Nevermind, lets just do it all the same way.

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Badart

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Here is a conversion anyone can do to help eliminate bump steer with the stock steering setup. I have done conversions like this on lifted heavy off-road trucks trucks running 37" tires and have had no problems. All of these pics of of the suspension sitting 1.5" lower than stock and the coilover compressed with 1" of travel left. All of these parts are ordered from Speedway motors and cost around $100 for both sides. I will post a parts list later if people are interested. The only modification that you will have to do is drill out the tapered rod end hole on your center link to take a 5/8" Grade 8 bolt and the chromoly rod end. Here are a few pics to entertain you till then.
 

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How do you check bump steer with an angle finder? we allways unload the torsion bar, and set up a dial indicator system on the hub, and run it up and down throughout the suspension travel, checking for toe change during compression and rebound....
 
64 SRT8 Dart said:
Oh, come on now, just after I bought my PST stuff, really!! LOL
Looks awesome man!!
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I thought that I gave you warning. :D A guy could also flip this, which I may end up doing anyway to allow more ground clearance, but may interfere with header clearance, but will keep you posted.
 
replicaracer43 said:
How do you check bump steer with an angle finder? we allways unload the torsion bar, and set up a dial indicator system on the hub, and run it up and down throughout the suspension travel, checking for toe change during compression and rebound....
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That's a good question, but you have to admit that this will eliminate most of it. You are removing 10 degrees of angle from the tie rod setup. I'm sure that it is not as precise as your method, but will give you an idea. I'm sure that there will still be a little bump steer, but nothing compared to the factory setup. My display in the pictures is level.
 
My car is stone stock parts except for poly bushings and big tie-rods, and I don't have any bump steer.

The steering does change some as the wheel travels through the suspension arc, but mine changes opposite-and-equally on both sides, so there's no bump steer, just like the factory intended.
 
replicaracer43 said:
How do you check bump steer with an angle finder? we allways unload the torsion bar, and set up a dial indicator system on the hub, and run it up and down throughout the suspension travel, checking for toe change during compression and rebound....
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Ditto, and don't forget to check it in all combinations of jounce and rebound throughout the range of steering all the way out to both full right and left lock.

Also, although the rod end/bolt arrangement has the possibility of up and down adjustability, you may find shimming of the steering box mounting bolts and changing the angle of the idler arm by slotting/washering the mount (making the mount adjustable by cutting it loose from the K frame and using a bolt/shim arrangement to mount it to the K instead would be another way of skinning the same cat) still necessary to come close to zero bump.

And while I'm aware the Furd/Chivey crowd (and racer types of other persuasions) commonly use them (rod ends/bolts) for this purpose, with the forces involved here, I can't help but wonder if a rod end hanging down on a length of bolt shaft in single shear (even spacered/shimmed) would be prone to flexing/breaking, and still prefer the security/accuracy of the stock type tapered stud arrangement.
 
twofosho said:
Ditto, and don't forget to check it in all combinations of jounce and rebound throughout the range of steering all the way out to both full right and left lock.

Also, although the rod end/bolt arrangement has the possibility of up and down adjustability, you may find shimming of the steering box mounting bolts and changing the angle of the idler arm by slotting/washering the mount (making the mount adjustable by cutting it loose from the K frame and using a bolt/shim arrangement to mount it to the K instead would be another way of skinning the same cat) still necessary to come close to zero bump.

And while I'm aware the Furd/Chivey crowd (and racer types of other persuasions) commonly use them (rod ends/bolts) for this purpose, with the forces involved here, I can't help but wonder if a rod end hanging down on a length of bolt shaft in single shear (even spacered/shimmed) would be prone to flexing/breaking, and still prefer the security/accuracy of the stock type tapered stud arrangement.
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For what it is worth the Alter-K from RMS uses a single shear on the rod ends off of the rack....I would think the quality of the rod end here is going to VERY important. A buddy fabs off road Desert trucks, he does all of the steering linkage he fabs from scratch as double shear, but the steering on an off road truck sees a crap load more stress than a street car ever will....
 
Exactly Doug. A single shear setup is adequate as long as the hardware is good. These rod ends are chromoly. I will document and post my findings on the bump steer over the next couple of days while I work on the adjustable strut rod that will match this. Ladies like gold right? :D
 
We are kind of limited on options with the factory setup and would take building a from scratch a complete front suspension. Of course this is an ideal setup where uppers, lowers and tie rod all all on a plane to having a single intersecting point. If you are claiming no bump steer and running a factory setup then I am missing something.
 

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Bump steer is simply the differences in the arcs that the lower control arm creates when cycled, and the arc the steering linkage creates when the suspension is cycled. If these arcs are close to one another, in radius and vertical location, the car will have near zero bump steer. As jos says...these cars do not suffer from bump steer really. Chrysler did a great job of getting the correct geometry in this aspect.
The concept of the heim being in single shear is one that could go back and forth forever. Is double shear better? Of course. On the other hand, I have seen people with the heim spaced away from the steering knuckle 2.5+", in a single shear setup...DEFINITELY not good. If the spacing is minimal, single shear would probably be fine.
Now Im sure everyone will start arguing about whether a heim joint is suitable for street driving...that can go on forever as well.
 
Shoot think about our street driving. Most guys in this hobby brag about their street car they drive ALL the time when in fact they are only putting maybe 1000 Miles per year on the car....
On another note they make a Heim that has a zirk fitting in it so it can be greased. I'll find it and post it. Then someone will have something to say about that.

I think the set up is pretty cool... I don't see anyone else making or fabricating anything for anyone or even themselves, except the stuff that comes hot off their key board.
 
Believe me, I have sat back and laughed plenty of times about the fact that no matter what people do to better their car, or make good products, everyone has something negative to say about it. This forum is VERY bad for that in particular.
On another note, I am in no way saying anything negative about John, and the product looks very appealing. I was just wondering about the concept.
Oh...and I have shown some things I have fabricated and built!!!! LOL. Keep with it John.
 
Not talking about the Doer's Kyle..... Come on now! Talking about the guys that don't do anything but run their mouths...... or keyboard that is.
 
Badart said:
Exactly Doug. A single shear setup is adequate as long as the hardware is good. These rod ends are chromoly. I will document and post my findings on the bump steer over the next couple of days while I work on the adjustable strut rod that will match this. Ladies like gold right? :D
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I wasn't questioning the quality of the rod ends you intended using, but rather playing devil's advocate about the design and metallurgy of an unsupported bolt shaft subjected to the stresses involved. I know the Mustang tuners have used such an arrangement as a solution to bumpsteer problems induced by their suspension modifications for a while now. With the right materials, spacers, and torque, it's probably a non issue. Or is it?
 
replicaracer43 said:
How do you check bump steer with an angle finder? we allways unload the torsion bar, and set up a dial indicator system on the hub, and run it up and down throughout the suspension travel, checking for toe change during compression and rebound....
Click to expand...

I agree. Exactly. That is how you check bump steer.


Badart said:
Here is a conversion anyone can do to help eliminate bump steer with the stock steering setup. .....
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How bad was the stock bump steer with stock parts when you measured it starting at ride height ?

I have a stock geometry setup with a Hotchkis TVS kit on my Barracuda. I have measured it with a real Bump Steer Gauge. I got 1/16" toe out in at 3 inches of Bump/Compression. And 1/8" toe in in at 3 inches Jounce/Extension. Thats real good without adjustments at 3" extension/compression that is more than it would see in most any cornering situations.

I don't think the Hotchkis tie rods alter the bump steer very much. I think the pivot points are close to the same place. But I have not measured the bump steer with stock tie rods.
 

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Thanks AutoX cuda I have not yet measured the amount of bump steer with a stock setup with a dial indicator at full travel, but I just came in from the shop where my Dart has a rebuilt and aligned factory front suspension with the torsion bars backed off and I could see the movement with my eyes. I don't need a dial indicator for that. I have all of the equipment to read bump steer, just will take time to set it all up to check it.

I actually got the idea from another member here showing me the Hotchkis steering rod kit for $368. This setup is the same thing. Look at it guys It's a single shear setup!!!!!! I'm sure AutoX cuda's car gets hammered on and it has survived. The only with this one is the center link gets drilled out to 5/8 and the center link gets flipped to the bottom to help level it out. A guy could have a 7 degree tapered adapter made or find one so he wouldn't have to drill anything. All of this stuff moves in an arch look at the pic and think about it. Which one will have less lateral movement?????? I am only doing this to help members out here to save a few bucks. I am not making any money on this, actually I'm losing money, because I bought these parts just for mock up.

I am getting tired of the same crap on every thread that I have. This is kind of the straw that broke me. I guess that I will just work on my own stuff for a while. It is becoming more and more difficult to do these threads with the keyboard commandos out there that enjoy thrashing threads, because everyone should do it one way and anything else is crap. I am not pointing to this thread in particular, it's all of them. I could rant on for a while about this, but don't think I will. I will be around to check my personal messages and answer questions and that is it for a while.
 
Is it just my imagination or is your original tie rod adjuster bent/twisted? In the picture it looks like it angles up at a different angle at the end of the outer tie rod. That by itself might cause some fun bump steer.

Your setup is nice and clean looking. Do they make adaptor that fits the taper and allow you to bolt a rod end to a factory lbj?
 
Badart, keep up the good work, I enjoy seeing your new stuff and your progress, good to see affordable products for our a-body cars! :glasses7:
 
this is really neat . i like this idea. i dont know how much lower than stock i am, maybe an inch or 2, but not too much. when i rebuilt my front end i used the firm feel units in the 11/16 size. they still use a tie rod end. but are a nice piece. i do like this setup as well, and once ya get everything figured out, i definitely want a set. keep up the nice work. i commend you on all the hard work you do!
 
Nice to see someone building there own stuff. Instead of running to pst or hotchkis or whoever else and paying a ridiculous amount of cash.

Good on you Badart.....Hopefully your system works well for you.
 
Keep up the good work John,nevermind the naysayers.A good product made by a member..for the members is all good in my books.Stay at it!!:D
 
Apparently nobody has bothered to look at the Alter-ktion, which is single shear in the pictures I have looked at.....
 
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