was budgeted to do something other than stock rocker offset, stock intake bolt location and stock header pattern you could make an argument for something in the W series. But IronMikes budget is hammered.

I hate to say it but I always tell my customers who want to make power, and make it RELATIVELY easily and inexpensively, then you need to start with a W-2 or better. After I bought my flow bench, I learned the truth about not living and and dying by flow numbers. The BEST stock rocker head will never make the power even the lowly W-2 will with a modern valve job. Yes, the initial cost is more. But it eliminates disappointment later on.

In 2001 I did a 408 that went 565 at 5200 RPM. It took fully ported Edelbrocks to do that, and with W-2's I could have easily made another 15-20 HP before I ever took a grinder to the W-2's. You can't just look at raw flow. You have to look at cross section. When you increase the displacement by 25% and engine speed by another 17-20% the stock cross section will never feed it. That means duration must go up, LSA must be closer and the intake manifold as big as you can get it.

Just my .02 on this and another THANK YOU to IronMike for publishing this. He may not care now, but he is edcuating everyone who sees this thread. Education is neither cheap, easy or quick. IronMike is giving all something free that many have paid for.
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hahaha oh I know it'll cost bucks. I'm just giving IronMike the gears. Gotta have a sense of humour about all this!

But yes. I am very appreciative of IronMike for him detailing what's going on with his setup and what problems he is having. Just like when IQ and RAMM tell us about their experiences and the power they make with certain combos. Doing that really gives everyone on here a leg up and idea on what to do with their own builds. Making everyone's lives a lot easier. So I appreciate that.
 
Knowing what I know now, starting fresh......yup. W2's would probably be on the menu. It seems just too damn hard to make REAL power with the standard set up.

That being said, I think I ain't giving up yet. I have a pretty nice refund check coming and a bad *** shortblock with no top. It looks kinda naked just sitting there......
20170508_012209.jpg
 
THANK YOU for this comparison..I may end up with Eddie Victors instead ......
 
Ironmike said:
Knowing what I know now, starting fresh......yup. W2's would probably be on the menu. It seems just too damn hard to make REAL power with the standard set up.

That being said, I think I ain't giving up yet. I have a pretty nice refund check coming and a bad *** shortblock with no top. It looks kinda naked just sitting there......View attachment 1715045452
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Ya know, I have a really nice W2 setup that would be pretty sweet on that shortblock, I'd consider selling them, PM if you might be interested, just throwing it out there
 
rrvolare said:
THANK YOU for this comparison..I may end up with Eddie Victors instead ......
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Since I am in a similar boat as the thread starter....

The Victors. There 2K per head.
A favorable purchase only due to the hindsight of this thread.
I forged ahead with my W5's. Always a gamble with those. The set I had done didn't pan out as well as hoped. Still, they ported out very well. Just not a maximum effort finish.

justinp61 said:
Make sure you buy pistons that will work with the Victors.
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IIRC, most (if not all) piston manufacturers will make 1 or 2 alterations to the piston you select before they call it a "Custom piston."
So, you *should* be able to order your slugs and state you need a 15* instead of a 18* valve reliefs at no charge.

KB back started getting so many orders for odd combos that they now stock those pistons in there house. Examples are Chevy 383, Chrysler 400 - 451, .060 - 360 pistons for use in 340 blocks.

The head just has to become popular enough. Currently, a tall order at there cost.
 
replicaracer43 said:
Ya know, I have a really nice W2 setup that would be pretty sweet on that shortblock, I'd consider selling them, PM if you might be interested, just throwing it out there
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If mike is not interested in your w2
I may be. I sent you a pm
Thanks
 
I just read all of this, WOW , nightmare from HELL, very sorry Mike, hope you get it figured out.
 
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