MoparPowa's money hole (66 Dart 5.7 hemi build)

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Well... got the engine in, no transmission currently bolted to it as the adapter plate I bought for the 2004R, in combination with the actual mounting surface of the transmission, hits the firewall. The engine fits VERY tight. I blame Tincup's pictures for somehow making me think that I would have more room inside the engine bay. I now find myself very confused as to what I will do for headers. Anyhow, I was leaning towards swapping out the auto for a stick and this has pretty well convinced me to move forward with doing so. Currently trying to figure out exactly what parts I will need to mount the MA5 5-speed behind this 5.7 hemi. Quite a bit of information on the web about these kinds of swaps but as with anything, it's all in the details. Been in a bit of a slump lately about the car and getting the engine in has helped to motivate me(by recommendation of some coworkers). I intend to do updates more often and hopefully make some meaningful progress. I can confirm for those of you with early A's, 5.7 hemi's, and the Alterktion front suspension(a fair minority I assume), that the A/C compressor will indeed fit with the power steering rack. I was just about giddy when I saw this confirmed. I'll get more pictures later. Thanks to those of you that still follow this and I promise I'm not giving up on the car.

-Ryan
 

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Thanks Scott, I hope everything is well with you up north.

-Ryan
yeah things are good up here.My 66 Dart is ready for the race season and might get out next weekend for some T&T.I had the 73 Dart Sport out for the first time today and stopped by my friends race shop.We were discussing doing a backhalve and 4 link on the 66 next winter.I need to get the car lower to the ground.:burnout:
 
Man, that thing looks like it fills that bay pretty well.. I know you can figure out the exhaust one tube at a time.
 
i can't believe i just found this build. can not wait to see it go further. :thumleft:
 
Well... got the engine in, no transmission currently bolted to it as the adapter plate I bought for the 2004R, in combination with the actual mounting surface of the transmission, hits the firewall. The engine fits VERY tight. I blame Tincup's pictures for somehow making me think that I would have more room inside the engine bay. I now find myself very confused as to what I will do for headers. Anyhow, I was leaning towards swapping out the auto for a stick and this has pretty well convinced me to move forward with doing so. Currently trying to figure out exactly what parts I will need to mount the MA5 5-speed behind this 5.7 hemi. Quite a bit of information on the web about these kinds of swaps but as with anything, it's all in the details. Been in a bit of a slump lately about the car and getting the engine in has helped to motivate me(by recommendation of some coworkers). I intend to do updates more often and hopefully make some meaningful progress. I can confirm for those of you with early A's, 5.7 hemi's, and the Alterktion front suspension(a fair minority I assume), that the A/C compressor will indeed fit with the power steering rack. I was just about giddy when I saw this confirmed. I'll get more pictures later. Thanks to those of you that still follow this and I promise I'm not giving up on the car.

-Ryan
I have an extra set of Jeep SRT8 manifolds if you are interested. Shoot me a PM.
 
I am starting something very similar to this, but I am hoping to use either a 6.1 or 6.4 out of an srt8. Would either of you, TinCup or MoparPowa PM me. I have some questions.
 
I breezed through the posts and pictures but I haven't read the threads. Do you have plans for subframe ties? You will need them. tmm
 
Currently trying to figure out exactly what parts I will need to mount the MA5 5-speed behind this 5.7 hemi.

Hi Ryan,

If I understand correctly, matching the MA5 to the 5.7 is as easy as a Dakota 3.9/5.2 to AX-15 bellhousing. I KNOW the MA5 shares the same trans/bell bolt pattern as the AX-15. I don't know the length of the input shaft compared to the AX-15. You may need an adapter there.

Depending on clearance, I don't know if you'll be able to use the Dakota style clutch slave cylinder, or a hydraulic throw-out bearing.

You would use a Dakota sized flywheel, properly balanced for the 5.7 and matching pressure plate. Then use a clutch disc with the MA5 splines. Can't think of the name right now, but there is a clutch company that will custom "mix and match" the clutch kit for your needs.

Mike in FL
 
Hey Ryan,

Its been most of a year since you last posted. Have you gotten any further with this build? I know things, life and motivation (or lack of) can get in the way.

Mike in FL
 
I am starting something very similar to this, but I am hoping to use either a 6.1 or 6.4 out of an srt8. Would either of you, TinCup or MoparPowa PM me. I have some questions.

PM'd, if I can still be of any help at this point.

I breezed through the posts and pictures but I haven't read the threads. Do you have plans for subframe ties? You will need them. tmm

Yes, updates next week in regards to that.

Going to be a hellofa ride when you are done....

Thanks, I sure hope so, it's taking long enough...

Hi Ryan,

If I understand correctly, matching the MA5 to the 5.7 is as easy as a Dakota 3.9/5.2 to AX-15 bellhousing. I KNOW the MA5 shares the same trans/bell bolt pattern as the AX-15. I don't know the length of the input shaft compared to the AX-15. You may need an adapter there.

Depending on clearance, I don't know if you'll be able to use the Dakota style clutch slave cylinder, or a hydraulic throw-out bearing.

You would use a Dakota sized flywheel, properly balanced for the 5.7 and matching pressure plate. Then use a clutch disc with the MA5 splines. Can't think of the name right now, but there is a clutch company that will custom "mix and match" the clutch kit for your needs.

Mike in FL

Mike, thanks for all of this info. I have shifted gears again, my usual, to trying to make the auto trans work, but I still intend to keep all of this information handy as it may still not work out.

Hey Ryan,

Its been most of a year since you last posted. Have you gotten any further with this build? I know things, life and motivation (or lack of) can get in the way.

Mike in FL

I'm still alive, I promise.

how is this going? Tincup modified his shock towers to gain in the engine compartment as seen in this link: http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?p=584172&highlight=shock+tower#post584172

Trying to minimize the amount of work I add to my already endless pile. ;) However, some mods to the shock towers (minimal) are in the future.
 
Long story short...

1. I got married last year
2. I deployed overseas earlier this year
3. I "lost" some money (inherited debt)
4. I lost motivation (hard to feel good spending money)

All that said, it's time to get back to business.

I spent yesterday cutting out the torsion bar x-member to try and see if I could make the 200-4R auto trans fit better in the tunnel. Some of you will remember that I intended to run this trans before I started talking about the MA5 manual. Just a few posts up (albeit years in time) I mention that the adapter plate and transmission his the firewall. However, I'm thinking that it wouldn't clear the firewall is because it was angled too far downwards. I hadn't cut out any of the torsion bar x-member at the point, meaning the transmission would fit up in the tunnel correctly, forcing the engine angle downward and the top of the plate into the firewall. That's the hypothesis at least, currently. In a few more days, I will make it back out to the shop and see if I can get it to fit in the bay now without hitting the firewall. If it does fit, I'll be running an auto. If not, back to figuring out the MA5. I'll confirm next week, for any of you early a body 3rd gen hemi Alterktion equipped folks out there (surely there's at least 5?) interested in running this transmission, that it does indeed fit with no tunnel modifications required to the floor sheet metal. It looks that way to me right now, but we shall see. If it fits, next step will be designing the new trans x-member. My goal is to have everything in and tacked by Friday when my welding guy (and brother) comes in. Secondary goal is to completely finish my frame connector mods and possibly tack them in as well. More to come... Action shot for proof ;)
 

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Every time I gear up to put the New Gen in my early A mock-up I come back to this thread.

the early A / Hemi will never be a simple bolt out / bolt-in conversion as evident by the giant cresent wrench and BF hammer in post 26. It is a major chore (IMO) to put a wedge in these babies.

hats off to you,....wish I had some suggestions / ideas but you already have the guru (Tin Cup) at your fingertips.

Denny
 
Thanks for your service! Hope all your projects work out well.

There is a way to use the 200R4 without an adapter plate. A guy can use a Reid SFI rated bellhousing which bolts to the trans with a small CNC'd adapter. It looks lots better too.

I agree about the subframe connecters. You might want to check out the complete US Cartool chassis stiffening kit. I added one to my convertible and the difference is nothing short of amazing!

Good luck, sir.
 
Every time I gear up to put the New Gen in my early A mock-up I come back to this thread.

the early A / Hemi will never be a simple bolt out / bolt-in conversion as evident by the giant cresent wrench and BF hammer in post 26. It is a major chore (IMO) to put a wedge in these babies.

hats off to you,....wish I had some suggestions / ideas but you already have the guru (Tin Cup) at your fingertips.

Denny

You can say that again, seems just about anything with the early a bodies is an uphill battle. I just keep trying to remind myself, "it'll be worth it, one task at a time."

Thanks for your service! Hope all your projects work out well.

There is a way to use the 200R4 without an adapter plate. A guy can use a Reid SFI rated bellhousing which bolts to the trans with a small CNC'd adapter. It looks lots better too.

I agree about the subframe connecters. You might want to check out the complete US Cartool chassis stiffening kit. I added one to my convertible and the difference is nothing short of amazing!

Good luck, sir.

Cost has been a major factor in this build. I, like many do I imagine, greatly underestimated the cost of the hemi swap, along with everything else required to do the car, and have had to radically scale back my initial plans. I was familiar with the aftermarket bells that can be added to the 200-4R, however I went this route as it offered me the ability to use an empty stock case as a mockup and buy the built transmission down the road when the car is ready to go on the road. I know the plate looks huge (and it is) but it's of no concern to me because it will be cut down to size with a water jet. I just need to get my oil pan on the engine and try to find a proper dust cover for the transmission so I can draw the circle to match the dust cover. Make sense? As for frame connectors, see my update below. :)
 
Alright, lots to discuss... Let's get down to business. I don't have many "in-progress" pictures of the work, I can either take lots of pictures or get lots of work done, I've elected to do the latter.

1. The 200-4R is in and fits very well, much better than I could have hoped. I had to cut out the torsion bar x-member and grind down some of the pinch weld as well as hammer out a couple spots of the floor, mostly up near the front that will be under the dash. Should be practically unnoticeable under the carpet in my opinion. The portion of the torsion bar x-member that had to be cut out and ground down will be welded to the tunnel to reinforce it. Additionally, I plan to cut out both torsion bar mounts and put in some 4" pipe cut in half for exhaust cutouts so I can keep my ground clearance to a maximum.

2. The trans x-member is fabricated and tacked. The 200-4R's mount is around 5" back (pulling from memory, will edit this for future reference for others) from the original trans mount so I had to design a way to move it back. I don't like the crossmember styles that extend across the subframe connectors and I wanted to make use of the original x-member as much as I could. So, I went with the simplest idea I could come up with and just cut the stock mount on a chop saw at the angles I wanted on each side and then I put some 1/4" or so plate in to move the physical mount portion back. It was way more work than I originally expected or intended but I'm very pleased with how it turned out. It won't affect my exhaust routing like a subframe based mount would and it used the existing infrastructure. The engine angle is right where it needs to be at around 2.6-2.8 degrees down.

3. The frame connectors are in. I purchased the laser cut frame connectors from John at uscartool probably close to two years ago. This was right after John had released the 63-66 early a connectors. However, John designed these to fit a 108" wheelbase, not the 111" of my Dart. So obviously they didn't fit, nowhere close. John more or less wanted me to do the work to make him a template and frankly I wasn't pleased with the proposition. All told, I ended up modifying them with an extension where the rear floorpan appears to have been extended and the room added to stretch these cars to 111" wheelbase. Everything else seemed to match up relatively but lots of grinding was still necessary. As for the current connectors he sells, no idea if he ever did the work to add the other wheelbase option or not, buyer beware?

So, what's next?

I'm planning on finishing my mini tub next, doing the torsion bar exhaust cutout mods, and installing the torque boxes I got from Auto Rust Technicians (car should be very stiff, I'm excited to see how well it turns). After that I will be moving on to more specific work, brake line and emergency cable routing, fuel line, etc. My goal is to get all of the work on the bottom of the car done. At which point I will put the car back on the rotisserie, remove all of the suspension and paint the suspension, rear end, everything in SPI epoxy. When everything is off the bottom of the car I will turn it sideways on the rotisserie and blast the bottom clean and spray all of it with SPI epoxy and Lizard Skin. After that, finishing up driveline work. I need to get a center section for my rear end, I will need a driveshaft made, I need to buy the shorty block hugger headers from street and performance to see if they will fit at all and then eventually take the car to a shop to have the exhaust done. All of it big money, that's why I'm doing everything I can do right now that doesn't cost me that much, just time.

Updates may be sporadic, I'm trying to actually work on the car more so I can cruise around in it and not this forum. :burnout:
 

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