........ So this leaves the street crowd, that don’t understand the old saying of it ain’t broke don’t fix it…
Ohhhh....we understand perfectly.
........ So this leaves the street crowd, that don’t understand the old saying of it ain’t broke don’t fix it…
Besides cars, I'm sure there were lots of cool things that came out in 1970. Just like cars and all those things, I'm sure they have improved in 55 years. People worked with what they had back then and even now. I have a hard time understanding why people think technology from 55 years ago is the best thing on earth.I mean Buddy baker drove the first over 200 mph lap in I believe 1970, with a 4500lb car, manual steering, manual drum brakes, and with bias ply slicks with torsion bars and leaf springs. The suspension shown here would fold up like a pretzel under the g force loads he experienced.
Why do you assume vintage trans am racing is the only form of racing people do with these cars? Plenty of us on the autocross and road course having fun with our car vs sitting a lawn chair behind it.Those strut towers need some more triangulation. Since the car and driving load is moved to the tower, the amount of force pushing on those towers, with an almost vertical back, I could see the tower folding up in a short order.
As NC engine noted about racing, aftermarket style suspensions are not allowed in the Vintage TransAm racing clubs. So this leaves the street crowd, that don’t understand the old saying of it ain’t broke don’t fix it…
I know it is not the only type of traveling at speed experience. The Hill-Billys pulling the lawn chair just want to have fun and not waste a **** ton of beer money on the front suspension of a beater A body they just pulled out the field. And the old farts sitting in lawn chairs, they are not driving anyways. Truly, reading all these coil over thread, I’ve not seen anyone post a major driving improvement from a coil over conversion compared to a well sorted stock style setup. To each their own…. With a lighter pocketbook…Why do you assume vintage trans am racing is the only form of racing people do with these cars? Plenty of us on the autocross and road course having fun with our car vs sitting a lawn chair behind it.
Why do you assume vintage trans am racing is the only form of racing people do with these cars? Plenty of us on the autocross and road course having fun with our car vs sitting a lawn chair behind it.
Truly, reading all these coil over thread, I’ve not seen anyone post a major driving improvement from a coil over conversion compared to a well sorted stock style setup. To each their own…. With a lighter pocketbook…
And I'll add that I really like my HDK setup. And yes, I did spend a lot of time adjusting it to optimize it to my liking. I'm currently running 8+ degrees of caster and around 2 degrees of camber. I have just under a degree of camber gain in the first inch of bump and right at 1" in the second inch of bump. The addition of the custom splined sway bar makes the car feel like it has never before. I can easily take 90 degree turns at 40mph and its completely controlled. The reason I'm asking questions to the OP about the geometry is because I'd like to see where it lands compared to what I have done. No answer so far and I expect we won't get one, which is disappointing. The only guys that pay attention to that statement are the ones that understand it and are likely into some form of cornering performance motorsport. Drag racers don't care about that stuff.Racerjoe posted a thread about his setup before and after and with some work has done very well. Big long thread that turned into a bit of a turd slinger but I think it was a useful conversation. It is partly why I asked about some suspension plots from the OP as I would like to see some data instead of just “it’s improved”.
As far as I know, Joe is the only one that has ever sorted his TB suspension and then converted and sorted that one as well. Most go from a worn out stock suspension to an all new COC and marvel at how much better it is. No surprise there. But Joe actually put in the work. If memory serves, he went backwards with the COC but with his usual diligence and hard work, is now beyond what his TB setup was at. I think a TB setup could go beyond what Joe had before converting so I still don’t think a COC is the only way, and I am convinced that an out of the box COC is worse than a good TB setup.
I really don’t think this will get answered without 2 identical A-Bodies being built with both suspension types and being in the same place at the same time so the same driver can evaluate them back to back.
Racerjoe posted a thread about his setup before and after and with some work has done very well. Big long thread that turned into a bit of a turd slinger but I think it was a useful conversation. It is partly why I asked about some suspension plots from the OP as I would like to see some data instead of just “it’s improved”.
As far as I know, Joe is the only one that has ever sorted his TB suspension and then converted and sorted that one as well. Most go from a worn out stock suspension to an all new COC and marvel at how much better it is. No surprise there. But Joe actually put in the work. If memory serves, he went backwards with the COC but with his usual diligence and hard work, is now beyond what his TB setup was at. I think a TB setup could go beyond what Joe had before converting so I still don’t think a COC is the only way, and I am convinced that an out of the box COC is worse than a good TB setup.
I really don’t think this will get answered without 2 identical A-Bodies being built with both suspension types and being in the same place at the same time so the same driver can evaluate them back to back.
I don't remember Joe going backwards anytime, in fact, my memory had him up to speed right out of the gate. Of course, Joe being Joe, massaged it to HIS liking.
On a side note..... I bet it made his Gen III swap a whole lot easier.
Drag racers don't care about that stuff.
That was my assessment based on some of the changes he made during the course of improving things. I don't remember exactly what it was or how, but my conclusion was that at one point in the middle he was about in the same place he was with his TB setup. Thus, my conclusion was the he went backwards handling wise at the start.
Another example would be when Joe had to swap in extra long UBJ's to get the roll center better, I would again argue that he went backwards until he corrected some things. Maybe those are standard now, but it's not what he started with.
I do think he is beyond his old TB setup now. But I'm not sure I would agree that a TB suspension couldn't be equal.
I know he was pretty happy with the swap. I'm pretty happy with my Holley swap parts, too.
Still comes down to what you want and how much you want to spend. And they all have their drawbacks.
There are guys on here with cars MUCH faster than my avatar (11.0's) but I would tell you that for me, leaving straight and staying straight is what handling is all about. After getting the correct caster in the car, it does this and no longer veers off to the left when the tire comes down.I wonder if drag racers use the term "handling", but mean things like "it stays straight when the front tires touch back down". I could see bump steer being really important in that case while roll center and scrub radius are all non-issues.
Do you mean -2 degrees of camber?And I'll add that I really like my HDK setup. And yes, I did spend a lot of time adjusting it to optimize it to my liking. I'm currently running 8+ degrees of caster and around 2 degrees of camber. I have just under a degree of camber gain in the first inch of bump and right at 1" in the second inch of bump. The addition of the custom splined sway bar makes the car feel like it has never before. I can easily take 90 degree turns at 40mph and it’s completely controlled. The reason I'm asking questions to the OP about the geometry is because I'd like to see where it lands compared to what I have done. No answer so far and I expect we won't get one, which is disappointing. The only guys that pay attention to that statement are the ones that understand it and are likely into some form of cornering performance motorsport. Drag racers don't care about that stuff.
Yes, sorry. Most people in the handling world will understand its negative camber. I see no application where you would want to run any amount of positive camber.Do you mean -2 degrees of camber?
Lf of a left turning circle track car. lolYes, sorry. Most people in the handling world will understand its negative camber. I see no application where you would want to run any amount of positive camber.
I couldn’t think of a reason why someone would run positive camber on a road car, but then again these are old cars and there might have been something I wasn’t understanding.Yes, sorry. Most people in the handling world will understand its negative camber. I see no application where you would want to run any amount of positive camber.
Clearly I don't have a circle track car.Lf of a left turning circle track car. lol
Just poking fun. Example of an application that uses positive camber from the handling world. What kind of car do you have?Clearly I don't have a circle track car.
This one.Just poking fun. Example of an application that uses positive camber from the handling world. What kind of car do you have?
Very cool!
My only complaint with that setup would be the fact that the upper supports are bolted to the frame rails. If you're going that far, weld 'em in. Kinda like subframe connectors.I like the guy's suspension. I like ANY aftermarket Mopar products. But these guys should be ready from constructive criticism. And so far from what I've seen of those coil over uprights, the critics are right. Look at the difference between his coil over system and this. There's no comparison. This INCORPORATES the already strong factory pieces.
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fun fact....changing the ride height and / or tire diameter of your car changes roll center. In the world of car set-up, one size does not fit all. And to add a degree of difficulty to the set-up equation, what driver A likes in a set up, might not be even close to what driver B likes. Ever hear a racer get out of his teammates fast ride only to remark....I don't know how you drive that?
No secret, Joe could make a skate board fly,
… what car guys / racers like is adjustability and adaptability, which IMO, HDK affords both to the maximum.
I (we) get it, some just don't like rack and coil over conversions, regardless of any benefits.