oil COnsumption until 1 qt low

[nm9stheham]

sorry typo,pulled of oil filler cap,i dont know what you would call a lot of pressure,dont seem like a lot.misty fumes coming out of filler,i mean i can see it coming out

its not over filled with oil
if crank is whipping oil around and my stock windage didnt fit what are options?

I put my hand over the hole and see if pressure builds up. How much are the fumes? If the ring seal is good, then at idle, I would expect little to nothing at all in the way of visible fumes.

To test the windage tray theory, I'd drain 1 qt of oil and then restart the car and idle it, and look to see if the fumes out of the filler have greatly reduced or ceased all together. If they are about the same, then I would discard the windage tray idea. Oh... I see that AJ has posted essentially the same thing!

Deeper pan and an appropriate pickup would get the oil away from the crank., if that is the issue.

 

[nm9stheham]

JDsduster, just so you know, a leakdown test doesn't tell you squat about how the oil rings are working. It only tells you that the compression rings are sealing and if their coated with oil from the oil rings not doing their job even the leakdown test is invalid (IMO).

Absolutely... and 2nd ring problems will cause excess oil burning. IMHO, the builder just wanted come up with an excuse to do nothing.

 

[toolmanmike]

To test the windage tray theory, I'd drain 1 qt of oil and then restart the car and idle it, and look to see if the fumes out of the filler have greatly reduced or ceased all together. If they are about the same, then I would discard the windage tray idea. Oh... I see that AJ has posted essentially the same thing!

Deeper pan and an appropriate pickup would get the oil away from the crank., if that is the issue.

That was my guess back on page 1. I have read through most of this thread for the 3rd time and I still don't know if the oil usage stops after that first quart is gone or does it continue to use oil till it's empty. Now I know you shouldn't run a 5 quart system 2 quarts low but without installing a deep pan and proper pick up how would you know.

 

[jdsduster]

You know they make a blow-by tester right? I have one.
It's just a steel ball in a fitted pipe with a calibrated orifice on the bottom and vented at the top.You plumb it to the CC,usually a valve cover, unplug the PCV and then seal the CC. Then you just open the throttle to whatever load or rpm or operating condition you want to simulate, and the ball jumps up and tells you about what's going on in the CC.
Before I got that tester, I used a largeface Vacuum/ fuel-pump pressure tester. It wasn't as accurate cuz the psi divisions were quite close together, and the gauge was heavily damped.

As an FWI
I used to run my 7qt pan with just 5/6 qts in it as my DD. I went to the track once, and put the full 7 in it.Straightline it was fine. I ran a rally cross with it one time with 7 in it, Big mistake. It smoked for twenty minutes until it emptied the mufflers,lol. I went home and modded the breather system, and cut some drainback channels in my brand new Eddies. Problem solved.

More FWI
I used to see this problem all the time in the small engine world. People would overfill the CC and complain that the engine was smoking and under-powered. Hyup, you guessed it too much oil in it.
Up here Canada operates with the metric system. Most of our liquid gallon jugs are actually 3.78 liters, which is 3.3 Imp qts, or 4.14 qts Us. But oil-jugs are 4.4 liters, and starting to be 5 liters/4.4Imp/5.5qts US.
Our cars usually take 5 liters/4.4qts Imp/5.5Usqt.
Our measuring devices are mostly calibrated in metric/Imp. Are you starting to see a pattern here? Hyup, you have to be a scientist or a mathematician, to do an oil-change up here.
Anything that comes in a jug bigger than about a quart/Qt/liter,lol, up here, is now just called a "jug". And we never just pour a jug in until you bring out the calculator and figure out exactly whats what.It's absolute chaos. When gas goes up it's usually by 2,5 or 10 cents a liter which , you know, doesn't sound like much. But converted to Imp, it's a stinking rip-off; 9, 22.75, and 45.5cents a gallonImp. And oil jugs rise and fall by several dollars per jug.
Milk comes in 2-liter jugs and can be over 8 bucks, a 2-liter coke is usually 3.60 or 1.97per quart-Imp/40 ounces or 1.58-quartUS/32 ounces.
Yada Yada,Yada.
Point is, people make mistakes up here all the time. I used pull the cap off, tip the device over, dribble out an appropriate amount of oil and hand it back to the customer and say there go try it now. You can imagine the look on their faces.

That was my guess back on page 1. I have read through most of this thread for the 3rd time and I still don't know if the oil usage stops after that first quart is gone or does it continue to use oil till it's empty. Now I know you shouldn't run a 5 quart system 2 quarts low but without installing a deep pan and proper pick up how would you know.[/QUOTE

ive just been adding

That was my guess back on page 1. I have read through most of this thread for the 3rd time and I still don't know if the oil usage stops after that first quart is gone or does it continue to use oil till it's empty. Now I know you shouldn't run a 5 quart system 2 quarts low but without installing a deep pan and proper pick up how would you know.

That was my guess back on page 1. I have read through most of this thread for the 3rd time and I still don't know if the oil usage stops after that first quart is gone or does it continue to use oil till it's empty. Now I know you shouldn't run a 5 quart system 2 quarts low but without installing a deep pan and proper pick up how would you know.

That was my guess back on page 1. I have read through most of this thread for the 3rd time and I still don't know if the oil usage stops after that first quart is gone or does it continue to use oil till it's empty. Now I know you sh

That was my guess back on page 1. I have read through most of this thread for the 3rd time and I still don't know if the oil usage stops after that first quart is gone or does it continue to use oil till it's empty. Now I know you shouldn't run a 5 quart system 2 quarts low but without installing a deep pan and proper pick up how would you know.

That was my guess back on page 1. I have read through most of this thread for the 3rd time and I still don't know if the oil usage stops after that first quart is gone or does it continue to use oil till it's empty. Now I know you shouldn't run a 5 quart system 2 quarts low but without installing a deep pan and proper pick up how would you know.

oil use slows down when 1 qt low.ive just been adding a qt in fear of it getting to low.all summer ive just added a qt,until recently,i just watched it and usage seemed to slow at the 1 qt low mark.

 

[nm9stheham]

oil use slows down when 1 qt low.ive just been adding a qt in fear of it getting to low.all summer ive just added a qt,until recently,i just watched it and usage seemed to slow at the 1 qt low mark.

I would have the same fear. But if it slows, then maybe it is to 200 miles per quart and that is still bad oil use. So unfortunately, 'slowing' is not a solid indicator of what is going on.

At least at idle, 1 qt low will be fine..... and I suspect 2 qts low would be OK.... AT IDLE. I can only suggest you drain out that 1 quart and repeat the checks for vapors out of the filler. (Yes, you really want to see the vapors go away at that point but try your best to be objective; it is important to try to troubleshoot this well. And, tThese are not great tests but are simple to do with no tools.)

 

[jdsduster]

thanks for advise and time.its really very dissapointing to spend this kind of money on a perfectly running engine,to come away with this.i should of been happy with the little 300 hp magnum that had 0 issues.

 

[nm9stheham]

Yep.... I am sure everyone here is pulling for you.

 

[toolmanmike]

I understand your frustration.

was a 300 hp magnum,used 0 oil.dipstick is the same.no windage tray,wouldnt fit.even made bigger baffles under valve covers.if its rings thats going to suck,pulled it after 400 miles and took it back to builder,couldnt find any major issues.if its intake issues wouldnt he have seen it with the scope?stock oil pan.

I have been searching on the net and here. I don't think anyone uses a stock pan. Everyone uses a deep pan and of course no windage tray because the stroker cranks won't clear them.

 

[toolmanmike]

The rod bolts come quite close to the oil pick up tube and with a stock pan and pick up the oil is very close when it's full. Just sayin'.

 

[AJ/FormS]

If the CC is pressurized at idle and stopped,with the PCV plumbed in and working, that's bad news.
But if it's not pressurized, then, really you have to eliminate the premise that the crank is beating up the oil, or that the oil is running down from the heads, over the cam, and falling onto the crank.
I would drain all the oil and put 3.5 back in. Then adjust the chassis height
so that the pan is parallel to the level parking surface.Then repeat the test.
After this I would pull a valve cover and see how much oil the top-end is getting and where it's going.
But if there's pressure at idle with the PCV plumbed; it's game over.
So I'm agreeing with anybody/everybody that has already mentioned this.

BTW
2% LeakDown is a pretty sweet number
Also; this is a Magnum right? With oil-thru pushrods right? Well when you pop the covers, on the running engine, have a good look at those 16 little tubes and their interfaces.
Hypothetically speaking, If there was a problem in the pushrods or their sockets, this problem could have a really simple solution........unless there's pressure,that's bad news.
With the PCV hooked up, and the engine idling, the intake should suck a 3x3 piece of paper POW! right onto the open filler hole.No vacuum is bad, pressure is worse.

 

[RAMM]

Leakdown numbers mean absolutely jack squat. Why is this thread continuing? It ain't the pan design or windage tray or whatever. Quit wasting your time and tear it down and re-piston and re-ring it properly. .004"-.005" is way too much for a cast piston which was already stated here long ago. Strokers have to be right with cylinders and clearances--they jack the piston around big time and the oil rings are lifted off the wall twice per rev. What really sucks is that the clearance is built into the piston dimension so you can't just throw forged pistons in at the same bore size because those too will have way too much clearance. So now you have to go to the next nominal oversize. Good luck OP. J.Rob

 

[jdsduster]

I understand your frustration.

I have been searching on the net and here. I don't think anyone uses a stock pan. Everyone uses a deep pan and of course no windage tray because the stroker cranks won't clear them.

why would he build my 500 hp stroker and keep the stock oil pan then?he has build several of them.i did another run today and it uses oil,so the 1 qt low theory of mine is incorrect.also checked again at just over a qt low on oil,at idle,there is no pressure on the oil filler cap,sooo,doesnt that tell me the rings are good?im confused,i thought when i checked it at the full mark,i had mist out of filler cap.this i why i had a professional buid it,so i wouldnt be dealing with this ****.thanks guys

 

[RAMM]

why would he build my 500 hp stroker and keep the stock oil pan then?he has build several of them.i did another run today and it uses oil,so the 1 qt low theory of mine is incorrect.also checked again at just over a qt low on oil,at idle,there is no pressure on the oil filler cap,sooo,doesnt that tell me the rings are good?im confused,i thought when i checked it at the full mark,i had mist out of filler cap.this i why i had a professional buid it,so i wouldnt be dealing with this ****.thanks guys

I already said leak down doesn't mean jack. Large amounts of blowby doesn't always mean its an oil consumer. The opposite is also true. J.Rob

 

[nm9stheham]

why would he build my 500 hp stroker and keep the stock oil pan then?

If he used forged piston clearances with hyper pistons, then it is hard to say.

 

[moper]

Leakdown numbers mean absolutely jack squat. Why is this thread continuing? It ain't the pan design or windage tray or whatever. Quit wasting your time and tear it down and re-piston and re-ring it properly. .004"-.005" is way too much for a cast piston which was already stated here long ago. Strokers have to be right with cylinders and clearances--they jack the piston around big time and the oil rings are lifted off the wall twice per rev. What really sucks is that the clearance is built into the piston dimension so you can't just throw forged pistons in at the same bore size because those too will have way too much clearance. So now you have to go to the next nominal oversize. Good luck OP. J.Rob

x3. My approach would be to pull the heads, inspect the chambers and piston tops. Measure the rock. Verify the measurements. It may be best-case to order custom forged pistons to fit in the holes. Rebalance, reassemble with new rings. I'm not sure what the pan used was or if the mains were studded. But I always stud mine, and use stock windage trays and stock pans on 4" engines. They need some careful fitting, but they work fine.

 

[nm9stheham]

also checked again at just over a qt low on oil,at idle,there is no pressure on the oil filler cap,sooo,doesnt that tell me the rings are good?im confused,i thought when i checked it at the full mark,i had mist out of filler cap.this

The pressure test really only tells you that the compression rings are sealing decently OK; it does not say that the oil rings are working right. Here is the counterpoint to the story I told of the engine with the loose bores that did not burn too much oil:

I messed up 1 of the oil ring expanders in an engine assembly years ago; things like piston-to-bore clearance were all correct; engine was smooth and had the right power, and compression was 155 or so in all cylinders, so compression ring seal was good. But it used a qt in 20 miles, smoking out of the side with the messed up ring assembly. Pulled that piston, put in a new oil ring set on that piston, buttoned it up, and all was good for the next 75k miles, 'til the bores wore out.

So compression can be good but oil consumption high.

It sounds like if it misted with full pan and then did not do that when a qt low, then you may have shown that the crank is getting into the oil.

 

[yellow rose]

Just because it's not puffing out the breathers at idle doesn't mean the rings are sealed under load.

I spent a bunch of time testing blow by under load and static ring seal and loaded ring seal are two different things.

If you are sure those Pistons have that much clearance that's the issue.