My take on the oiling system crossover tube for the small block

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How do the block mods here differ from the popular Mopar Performance copper tube modification back in the 80's and 90's?
 
Duane said:
Yr you have a way of replying without being able to stay on topic.
My last post never said one thing about velocity. It was strictly a comparison between the two makes of engines and how they oil from stock. I have no doubt that the way you solved the oiling issues worked for you back in the day.
Many years ago when I started my apprenticeship, a wise tradesman taught me that there is always more than 1 right way to skin a cat.
Mr. Mcallister does not agree with some of your points either.
I notice you have not directly replied to any of his posts and only mine. This is an oiling discussion not an rpm competition.
If a guy has a motor eating a rod bearing every 7-8 runs and he goes through a trial and error process which results in the motor living for 150 runs, who are any of us to dispute how he got it to live. That's how you learn. Keep an open mind.
I have always agreed with you that the oil timing is a valid problem.
But as my own experience has taught me and the experiences of many others, it is not the only problem. Feeding oil off of the main bearings to too many other places has also proven to be a problem.
You do not seem to grasp that the Chev design does not do this.
It uses more oil galleys to feed those other parts and those galleys are not filled up off of another bearing feed like the Chrysler. They are filled from the main galley or triage as some call it. It leaves one galley dedicated to the mains/rods and the cam. That is a key difference.
Please don,t respond with your buddies dynamometer or talk of valve springs.
Some of the oiling mods in my new motor came from a book,some came from Mr Charles Sanborn. Some came from Guitar jones. I have never seen a recommendation in any book to slot the main bearing holes, but logic tells me it makes perfect sense. I have never seen in a book the recommendation to drill all the block passages to 1/2 inch, but it makes sense. Not feeding any rockers from a main bearing to keep the oil at the crank I first learned in the stroker small block book, and many other racers including Cole Mcallister also do this.
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Part of the reason it seems I'm off topic is because I try to cover more stuff that is relative to the topic in other posts in one post.

Again, you can say the Chevy oils from 3 different galleries but it doesn't. Just a fact. I mentioned velocity because that's a reason some want a crossover.

What I care about is not telling people to do work that does nothing to address and issue. Why does a Chevy oil without full groove mains? It damn sure isn't because of the oil passages. It has to do with oil timing. Rather than continue to argue with me, why not call David Nickens and ask him. He will tell you exactly what I'm saying. We've had the discussion. When he was running Pro Stock Truck. Also spent some time with him at a race at Delta Park at Portland and when he took over the factory Pro Stock deal.

Again, why tell people to do something that does NOTHING? I don't get it. As a machinist and engine builder, it's sickening to deal with people who pick this junk up and live and die by it. Even though I'm retired I still deal with it on a regular basis. Try teaching someone running ANY ignition box their timing is not what the light says it is, even if the distributor is locked out. It's a fact, but getting the general public to learn they don't know what they don't know is a near impossibility when you can get on the net and be told that the timing light is always right.

Same thing with oiling. The Chrysler system has its flaws. If they had designed Rod oiling as well as they did valve train oiling, you'd have to do nothing and it would not be an issue. But they didn't. It was a carry over from Walter P's time at GM. You can clearly see this looking at a Pontiac.

So, in closing, if you can't make a Chrysler oil at 7500 without doing anything special, that's on you. You don't need to correct the oil timing, you don't need a crossover, you don't need to put oil in at the front of the block. None of that.

Tube the block. Full groove bearings. A HV/HP pump with a decent pan. That's it. If you want to run hydraulic lifters (again, I don't know why anyone would but that's besides the point) drill a 1/16 hole where the tube breaks through the lifter bores and instead of blocking the oil to the drivers side, just restrict it down by about 60%. That's it. I'd say unless you are spending huge resources to see if you can make power at 7500 with hydraulic lifters and not have the valve train hate you you are wasting your time.

You can't fix an oil timing issue with a crossover. Doesn't matter who says you can.
 
CNC-Dude said:
How do the block mods here differ from the popular Mopar Performance copper tube modification back in the 80's and 90's?
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They don't. It's the same thing. The discussion is does a crossover work. The answer is no it doesn't but guys want to defend some crap published in books. It's not like a book has ever been wrong.
 
It's not that some people are wrong and don't know what they are talking about.
The only way to handle them is to just ignore them.
 
yellow rose said:
Part of the reason it seems I'm off topic is because I try to cover more stuff that is relative to the topic in other posts in one post.

Again, you can say the Chevy oils from 3 different galleries but it doesn't. Just a fact. I mentioned velocity because that's a reason some want a crossover.

What I care about is not telling people to do work that does nothing to address and issue. Why does a Chevy oil without full groove mains? It damn sure isn't because of the oil passages. It has to do with oil timing. Rather than continue to argue with me, why not call David Nickens and ask him. He will tell you exactly what I'm saying. We've had the discussion. When he was running Pro Stock Truck. Also spent some time with him at a race at Delta Park at Portland and when he took over the factory Pro Stock deal.

Again, why tell people to do something that does NOTHING? I don't get it. As a machinist and engine builder, it's sickening to deal with people who pick this junk up and live and die by it. Even though I'm retired I still deal with it on a regular basis. Try teaching someone running ANY ignition box their timing is not what the light says it is, even if the distributor is locked out. It's a fact, but getting the general public to learn they don't know what they don't know is a near impossibility when you can get on the net and be told that the timing light is always right.

Same thing with oiling. The Chrysler system has its flaws. If they had designed Rod oiling as well as they did valve train oiling, you'd have to do nothing and it would not be an issue. But they didn't. It was a carry over from Walter P's time at GM. You can clearly see this looking at a Pontiac.

So, in closing, if you can't make a Chrysler oil at 7500 without doing anything special, that's on you. You don't need to correct the oil timing, you don't need a crossover, you don't need to put oil in at the front of the block. None of that.

Tube the block. Full groove bearings. A HV/HP pump with a decent pan. That's it. If you want to run hydraulic lifters (again, I don't know why anyone would but that's besides the point) drill a 1/16 hole where the tube breaks through the lifter bores and instead of blocking the oil to the drivers side, just restrict it down by about 60%. That's it. I'd say unless you are spending huge resources to see if you can make power at 7500 with hydraulic lifters and not have the valve train hate you you are wasting your time.

You can't fix an oil timing issue with a crossover. Doesn't matter who says you can.
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Blah blah,blah talk tech, if you can,t that's on you.
 
This must be the internet tech school. lmao I'm not willing to share tech on the net. lol
This site cracks me up at times.
 
The small block Olds has many of the same oiling issues that the Mopar has. I learned early on in those engines to match the #5 main cap with the oil gallery, slot the mains to match the bearings... even open up the oil return passages in the head to prevent oil from stagnating on top of the head.

As someone who has a vested interest in keeping a SBM alive at 7,200 rpms, and has an engine that tossed the #2 rod causing fatal damage, I'm trying to keep an open mind.

I had several discussion with Charles Sanborn about his oiling mods... seemed to make sense.
 
Krooser said:
The small block Olds has many of the same oiling issues that the Mopar has. I learned early on in those engines to match the #5 main cap with the oil gallery, slot the mains to match the bearings... even open up the oil return passages in the head to prevent oil from stagnating on top of the head.

As someone who has a vested interest in keeping a SBM alive at 7,200 rpms, and has an engine that tossed the #2 rod causing fatal damage, I'm trying to keep an open mind.

I had several discussion with Charles Sanborn about his oiling mods... seemed to make sense.
Click to expand...
Mr Sanborn was a smart man who was willing to share. I have followed many of his recommendations for exactly that reason. They make sense. He also had the courtesy to explain his rational when someone asked a question.
I have no problem with someone telling me I am wrong about something if they can tell me why. If you can,t then I assume the person either has an agenda or does,not know or he knows that something works but does not know why.
Such is the case with yr. what your timing light has to do with oiling is beyond me. Looks like razzle dazzle to me.
Number 2 rod I believe is fed from number 2 main which is also trying to feed your rockers. Not a coincidence imho.
 
Krooser said:
The small block Olds has many of the same oiling issues that the Mopar has. I learned early on in those engines to match the #5 main cap with the oil gallery, slot the mains to match the bearings... even open up the oil return passages in the head to prevent oil from stagnating on top of the head.

As someone who has a vested interest in keeping a SBM alive at 7,200 rpms, and has an engine that tossed the #2 rod causing fatal damage, I'm trying to keep an open mind.

I had several discussion with Charles Sanborn about his oiling mods... seemed to make sense.
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Krooser if you would like to see a good but lengthy thread that we had on oiling here is the link.lifter galley crossover tube
It is very lengthy but if you stay with it you will see what I am talking about with the slotting of the mains correcting the oil timing.
 
I'll go with whatever krooser comes up with
We fed from the front and fed the rockers externally and did a bunch of other things that probably made little difference- like the cross over tube- but they did not hurt
the tappet leaks hurt and the rocker feed hurts
now we get all this working and YR comes up with timing
I guess when we slotted the main saddles and fed from the side we were somehow addressing timing as well as getting a better hydrodynamic wedge for the mains
listening
never done 8500 in a SBM never had the heads to feed that
 
Wyrmrider said:
I'll go with whatever krooser comes up with
We fed from the front and fed the rockers externally and did a bunch of other things that probably made little difference- like the cross over tube- but they did not hurt
the tappet leaks hurt and the rocker feed hurts
now we get all this working and YR comes up with timing
I guess when we slotted the main saddles and fed from the side we were somehow addressing timing as well as getting a better hydrodynamic wedge for the mains
listening
never done 8500 in a SBM never had the heads to feed that
Click to expand...
Yr brought up the timing issue in the thread link I just posted.
I believe it is valid as well. But if you read the part of that thread showing the pictures of the Chev and Mopar cranks, they are drilled identical. The oil feed hole location in the block is not.
I believe when you slot the bearing holes that effectively you correct the timing. No one that I have seen that has recommended to slot the bearings has said what this does, but after yr posted the correct
Position on the Chev to be in the center of the saddle it occurred to me that is what it does. I also believe that when you front oiled the motor you probably cancelled the benefit of the crossover.
Opposing feeds I believe would eliminate the velocity.
I restricted all five cam bearings to 1/8 and am feeding the rockers externally from the main galley with an .080 feed hole feeding both banks. IMHO
The thread link I posted shows example pics of how yr fixed the timing. Slotting is much easier IMHO.
 
Wyrmrider said:
I'll go with whatever krooser comes up with
We fed from the front and fed the rockers externally and did a bunch of other things that probably made little difference- like the cross over tube- but they did not hurt
the tappet leaks hurt and the rocker feed hurts
now we get all this working and YR comes up with timing
I guess when we slotted the main saddles and fed from the side we were somehow addressing timing as well as getting a better hydrodynamic wedge for the mains
listening
never done 8500 in a SBM never had the heads to feed that
Click to expand...
Any pics of your side feed to the mains.
 
yellow rose said:
They don't. It's the same thing. The discussion is does a crossover work. The answer is no it doesn't but guys want to defend some crap published in books. It's not like a book has ever been wrong.
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How can anybody believe all this high-tech Pro build bull crap when you can't even keep a simple promise? Or even pay a simple debt...
 
Or provide the Hot Rod Magazine that he's getting all the names and information from...
 
Yr reminds me of the retarded guy that lives down the street. Lord forgive me when I first moved in here years ago I was nice to him and when he had to ask about my car I mentioned Woodburn Dragstrip. good Lord every time three times to four times a day he would go by and tell different stories about Woodburn dragstrip and how he was there yesterday or how he was going to be there soon with his brother. Telling stories of all the terrific crashes that happened the other day and all that stuff while I'm thinking to myself the track hasn't been open in 2 weeks? Does yr have to get debunked constantly...
ignore the guy for a couple years now it just gets so tiresome listening to all the lies...
I would have ignored him a long time ago but I know a lot of the stories come from some pretty good magazines that are truthful. I just wish he would admit he's not the one coming up with this stuff and has actually no experience....
Name dropping Racers names a few Engineers names and a bunch of self-assured writing techniques doesn't fool me...
 
Wyrmrider said:
I'll go with whatever krooser comes up with
We fed from the front and fed the rockers externally and did a bunch of other things that probably made little difference- like the cross over tube- but they did not hurt
the tappet leaks hurt and the rocker feed hurts
now we get all this working and YR comes up with timing
I guess when we slotted the main saddles and fed from the side we were somehow addressing timing as well as getting a better hydrodynamic wedge for the mains
listening
never done 8500 in a SBM never had the heads to feed that
Click to expand...
Here's a good article by King bearings on slotting the oil holes
ElliptiX™ Oil Hole of New Design for High Performance Bearings [SubsTech]
 
Duane
many years ago
we figured the oil feed at the top was where the bearing had the most clearance and thus the most leaks
we used the line bore to cut a slot in the saddle then drilled the main at the parting line
simple as that
there is extra clearance at the parting line so good place to make hydrodynamic wedge we were using half groove bearings and cross drilled cranks (I know I know)
Then Vandervall
That link Krooser put up is a wealth of hints
does not everyone check to see if their bearings oil holes match the feeds in the block?
drill (I ream) the block feeds to 9/32 and match the oil holes?
deburr and lay back the oil holes in the bearings
Looks Like King would save a lot of work
 
"Velocity"? "Slow the flow so it doesn't blow past the passage"?

Assuming the basic first step of a tube or bushings - sealing up the right galley at the #1 saddle (plug the left galley feed), and providing a sufficient pressurized feed to the front of the right galley should eliminate any "oil rushing past the passage" issues and deadhead the oil in that galley with no where for it to go except to the mains. The oil to the cam bearings is easily controlled so that the mains receive the full benefit of this supply.

Creating another "leak" to slow the flow doesn't make sense. Years ago, when I first tackled this, a picture and explanation of the crossover left me scratching my head.

A quick look at an OE cast 340 crank shows the mains having a single hole for each rod journal. These holes are drilled straight through the crank and as a result, the passage lines up with the feed in the main saddle when the rod journal is very near BDC. A quick look at the information from several aftermarket crank companies shows they are also using "straight shot" rod oiling as the best method. I do not have any of those cranks here to look at to see how they are clocked, but it appears the only real way to ensure 360 degree oil the rod is by using a full groove main bearing - and keeping the right galley full of solid oil under pressure.

A quick search shows conversations about problems arising from crossdrilled cranks where the passage is not a straightshot through the crank at high RPM. And the use of 1/2 vs. 3/4 vs. full groove bearings being a balance between relative surface area and oil supply to the rod. This quote sums it up "It's surface area of the bearing versus "clock time" of oil sent to the rods. Pick your favorite based on the comparative demands or likelihood of failure based upon testing or experience."
 
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MAc I never had exceptional problems with a cross drilled crank and half grooved bearings
IMHO the oil has nowhere to centrifuga out to (the bottom bearing shell being solid)
but did have issues with cross drilled cranks and full grooved bearings
anyone else dremel a NACA duct leading the crank hole? aka "teardrop" with the drop being the hole?
 
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