Need big block help.

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Gonzales265

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So here is the deal i just picked up a 78' 440 big block out of a class c motor home with 17,000 miles. my question is that this is my first big block build and i have never dealt with a motor home engine before i am on a budget i need help deciding what parts to replace and what to get to get this motor burning the asphalt. When i bought the motor the guy also threw in a weiand tunnel ram intake with dual edelbrock 750s that he had on his 69' charger 440. Can you guys please help me compose a parts list that will help me get the most out this engine with out having to do a complete rebuild. This motor will be going into a 70' Dodge Dart. I appreciate any and all help as this is my first big block build and i know that many of you have done this longer than i have been alive so any help would be great.


Thanks
 
First thing. Sell the tunnel ram and carbs.
 
To keep the budget as reasonable as you can spend only where you have to
to get the engine installed and running.
With the low mileage the engine has on it it should be able to be counted on for many fun miles as is.
The basic have to have items would be engine mounts and headers or manifolds.
You have a few choices on both these items.
The c body spool mount and 73 up v8 k member modification has always seemed to work out the most economical for me. This really only holds true if you can weld or have a buddy that can do the welding for you
Otherwise conversion mounts may be better for you. I always considered them kind of pricey for engine mounts but they are very popular with the majority.
Headers or manifolds is not cheap regardless of which route you take. The best thing to do here is watch the for sale adds and be patient for a rare bargain.
It is likely B-body HP manifolds is the cheapest choice as they can be bought on average for
300. They do fit with some effort.
Used fender well headers come up for sale often but require some big holes cut in your inner fenders to install. They are really a race only part and limit steering travel, tire size and ground clearance.
TriY or TTI headers don't come around used much and wouldn't normally considered
budget parts. These are the best or easiest options though.
Hope you got the transmission with the engine. Big blocks have a different bell housing
bolt pattern than the other engines.
Larger radiator a must. Good used are reasonable.
That engine will make your dart a completely different car.
I personally think the tunnel ram would be better on a higher compression engine
but 440s do run well with them. Never cared for the edelbrock carbs though.
 
ssba said:
To keep the budget as reasonable as you can spend only where you have to
to get the engine installed and running.
With the low mileage the engine has on it it should be able to be counted on for many fun miles as is.
The basic have to have items would be engine mounts and headers or manifolds.
You have a few choices on both these items.
The c body spool mount and 73 up v8 k member modification has always seemed to work out the most economical for me. This really only holds true if you can weld or have a buddy that can do the welding for you
Otherwise conversion mounts may be better for you. I always considered them kind of pricey for engine mounts but they are very popular with the majority.
Headers or manifolds is not cheap regardless of which route you take. The best thing to do here is watch the for sale adds and be patient for a rare bargain.
It is likely B-body HP manifolds is the cheapest choice as they can be bought on average for
300. They do fit with some effort.
Used fender well headers come up for sale often but require some big holes cut in your inner fenders to install. They are really a race only part and limit steering travel, tire size and ground clearance.
TriY or TTI headers don't come around used much and wouldn't normally considered
budget parts. These are the best or easiest options though.
Hope you got the transmission with the engine. Big blocks have a different bell housing
bolt pattern than the other engines.
Larger radiator a must. Good used are reasonable.
That engine will make your dart a completely different car.
I personally think the tunnel ram would be better on a higher compression engine
but 440s do run well with them. Never cared for the edelbrock carbs though.
Click to expand...

sell the tunnel ram and buy a perfmer rpm, or torquer, or torquer 2. the worst ports on a torquer 2 will outflow your stock heads. there were a set of used under the chassis headers on here. probably need a cam too, motor home cams can`t be too good for a street car.:coffee2:
 
Take some time to read through this, it will give you some idea of what you can do with a motorhome engine. There are better options than the 509 cam we used, but it was laying around and never going to be used so threw it in to see what would happen.

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=249866&highlight=1972+440

This will not answer all your questions, but it may help some.
 
I appreciate the help so far guys as far as the engine I want to aim for some where in the ball park of 450 to 500 HP. I know that the rv motor has low compression I am budgeting for a set of heads, cam and a few misc. Upgrades I am wondering as to why a few have suggested to sell tunnel ram and carbs I like the setup had a friends had that had that setup would like to utilize it if I can again all help appreciated.
 
Your budget is what will determine how well matched the components you use will be.
The more you optimize parts to complement each other the more it will cost. (more parts)
I know when I built my first big block dart the information available was limited to
the old Mopar bulletins that didn't help a bunch. Numbers of parts that wernt available.
Things have changed a lot. You now have companies supplying parts that weren't available then.
If your budget is thin like mine was when I built my first 440 dart. You can optimize
later as you have the money. It was enough for me at the time working my first job at minimum wage (2.65 hr) to just get the car together and stay together. This was my daily then.
I found out right away how much more important it was to have a strong rear axel and driveshaft vs a high lift cam. Disc brakes were more important than aluminum hi rise intake. A larger radiator was needed more than mag wheels. A 110 mig welder was the best money I spent on my 440 dart.
These are the kind of lessons I learned on my first car. This may be outdated info to some
extent today but I believe it is the manditory foundation to build up from for a guy just starting out.
Is the motor home engine optimal as is? No. Will it get you down the road ripping the tread
off the tires. Effortlessly.
I do hope your budget allows more than mine did on my first car. If it doesn't it still can be done if you put your money in the most needed areas to get the car moving under the power of your 440.
 
Gonzales265 said:
I appreciate the help so far guys as far as the engine I want to aim for some where in the ball park of 450 to 500 HP. I know that the rv motor has low compression I am budgeting for a set of heads, cam and a few misc. Upgrades I am wondering as to why a few have suggested to sell tunnel ram and carbs I like the setup had a friends had that had that setup would like to utilize it if I can again all help appreciated.
Click to expand...


A tunnel ram with dual quads on a low compression engine, naturally aspirated, its way over kill and you can make more power with just a single plane or dual plan, single quad set up. Plus what you'd get by selling the tunnel ram would get you enough money for the cam, intake if you sell one of the carbs, more if you sell both if you go with a different carb.

If I were you, I'd look heavily into IQ52's work with low compression, high flow heads. He's getting very good power with low buck go fast parts. I'm not an expert by any means, but I agree with his theory that to power you need 3 things, Cylinder Heads, Cylinder Heads, Cylinder Heads
 
If I was going to use the tunnel ram on a street car I would go with a solid lifter cam
525 lift or bigger. Stay under 300° duration. Holley carbs. If you haven't done much
engine or carb tuning read up to get a handle on it.
I like the tunnel rams myself and have found tuning holley carbs is easier than
working with the edelbrocks.
You would likely do better to get the car up and running first with a single carb
intake if this is your first build.
 
I would takeIQ52's advice. That's the route I'm going with my Dart. (IQ, what cams are better?) He knows what he is doing. If you plan to sell the edelbrocks let me know, I'd be interested. Keep the tunnel ram for garage art or sell it. (To me cheap!)

As for the transmission, you will need the longer car tail shaft if the motor home one has the stubby with it.

I used Schumacher conversion mounts and would use them again. It's money but saves time and they work. Be patient for headers and you can find a deal. Someone is always switching to something different. Post a wanted ad, and check the for sale ads.
 
I have numorous big block heads. You might convince me to give you a pair if you can figure out what you want. I have no idea what heads you have. They may be the ones with the extra cooling holes drilled in them. If you use that type get the right gasket.
 
You can build a 440 to make the kinda power you're lookin for "fallin outta bed" as crackedback would say.
 
I have a `74 cast crank low comp 440 in my Duster (Shumacher engine mounts). Here`s what`s been done and the plan moving forward: .030 overbore with Mopar Performance piston kit, ProParts partial fenderwell headers, MSD ignition, Griffin 29 inch radiator w/ dual fans. Plan: Have a set of 440 Source heads milled to 75cc`s by Hughes Engines with port work (not full CNC) by Hughes and me. 3 angle valve job also by Hughes. Replacing Weiand single plane and 750 Dominator carb with Eddy RPM Performer dual plane and probably a Mighty Demon or Holley 850 HP square bore carb. Likely going with a Comp or Lunati hydraulic cam kit - strongly considering the Comp 285 with .545 lift. Car has 727 manual valve body, 9 1/2 " 3500 Dynamic converter, 489 casing 8 3/4 inch rear with either 391 or 410 gears going in. 29" MT drag radials on it now, probably stay with those. Any opinions on this plan welcome, particularly carb and cam selection......
 
Sorry guys for not replying its been a few rough days at work. Anyway I started to disassemble the engine I have 452 heads now I have heard people liking these heads for the hardened seats and bigger valves... Is this something work looking further into maybe a port and polish, what if I also have a machine shop mill them down a few 10 thousandths to increase compression? Or do I just hang on to them and look to aluminum heads? Keep in mind I still want to use the tunnel ram intake with dual quads. As soon as I have a moment I will post pics of the engine as soon as I can thanks for all the help
 
car craft feb. 2001 had steve dulcich with a 12:1 440 and ported closed chamber 1967 915 heads and a 260*/258* @ .050" Comp roller cam on the dyno with 2 different intakes. I know this is more radical than what u are planning, and to get a decent comp. ratio u would need to cut the open chamber heads a ton, but everyone hang with me for a minute, the article title was "the tunnel ram lives". so it idled at 800 rpm, with a holley street dominator and an 830 carb it made 621hp at 6200 and 577 torque at 4900. with a weiand tunnel ram and 2 750 carbs it made 667 hp at 6500 and 623 torque at 5100, and 513 torque at 3000 rpm-the best low end of 3 induction setups tested
 
"First build", "low compression", "street" just seems like making things very hard on yourself with a tunnel ram and a lot of carb. If you really want to keep the tunnel ram, I'd dump the 750's for 500's trying to get some vacuum signal. Dyno numbers are great, but throttle response is important for street driving. Large plenums, long runners and large carbs is not a recipe for good throttle response.

You can deck the 452 heads .050 and have the intake face cut .060 to maintain manifold alignment, this "should" take a 452 chamber to around 80cc's, which will buy you a little more compression. If this is economically sound depends on the costs of machine work in your area. Often the costs of getting iron heads properly sorted out is about the same or more than just buying a set of 440 source or eddie heads. With the TFS heads coming out, there will be some ppl moving up and selling their source and eddie heads. Often used parts are junk, but new parts need to be checked too. S/F.....Ken M
 
EchoSixMike said:
"First build", "low compression", "street" just seems like making things very hard on yourself with a tunnel ram and a lot of carb. If you really want to keep the tunnel ram, I'd dump the 750's for 500's trying to get some vacuum signal. Dyno numbers are great, but throttle response is important for street driving. Large plenums, long runners and large carbs is not a recipe for good throttle response.

You can deck the 452 heads .050 and have the intake face cut .060 to maintain manifold alignment, this "should" take a 452 chamber to around 80cc's, which will buy you a little more compression. If this is economically sound depends on the costs of machine work in your area. Often the costs of getting iron heads properly sorted out is about the same or more than just buying a set of 440 source or eddie heads. With the TFS heads coming out, there will be some ppl moving up and selling their source and eddie heads. Often used parts are junk, but new parts need to be checked too. S/F.....Ken M
Click to expand...


Very well said.

I agree. I've not personally ran a tunnel ram on the street but have been around guys who have. Tunnel rams run best on high winding, high compression engines. They make their bread and butter in the higher rpm range. I personally wouldnt want to run a tunnel ram under 11:1 compression minimum, which would put you into running high octane fuel, not easily found at the local gas stations. I know the tunnel rams I've been around, tend to have to tuned to run rich down low to run well up high. Which is not good for a street engine. But ultimately, it's your money and your decision, I just dont think its the best idea for a street engine.
 
Marcohotrod said:
car craft feb. 2001 had steve dulcich with a 12:1 440 and ported closed chamber 1967 915 heads and a 260*/258* @ .050" Comp roller cam on the dyno with 2 different intakes. I know this is more radical than what u are planning, and to get a decent comp. ratio u would need to cut the open chamber heads a ton, but everyone hang with me for a minute, the article title was "the tunnel ram lives". so it idled at 800 rpm, with a holley street dominator and an 830 carb it made 621hp at 6200 and 577 torque at 4900. with a weiand tunnel ram and 2 750 carbs it made 667 hp at 6500 and 623 torque at 5100, and 513 torque at 3000 rpm-the best low end of 3 induction setups tested
Click to expand...

I'd like to see the dyno charts on that. Course, 12:1 is right where Tunnel Rams love to live, so I'm not surprised by the numbers. But I'd bet on the fact that same tunnel ram wouldn't work too well on an engine with 25% less compression
 
OK i have a Question all you guys that are telling the op to not run the tunnel ram, have you guys ran one your self? i ask because i built a 73 low compression 440 with a set of home ported 906 heads, mopar m1 tunnel-ram with 2 box stock 750 edlebrock carbs, mopar 292-509 cam, headman 1-3/4 headers a no name 3500 stall and 4.30 gears.In my 3600 pound 65 Plymouth B-body it would run 11.60 in the 1/4 and on the street torque was no problem. the car was blast to drive on the street.the tunnel-ram ran a lot better than the single plane edlebrock torquer and the 750 Holley DP i had on it first. also there is nothing wrong with the edelbrock 750 carbs. those same carbs with just a jet
change on a 12.1 compression 440 would run 10.50 at 126 all day long. I guess what i am trying to say is the op already has the intake and carbs, i say try it out and see how the car runs. if it doesn't run like how he thinks it should then i would sell it and get something else.Its not costing him nothing to try it. Mopar65
 
I vote for the single 4 bbl setup, using just factory mopar parts/solid cam you can easily overpower the car, let the big bore/short stroke (torque) do all the dirty work for you...it will.
 
I Agree, RUN the damned tunnel ram, and dual Eddies... just because he HAS them...... then if he thinks after a time of running as he HAS parts for it, and would like something different, THEN and ONLY THEN, invest in something else! But I say if ya GOT it.........RUN IT! WHY spend more $$$$$ when ya already have something to start......? Only change if its NOT to your liking AFTER you tried it. Don't kick it till ya try it first!

As I was always told, "Choose the road less traveled on", ya might surprise yerself!

I would LOVE a "440" in my '67 W-200, BUT I ain't got one, nor do I want to invest in one due to the 383 I have, RUNS!
 
That is true, it doesn't cost him anything to try other than time, maybe some gaskets. In that case, first money I'd spend is some decent headers that fit & exhaust, assuming the rest of the driveline is OK. Is this going to be 727 or 4 speed? What gears in the Dart? 8 & 3/4" rear?

I guess the important questions are: "what is the budget", "what are your resources" and "what is the purpose?" What someone wants to tolerate for a weekend street beater is different than what somebody will tolerate when they need to drive it to work on occasion. Another question, was the RV still in use, driving around, when you got the engine?

Per Mr Leroy's dyno testing, you got plenty of carb and manifold staying with the TR, get the exhaust sorted then look at a cam. For many cams you're also looking at new springs, retainers and locks. How do the valves look? How many are still straight? How many clean up with any margin left? I've been puttering with 4 sets of 452 heads from 400's I've pulled down recently and I tossed every valve, but admittedly I wasn't really concerned about saving any. OK, so $200 for new SS valves, maybe save a little if you find a deal. Might as well go with the 2.14/1.81 valves, same money. Whatever a valve job is locally, have them do a 75 degree cut in the bowls then you can finish the bowls with a die grinder and some burrs. Guides might need K-liners. Get an estimate on machine work for the heads then you can make an informed decision if it's better for you to just buy source/eddie heads instead of redoing the 452's. Again, this is contingent on your resources, if you have a buddy with a machine shop or shop prices are low, the steel heads suddenly become a good deal. S/F.....Ken M
 
mopar65 said:
OK i have a Question all you guys that are telling the op to not run the tunnel ram, have you guys ran one your self?
Click to expand...

On my personal 440...no. My dad's street and strip cars and his drag car(chebbie ..gulp) as well as a couple buddies locally, yes. I've tuned with them. I've driven them, just not on a 440. I have driven a 408 stroker with a tunnel ram as well.

The reason I say what I do, is because I think the tunnel rams on a street car is way over kill. And at least on the ones I've been around, the amount of tuning and what it takes, I just don't think it works well on a street machine. however, every engine is different, one 440 built the exact same as another 440 down to the bolts, may very well react differently to a tunnel ram.

So if you have it, run it and if it works out awesomely for you, then that is great. :cheers:

However, my own experiences with them, I just can't recommend it. too much headache for no gain. But its merely my opinion, I'm no expert by any means. I wouldn't even pay 2 cents for my opinion either haha
 
dukeboy_318 said:
On my personal 440...no. My dad's street and strip cars and his drag car(chebbie ..gulp) as well as a couple buddies locally, yes. I've tuned with them. I've driven them, just not on a 440. I have driven a 408 stroker with a tunnel ram as well.

The reason I say what I do, is because I think the tunnel rams on a street car is way over kill. And at least on the ones I've been around, the amount of tuning and what it takes, I just don't think it works well on a street machine. however, every engine is different, one 440 built the exact same as another 440 down to the bolts, may very well react differently to a tunnel ram.

So if you have it, run it and if it works out awesomely for you, then that is great. :cheers:

However, my own experiences with them, I just can't recommend it. too much headache for no gain. But its merely my opinion, I'm no expert by any means. I wouldn't even pay 2 cents for my opinion either haha
Click to expand...

No problem on my end and i hope i did sound off like i was trying to be a dick. with the 2 edelbrock carbs all i did was pull them out of the box put them on the tunnerlam and set the idle.unless there was something wrong with my holley 750Dp, i could beleave how much better the car ran after the intake change. i mean after the intake change driving the 65 on there street i could not beleave how much more low end power the engine was making.Now i know i was not making 500 hp etc but for a junk yard motor i just threw togeather the car ran very good. i used to drive the 65 on the street all the time unless it was snowing.oh for got i also had to change out the idle jet springs. the car had no bog off the line etc. well i hope it works out for the op and if not then at least he can say he wouldnt know if he didnt try it. thanks Mopar65
 
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