harrisonm
Well-Known Member
Sorry. I missed the place where you said you were planning to use a solid lifter cam.
Need cam ideas for my 318 Duster
- Thread starter HP2
- Start date
-
I picked a Lunati 10200701 HFT for my 318 because it has **** compression, pistons 0.080 in the hole, untouched 675 heads. I wish I had gone with the 10200702.
You may want to try the 10200703.
@72bluNblu ran a 10200704, he has written about it, check what he's said on the subject.
I am not seeing these cams on the Lunati site anymore.
Edelbrock bought them out.
You may want to try the 10200703.
@72bluNblu ran a 10200704, he has written about it, check what he's said on the subject.
I am not seeing these cams on the Lunati site anymore.
Edelbrock bought them out.
Lunati is gone.
I agree.
Huh, did some digging... Looks like Lunati has been part of Elelbrock/Comp, for awhile. Just recently they nixed a whole bunch of Mopar related products from their store.
Sad, sad, sad.
Lunati Recognized As Edelbrock Group's Sixth Power Brand - Edelbrock Group
Tried looking up camshafts for LA or Magnum blocks... Nothing, I then tried Mopar in general.
This is all of it:
Sad
Sad, sad, sad.
Lunati Recognized As Edelbrock Group's Sixth Power Brand - Edelbrock Group
Tried looking up camshafts for LA or Magnum blocks... Nothing, I then tried Mopar in general.
This is all of it:
Sad
Nitrous....cheap horsepower
Just look on the Summit site for camshafts and then on the left scroll for brands. Lunati isn't even in the selection. For any application. They're gone.
The duration on those cams are in the ball park at 213/220 and the other is 220/226. Summit still has the specs listed. Its just a cam so I am sure you could buy something similar in another brand. As I and others have mentioned 220-230 duration will be max. based on intended use, compression, gearing and displacement. I would get a recommendation from a reputable cam mfg of your choice. It would be interesting to see what they come up with.
HP2
Well-Known Member
of course, how stupid of me! I stand corrected.
Milling the Eddy heads dow to 49cc sounds tough!(Use seat to seat or advertised specs for Intake spec for best results)
Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator 1)
° (Feet)
As for this cam; Hughes fails to publish those numbers, so you have to guess, by looking at other older obsolete grinds.
History shows that Hughes cams are "hi-intensity." or at least higher than some others.
Here's my attempt at converting this to advertised?
238/242/108 ....... This might be;
284/292 gross advertised; it might be a lil less, and lashing might take a few degrees but there is no way for me to guess what it would be, so at this stage, I'm not looking for super-accuracy. I just want to estimate the point when the Intake valve actually closes.
From those numbers, I can guess the overlap to be ~72 degrees. Giving 36* to the intake side I get
180 less {(360+36) less 284} = Ica of ~68* This would be at about Split overlap.
To get 190psi with an Ica of 68*, in a 318+020 @500 ft elevation will require an Scr of 11.9,
If you advance that to in at 66*, as in the example I previously explored, then the Scr becomes 11.7
the swept of this engine is ~665.7cc
To get 11.7;
665.7 ( CD-1)= Combustion chamber so;
665.7/10.7=62.2cc; TOTAL chamber size.
Therefore, to get the head volume;
62.2 less (deck, eyebrows, and gasket)=
62.2- (zero +5 +8.6)= 48.6cc maximum
and yur hoping the 039 FelPro is gonna hold.
I measured my used 039 FelPros and they were between 041 and 042. SCE have 019-021 gaskets, bot MLS and copper. Cost more but may be worth it?
I have been milling heads on Mopar small blocks before so I know it means a lot of work, but in the end I think it can be worth the hassle. They are still on so I can't measure how much it would be needed to take off.
You're probably in the ballpark and pretty much correct. I don't want a dog. Need at least 175 psi to get a fun car.
I'm still learning about cam profiles. Would it be possible to grind a cam with an earlier closing intake valve point, say to 30-35° ABDC, without changing the characteristics too much?
HP2
Well-Known Member
You people have opened my eyes. I had too high expectations and I stand corrected. However, I will still need the best cam grind I can get for my combo.
You are absolutely right about that, with a good ram effect with matched intake, runners, cam aso you will fill the cylinders better and get a higher CP.
HP2
Well-Known Member
The traffic where I drive is rarely intense so mostly around 45-60 MPH
StreetSleeper
Well-Known Member
Crane 693801 typed into summitracing
Crane Cams 693801 Crane Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshafts | Summit Racing
HP2
Well-Known Member
Lunati only have one Hemi cam now...
StreetSleeper
Well-Known Member
Rob can’t you get away with a smaller camshaft with better flowing cylinder heads?
HP2
Well-Known Member
Yeah, but I have to admit I'm a little scared to try, have never played with it lol. I will check and see what I've actually have and then do some research.
HP2
Well-Known Member
I need a tighter LSA
Not available
HP2
Well-Known Member
I checked what intakes I have:
1. Weiand Stealth, dual plane
2. Weiand 7545 X-celerator, single plane
3. Edelbrock Torker 340, single plane
I have a brand new (NOS) Thermoquad "muscle car" carb, I think Direct Connection sold them back in the 70's. It would be really cool to make it work on the 318. I could try my red QFT 750 DP electric choke but it might be a little big for good response. I didn't have time to go through all my boxes today. I think I have some spread bore carbs in there.
4.88’s are possible then!
Yes and no. The camshaft has RPM limitations. I chose the cam I did based on its rpm band and power potential for the task at hand. A smaller on by 4*’s could work. “Could!” IDK for sure.
While a better flowing cylinder head will allow more HP, sometimes you just need to bend a perfect set up to the available parts you have. The torque down low remains ether un-effected or lightly improved. This is airflow dependent among other things.
As the RPM climbs, there is a noticeable gain in upper RPM (HP) power. What is also nice with a better flowing head is it will extend the RPM range of the cam.
In example, I’m using a Hyd roller by Comp @ 224 intake with .534 lift, .534 / 1.5 X 1.6 =0.5738 (.574 rounded up) with trickflow heads.
(Check the various heads flow charts and see how well the heads flow against each other and where the airflow starts to level off. Notice the airflow differences between heads at the down below cams max lift.
The 1.6 rockers have an effect of adding a little bit of duration and add intensity to the valve as if the lobe was more aggressive. All of this has a positive effect on the incoming A/F charge.
I first used OOTB Edelbrock heads, (good performance) then went to the Maxx CNC Ported chink heads (better performance) then to the TF heads, a little bit better in performance. The difference between heads IS a noticeable difference by way of the eldest of the pants that can’t be missed. It’s not HUGE, but it’s noticeable.
Once you have the best head on top, then your limitation to more HP is obviously elsewhere. Carb, intake, exhaust and piping/mufflers, AND, of course, CID.
Where do we stop?
What are we able to work with or not?
Cam, carb, intake are the easiest big return parts on the power output unless stroking the engine which is not the case in this instance. So just maximize the air in and out with a camshaft performing in the rpm area your driving and add as much compression as possible, which is pump gas here. So, 11-1 static is about it. I’m at (IIRC) 11.3-1 now.
Very good intake. Est torque maker you have with what you’re working on. Home port it has deep as possible to line up with the heads. (Really the same for all intakes IMO.)
I e round these to be really good single plane intakes and should be used accordingly with camshafts. I would not really use these with what your working on.
I’d like you to be a good bit more specific on the exact TQ carb you have. If it were I that was building this, and the ET slip is t of the great concern, just street joy, I’d fully port the Weiand Stealth out from top to bottom and use the TQ on a 1/2 spacer (if you could find one. Transdapt (Manciniracing maybe) sell a 1 inch TQ open spacer. It’ll need a little work with a grinder to match the intake and the carb just right.
Our now passed member Pittsburghracer ported a M1 single and the TQ spacer for me specifically to use a TQ.
I’d try it. Any carb has to be tailored to work with what it’s going on.
OH! By the way, you can get a Cometic gasket to custom specs pretty darn thin. I have one by them at .028. Mr. Gasket also has .028 gaskets. This should help your compression problem a little bit and take away from such a heavy milling.
The closer to ideal is the goal but you may end up short on the endeavor. Even more so that you can get away with an 11-1 ratio.
I just think such a heavy milling is t really truly in the heads capability. Even if it is capable, is it really do-able and wise?
I ask this to be thought about because you’ll have to mill the intake to fit and that’s just NOT the head mating area but also the front and rear when they sit in the China wall. There is not a lot of meat there to mill.
Last edited:
That is one of THE best street cams ever made, IMO.
Why?
AJ/FormS
68 Formua-S fastback clone 367/A833/GVod/3.55s
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2014
- Messages
- 26,608
- Reaction score
- 13,849
If 45>60mph is yur target,
IMHO you may be going about this all wrong.
Consider what rpm you will be turning, then build your engine to make power at that rpm, not at mega-rpm where you might only be one time, and spinning so. At the top of first gear, who cares how much power you have if the tires are spinning......
With 3.91s and 28s, First gear(2.45) tops out at ~5500=43mph.
On the 1>2 shift the rpm drops to .592 x 5500=3250rpm, and so yur engine needs power at 3250 and NOT at 5500. 3250 is a tuff place to be, cuz most of the time, it's not ready for full-power timing yet, at least not with iron heads and open chambers. and Honestly, if I had that gearing problem and stuck with a 318, I would be very very careful.
Obviously 4.88s would be better, but with those, First gear is pretty useless. and hi-way cruising is out. That 1-2 split is just to big, and the only way around it is a high-stall TC.
IMO if yur gonna do something like this, I would stall it up quite a bit higher, and keep the 3.91s.
Or
go with 3.23s and get 60= about 6200 at the top of First-gear. To go 6200 your power-peak can be centered around 5700. With a torque peak around 4200, which might like a stall around 3400, for a One-gear car.
So, you get the idea.
Or
just bite the bullet and install a bigger engine which will inherently have more bottom end torque, allowing you to run less gear, and less cam.
Or do what I did, which was to install a 4-speed, which has a better 1>2 split(.72), for less Rpm drop on the 1>2 shift.
Well, actually I did both, lol. and now I can spin the the tires thru almost three gears, lol. That's not a brag, I'm just saying there comes a point where you get into traction issues; and there's no point in having all that power, just to put it into tiresmoke.
With a standard 2.66 low 4-speed, the 1>2 rpm drop is 72% which is from say 5600 to 4040, for a powerband requirement of just 1600, so now yur 318 does not need that big cam any more, for the same zero to 60 ET.
And a smaller cam will have an earlier-closing intake even, and so, a higher pressure. and now you can run a proper gear ratio combo, to hit 60 at a more advantageous rpm. and that means, you might get a hiway cruiser out of the deal.
So many ideas.
For this combo, alloy heads, just for the compression ratio, is IMO, not gonna make a big difference, because, in the first place alloy heads NEED more CCP just to break even with a good iron set. They say you need at least a half a point more with alloys, but in a Streeter, I think a FULL point would be more like it.
Then you have the 2.02 valve issue, as to shrouding, to deal with, and finally, if yur only gonna Power-peak at 5500, then you don't even need those big valves. Because, again, yur not gonna be at 5600 in Second@60mph, unless yur running 4.10s, and there goes your cruise-rpm again.
I went thru all this in 1999, and I figured it out real quick, that I would need a 5-Speed manual and a 360, to cover all the bases, to be able to use a small cam, running low-grade gas, and still be in the 12s which is fast enough for me. And still make fuel-economy that even 318 guys can't touch.
People call me a 318 hater, and this is why; Yur trying for BB results with an engine size that is just too small, IMO, for what you want it do.
I mean, if all you want to do with your 318, is one thing; like be real fast from zero to 60, OK I get it. Pressure it up, cam it up, stall it up, and gear it up, those are the right things to do.
But in the end, when you add up all those other costs, and see how focused your combo is, and how much gas it drinks just driving it around the block, and how nearly useless 4.88s are on the street, and the thought comes to you that you mightabin way happier with a bigger engine,
please don't hate me, lol.
One more time, consider your trans and rear gears, and build to the gears.
As to headgaskets
Your results may vary, but not a chance would spend more than what the FellPros can do for you.
The point is, at zerodeck, you cannot run Piston to head clearance of .020 and not expect to break something. And there is no need to go that extreme.
Like I said earlier, your swept area is just too small to go for the big pressure numbers, with the cam that you have in mind..
IMHO you may be going about this all wrong.
Consider what rpm you will be turning, then build your engine to make power at that rpm, not at mega-rpm where you might only be one time, and spinning so. At the top of first gear, who cares how much power you have if the tires are spinning......
With 3.91s and 28s, First gear(2.45) tops out at ~5500=43mph.
On the 1>2 shift the rpm drops to .592 x 5500=3250rpm, and so yur engine needs power at 3250 and NOT at 5500. 3250 is a tuff place to be, cuz most of the time, it's not ready for full-power timing yet, at least not with iron heads and open chambers. and Honestly, if I had that gearing problem and stuck with a 318, I would be very very careful.
Obviously 4.88s would be better, but with those, First gear is pretty useless. and hi-way cruising is out. That 1-2 split is just to big, and the only way around it is a high-stall TC.
IMO if yur gonna do something like this, I would stall it up quite a bit higher, and keep the 3.91s.
Or
go with 3.23s and get 60= about 6200 at the top of First-gear. To go 6200 your power-peak can be centered around 5700. With a torque peak around 4200, which might like a stall around 3400, for a One-gear car.
So, you get the idea.
Or
just bite the bullet and install a bigger engine which will inherently have more bottom end torque, allowing you to run less gear, and less cam.
Or do what I did, which was to install a 4-speed, which has a better 1>2 split(.72), for less Rpm drop on the 1>2 shift.
Well, actually I did both, lol. and now I can spin the the tires thru almost three gears, lol. That's not a brag, I'm just saying there comes a point where you get into traction issues; and there's no point in having all that power, just to put it into tiresmoke.
With a standard 2.66 low 4-speed, the 1>2 rpm drop is 72% which is from say 5600 to 4040, for a powerband requirement of just 1600, so now yur 318 does not need that big cam any more, for the same zero to 60 ET.
And a smaller cam will have an earlier-closing intake even, and so, a higher pressure. and now you can run a proper gear ratio combo, to hit 60 at a more advantageous rpm. and that means, you might get a hiway cruiser out of the deal.
So many ideas.
For this combo, alloy heads, just for the compression ratio, is IMO, not gonna make a big difference, because, in the first place alloy heads NEED more CCP just to break even with a good iron set. They say you need at least a half a point more with alloys, but in a Streeter, I think a FULL point would be more like it.
Then you have the 2.02 valve issue, as to shrouding, to deal with, and finally, if yur only gonna Power-peak at 5500, then you don't even need those big valves. Because, again, yur not gonna be at 5600 in Second@60mph, unless yur running 4.10s, and there goes your cruise-rpm again.
I went thru all this in 1999, and I figured it out real quick, that I would need a 5-Speed manual and a 360, to cover all the bases, to be able to use a small cam, running low-grade gas, and still be in the 12s which is fast enough for me. And still make fuel-economy that even 318 guys can't touch.
People call me a 318 hater, and this is why; Yur trying for BB results with an engine size that is just too small, IMO, for what you want it do.
I mean, if all you want to do with your 318, is one thing; like be real fast from zero to 60, OK I get it. Pressure it up, cam it up, stall it up, and gear it up, those are the right things to do.
But in the end, when you add up all those other costs, and see how focused your combo is, and how much gas it drinks just driving it around the block, and how nearly useless 4.88s are on the street, and the thought comes to you that you mightabin way happier with a bigger engine,
please don't hate me, lol.
One more time, consider your trans and rear gears, and build to the gears.
As to headgaskets
at zero-deck and closed chambers, your compressed gasket thickness becomes your Quench. This dimension must be large enough that at rpm and hot, the pistons do not bang into the head, bt not more than what will create detonation for you. Most guys target .040. Brave Dumbazzes like me push envelope down to .028, and I got away with it.
Your results may vary, but not a chance would spend more than what the FellPros can do for you.
The point is, at zerodeck, you cannot run Piston to head clearance of .020 and not expect to break something. And there is no need to go that extreme.
Like I said earlier, your swept area is just too small to go for the big pressure numbers, with the cam that you have in mind..
Last edited:
There's so many false assertion here don't even know where to start. Why do you insist on shitting on everyone that wants to build a 318, we get it you don't think there a good platform to build power from.
Does a Smaller engine generally make less power at similar rpms (powerband) as a larger engine yes and everyone knows that, if you want a smaller to make similar power as the larger engine it got to spin higher basically the cid percentage difference and or be more efficient. If the OP is fine with that why can't you guys?
The dudes engine is only 17 cid (5%) smaller than a 340 it's gonna behave similar.
-
Similar threads
