Odd Suspension Issues

[PanzerschreckLeopard]

Looking under my car, I've noticed things that seem rather off. Mostly, there's the fact that the torsion bar bolt is vertical on passenger side, but the driver side is at a nearly 45* angle. In addition, the camber seems uneven. Does adjusting the torsion bar bolt affect camber? Cause I've done that since the last alignment. It almost looks bottomed out too...do I need to just crank the bolts up further and then get it re-aligned?

Also, are these sway bar mounts correct?

 

[RedFish]

I don't know whats wrong with torsion bars adjustment. I'll agree it don't look right. Those forward sway bar mounts aren't OEM. Originals were sort of triangular shaped.

 

[65wgn440]

Looks like maybe adjusting bolt "slipped" out of place and is not sitting in lever cup properly. You should be able to loosen it enough to guide it back in with weight off suspension, possibly.

 

[PanzerschreckLeopard]

Looks like maybe adjusting bolt "slipped" out of place and is not sitting in lever cup properly. You should be able to loosen it enough to guide it back in with weight off suspension, possibly.

The one in first pic?

 

[65wgn440]

Yes.

 

[72bluNblu]

Torsion bar adjusting bolt isn't seated in the torsion bar adjusting lever cup in the first picture. And, your suspension is pretty much bottomed out. If you have stock torsion bars, you need a couple inches between the bump stop and the frame. The adjuster bolt may have popped off of the lever because there wasn't enough tension on it, so, you should probably check your torsion bars and anchors to make sure something hasn't broken too.

On the other side you have some distance between the bump stop and the frame, but it looks like it's only there because the bump stop is totally shot. Your LCA looks about parallel to the ground. Which is great if you have 1.12" torsion bars like I do. But if you have stock torsion bars you need about twice the distance between the frame and bump stop as you have now, and that's with a good bump stop.

As far as your camber is concerned, YES, changing the ride height with the torsion bar adjusters changes the alignment. And not just the camber either, it changes caster and toe settings too. If you've changed the ride height you need an alignment.

And finally, as near as I can tell, there is not a single part of your front sway bar that is mounted properly. It's a mess. What the hell are the end links mounted to? And, what year is your car/suspension? It looks like you have the wrong year sway bar on there. Like a 73-76 bar mounted on a 67-72 car maybe?

 

[PanzerschreckLeopard]

Torsion bar adjusting bolt isn't seated in the torsion bar adjusting lever cup in the first picture. And, your suspension is pretty much bottomed out. If you have stock torsion bars, you need a couple inches between the bump stop and the frame. The adjuster bolt may have popped off of the lever because there wasn't enough tension on it, so, you should probably check your torsion bars and anchors to make sure something hasn't broken too.
View attachment 1715075854

On the other side you have some distance between the bump stop and the frame, but it looks like it's only there because the bump stop is totally shot. Your LCA looks about parallel to the ground. Which is great if you have 1.12" torsion bars like I do. But if you have stock torsion bars you need about twice the distance between the frame and bump stop as you have now, and that's with a good bump stop.
View attachment 1715075853

As far as your camber is concerned, YES, changing the ride height with the torsion bar adjusters changes the alignment. And not just the camber either, it changes caster and toe settings too. If you've changed the ride height you need an alignment.

And finally, as near as I can tell, there is not a single part of your front sway bar that is mounted properly. It's a mess. What the hell are the end links mounted to? And, what year is your car/suspension? It looks like you have the wrong year sway bar on there. Like a 73-76 bar mounted on a 67-72 car maybe?

71 Valiant. The sway bar was like that when I bought it, and its bolts never stay tight; I can't seem to find a pic of what the stock sway bar looks like when mounted, only aftermarkets. And although the disc brakes are of the 73+ style. Yeah, I did notice it was bottomed out....how much work is involved with replacing the bump stop?

 

[72bluNblu]

Well, both aftermarket and stock front sway bars mount the end links to tabs on the LCA. The difference with the aftermarket bars is you have to add the tabs. But, I don't see the endlinks connected to the LCA's at all, which is why I asked what they're attached to.

If that's a '71 K frame then you have the wrong sway bar. It looks straight in the middle, which means it's for a 73+ car and it's supposed to go through the K frame like on the later 73+ K. But it can't do that on a '71 K-frame. Your best bet with that sway bar is to remove it and start over with the right one.

The bump stops are easy to change, they're only held on by a single bolt that you access from the bottom of the LCA. Of course they'll be rusted and the bolt will break out of the rubber, so, you'll need a set of vice grips or something to hold the plate in place while you loosen the nut. Lots of WD-40 will probably be needed.

But yeah, the bump stops are the absolute least of your concerns.

 

[PanzerschreckLeopard]

Well, both aftermarket and stock front sway bars mount the end links to tabs on the LCA. The difference with the aftermarket bars is you have to add the tabs. But, I don't see the endlinks connected to the LCA's at all, which is why I asked what they're attached to.

If that's a '71 K frame then you have the wrong sway bar. It looks straight in the middle, which means it's for a 73+ car and it's supposed to go through the K frame like on the later 73+ K. But it can't do that on a '71 K-frame. Your best bet with that sway bar is to remove it and start over with the right one.

The bump stops are easy to change, they're only held on by a single bolt that you access from the bottom of the LCA. Of course they'll be rusted and the bolt will break out of the rubber, so, you'll need a set of vice grips or something to hold the plate in place while you loosen the nut. Lots of WD-40 will probably be needed.

But yeah, the bump stops are the absolute least of your concerns.

Ok, so how much work am I looking at? Swap out the bump stops and sway bar, but for the driver side torsion bolt, if I just jack up the car and loosen it, can I just knock it into correct position? Then set ride height and get alignment?

 

[72bluNblu]

Ok, so how much work am I looking at? Swap out the bump stops and sway bar, but for the driver side torsion bolt, if I just jack up the car and loosen it, can I just knock it into correct position? Then set ride height and get alignment?

Yes, if you put the car up on jacks you should be able to loosen the adjuster, slide it back into position, and then re-adjust it. I would not suggest trying to "knock" it back into the correct position no matter what, as you could damage the bolt, threads or even the lever. And yes, after that set the ride height (don't loosen or tighten the adjusters with weight on the wheels!) and get a new alignment.

Except, there's a REASON why the adjuster popped out of the lever. And that's likely a much bigger problem. Worn out/damaged torsion bar, broken torsion bar anchor, worn out LCA bushing or LCA pivot pin tube busted out of the K frame, etc, etc. Something caused the bolt to pop out of that lever, it doesn't happen under normal conditions.

 

[PanzerschreckLeopard]

Yes, if you put the car up on jacks you should be able to loosen the adjuster, slide it back into position, and then re-adjust it. I would not suggest trying to "knock" it back into the correct position no matter what, as you could damage the bolt, threads or even the lever. And yes, after that set the ride height (don't loosen or tighten the adjusters with weight on the wheels!) and get a new alignment.

Except, there's a REASON why the adjuster popped out of the lever. And that's likely a much bigger problem. Worn out/damaged torsion bar, broken torsion bar anchor, worn out LCA bushing or LCA pivot pin tube busted out of the K frame, etc, etc. Something caused the bolt to pop out of that lever, it doesn't happen under normal conditions.

Gggh, ****, and this is my daily car, it's been like that since I got it in October....well, I'll find out tomorrow afternoon.

 

[TimsGT]

67-72 factory lower control arms with the sway bar tabs

 

[72bluNblu]

Gggh, ****, and this is my daily car, it's been like that since I got it in October....well, I'll find out tomorrow afternoon.

Uh, the adjuster has been out of the lever like that since October? And you've been driving it? Good chance the lever is damaged. Should be a nice cup shape in the end of the lever. If it's been riding on that bolt out of position it's probably gouged up. Explains the tire wear too. That thing has to ride like crap like that, it's riding on the bumpstop on the right side, and probably bottoms out on the left all the time too. Sheesh.

 

[PanzerschreckLeopard]

Uh, the adjuster has been out of the lever like that since October? And you've been driving it? Good chance the lever is damaged. Should be a nice cup shape in the end of the lever. If it's been riding on that bolt out of position it's probably gouged up. Explains the tire wear too. That thing has to ride like crap like that, it's riding on the bumpstop on the right side, and probably bottoms out on the left all the time too. Sheesh.

I see....

I have made adjustments with weight on it before, too...

 

[72bluNblu]

I see....

I have made adjustments with weight on it before, too...

Which can strip the threads in the adjusting block. Which could also have contributed to the bolt coming out of the lever.

You need to pull it all apart, check for damage, and figure out what needs to be taken care of before you re-set the ride height and alignment. Otherwise it could just happen again, or worse.

 

[PanzerschreckLeopard]

Which can strip the threads in the adjusting block. Which could also have contributed to the bolt coming out of the lever.

You need to pull it all apart, check for damage, and figure out what needs to be taken care of before you re-set the ride height and alignment. Otherwise it could just happen again, or worse.

How much adjusting with weight would do that? I'd only done a few turns, and most times would jack it.

 

[72bluNblu]

How much adjusting with weight would do that? I'd only done a few turns, and most times would jack it.

Adjusting 40+ year old bolts covered in dirt, rust and whatever that haven't moved in who knows how long? Could be a half a turn. Could be dozens. Who knows? It doesn't take much under the right circumstances. But really if the bolt stripped in the block that's an easy fix compared to some of the other things that could've caused that problem.

Really though you need to forget about a quick fix. Tear it down, inspect the suspension parts, and figure out what needs to be rebuilt and replaced. Maybe it just needs something easy. Or maybe the k-frame has to come out because the LCA pivot tube needs to be welded back into place. But looking at some of the things that have been done with that suspension you've got some shadetree crap going on there. It needs a close look at minimum, and realistically I'd wager a full suspension rebuild is in your future.

 

[PanzerschreckLeopard]

Adjusting 40+ year old bolts covered in dirt, rust and whatever that haven't moved in who knows how long? Could be a half a turn. Could be dozens. Who knows? It doesn't take much under the right circumstances. But really if the bolt stripped in the block that's an easy fix compared to some of the other things that could've caused that problem.

Really though you need to forget about a quick fix. Tear it down, inspect the suspension parts, and figure out what needs to be rebuilt and replaced. Maybe it just needs something easy. Or maybe the k-frame has to come out because the LCA pivot tube needs to be welded back into place. But looking at some of the things that have been done with that suspension you've got some shadetree crap going on there. It needs a close look at minimum, and realistically I'd wager a full suspension rebuild is in your future.

Urgh I hope not, but I guess I'll have to look....

 

[GeorgeH]

Urgh I hope not, but I guess I'll have to look....

Suspension issues can put you into oncoming traffic or pedestrians. You guess you'll look at it??
Every time you replace a suspension part or bushing you'll need another alignment so as Blu suggests doing a full rebuild it is far more cost effective and less time consuming in the long run.

 

[PanzerschreckLeopard]

Suspension issues can put you into oncoming traffic or pedestrians. You guess you'll look at it??
Every time you replace a suspension part or bushing you'll need another alignment so as Blu suggests doing a full rebuild it is far more cost effective and less time consuming in the long run.

I know I know...I'd just have to find a way to get to and from work in the meantime

 

[AJ/FormS]

Rent a car, cuz this one may be down for a while. Could be a week or two. Could be more.Not to fix what we see, but to possibly fix what we cannot see.
I've been driving T-bar cars since 1970, and even jumping them a 'lil from time to time,and never have I seen one pop out of the adjuster,so,like Blu says, something is wrong.
If it was mine, I'd take it all apart, and check everything; the K,the LCA pins, the adjuster system,plus; the bushings,joints,rear anchors,and all normal-wear items.
And we know where that could lead.....$$$$$. And that is the beginning,lol
Good luck.

 

[PanzerschreckLeopard]

Rent a car, cuz this one may be down for a while. Could be a week or two. Could be more.Not to fix what we see, but to possibly fix what we cannot see.
I've been driving T-bar cars since 1970, and even jumping them a 'lil from time to time,and never have I seen one pop out of the adjuster,so,like Blu says, something is wrong.
If it was mine, I'd take it all apart, and check everything; the K,the LCA pins, the adjuster system,plus; the bushings,joints,rear anchors,and all normal-wear items.
And we know where that could lead.....$$$$$. And that is the beginning,lol
Good luck.

Is there any chance that it moved to wrong position while jacked up and unloaded, and it wasn't noticed?

 

[RedFish]

You do show the OEM end link attach tabs on your lower arms so I'll assume you have the OEM bar too. Those original forward mounts did hang low enough to hit a curb or those bump stops in parking lots. And there was a era when owners lowered the front at torsion bar adjust for a hot rod stance. Those forward mounts didn't fair well. Collision would break their bolt tabs off and bend them badly. Plus the way they were made required grinding away welds to spread them open when changing that odd triangle shaped bushing, then weld closed again.
Bottom line, You're not the only owner to have substitute mounts there. Some have been attached/installed better than others. It could be that todays aftermarket does offer proper replacements since good used are quite rare.
A few conditions that can cause torsion bar adjust to be wonky. Fatigued torsion bar. Broken hex socket bar mount. Fatigued or broken rear leaf spring ( one side of rear goes down causes opposite side of front to go up), etc...
What I suggest... Pull the sway bar completely, throw it on back burner for now. You can research those forward mounts and reinstall that bar correctly later on. Drive it to a good suspension shop and have them fully evaluate what is needed to correct any other suspension issues. They will have the arbor press, other specialty tools, and knowledge. They can preorder parts and likely schedule "in and out in one day" service. The thing is... sway bar, shocks, tie rods ends, a lot of it is DIY friendly. So much more is not.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Is there any chance that it moved to wrong position while jacked up and unloaded, and it wasn't noticed?

This should be impossible

 

[PanzerschreckLeopard]

This should be impossible

To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if *I* had done that during the disc brake conversion in January, cause until now I didn't know it wasn't anchored into the part it's pushing on. I kinda just loosened it until I could lift the arm up and down, so it likely shifted then. So, I've removed thew bolt, and yes it was out of the "cup," and I'm near certain that's what happened. I put it in correct place and then made sure both sides had the same amount of turns. It didn't pop back out on the way home, so do you guys think it's safe to go ahead and get it realigned?