oil pump question

[gunmetal72]

sorry, I guess it is called the windage tray. and no I was no thinking I would need o change the shaft that drives the pump but now that you mention it??

 

[yellow rose]

There gets to a point in some engine builds where a HV pump and a higher pressure regulation is warranted,and your engine is NOT one of them.
Whenever you ask about oil pumps you will always get those who straight away say" Oh I always use a HV with high pressure". The reason for that is because they simply don't understand where the oil pump fits in relation to the whole oiling system, so they go with what they consider is the safest option and usually it's the wrong option.
Anyone here who is telling you to go to a HV pump , don't know what they are talking about..

You should explain it to us then because my actual results prove you wrong. Once you go past stock rockers and spring pressures you need the HV/HP pump.

As I said, these are NOT chevies. If you are going to the trouble of going through the engine, you should use full grove mains. That, in and of itself should be the first clue for a HV pump.

 

[Bakerlite]

You should explain it to us then because my actual results prove you wrong. Once you go past stock rockers and spring pressures you need the HV/HP pump.

As I said, these are NOT chevies. If you are going to the trouble of going through the engine, you should use full grove mains. That, in and of itself should be the first clue for a HV pump.

I've explained this subject before, if you weren't here, then that's not my problem.
You want to tell me how using a different rocker and a higher spring pressure changes your oil pressure.. LOL.. just more BS. If your grooving the cam journal and having oil spraying out everywhere up top then going to a HV pump is not the fix, controlling the oil and putting it in the right places in the correct amounts / pressure is.
Patching up an oiling system that leaks like a siv , by throwing yet more oil at it is not the way to go. I don't know about you but when I build an engine I try to control and reduce the amount of wasted oil and windage going around in there. That's why the F.A.S.T racing hemi guys can run a stock 6 quart factory sump and not have oiling problems..
Full groove mains are old hat, I don't use them and I don't know many who do. Blowing oil past the mains just adds to more windage, more oil control problems and less power
As I said in this build he does not need a HV pump..

 

[yellow rose]

I've explained this subject before, if you weren't here, then that's not my problem.
You want to tell me how using a different rocker and a higher spring pressure changes your oil pressure.. LOL.. just more BS. If your grooving the cam journal and having oil spraying out everywhere up top then going to a HV pump is not the fix, controlling the oil and putting it in the right places in the correct amounts / pressure is.
Patching up an oiling system that leaks like a siv , by throwing yet more oil at it is not the way to go. I don't know about you but when I build an engine I try to control and reduce the amount of wasted oil and windage going around in there. That's why the F.A.S.T racing hemi guys can run a stock 6 quart factory sump and not have oiling problems..
Full groove mains are old hat, I don't use them and I don't know many who do. Blowing oil past the mains just adds to more windage, more oil control problems and less power
As I said in this build he does not need a HV pump..

No matter how you post it. You are still wrong.
How do full groove mains cause more oil to blow past the mains? It doesn't as it lets oil get to the rods full time because the factory oil timing is off. Do you even know what that is? How does a HV oil pump cause oil loss and less control?

I can tell you don't do a lot with high spring pressures or you'd have a clue. Grooving the cam keeps a small amount of oil going to the rockers. It's an absolute must when valve spring pressures get up there. I have run as high as 340 on the seat and a little over 900 over the nose. Most never do that, but I have. As I said, go over about 200 on the seat and you need more oil up top. You have no clue how wrong you are.

Keep on telling people the wrong things and I'll keep calling you on it. You are just wrong.

 

[nm9stheham]

sorry, I guess it is called the windage tray. and no I was no thinking I would need o change the shaft that drives the pump but now that you mention it??

It is more of a point of maintenance and durability. The corners on the hex at the bottom of the shaft that engage into the female hex in the pump can get turned, and if bad enough and get loaded at high RPM's, they will evenutally 'smooosh' off and then the shaft just spins in the pump. There are shafts with hardened tips if you turn a lot of RPM's. Plus you will get a new cam gear on the shaft. Also, consider replacing the bronze bushing in the block in which the shaft rides, if you have it all apart. You can find both at Mancini.

 

[gunmetal72]

It is more of a point of maintenance and durability. The corners on the hex at the bottom of the shaft that engage into the female hex in the pump can get turned, and if bad enough and get loaded at high RPM's, they will evenutally 'smooosh' off and then the shaft just spins in the pump. There are shafts with hardened tips if you turn a lot of RPM's. Plus you will get a new cam gear on the shaft. Also, consider replacing the bronze bushing in the block in which the shaft rides, if you have it all apart. You can find both at Mancini.

Thanks for this, I will take a look. I am also told I need to change the cam gear because I am going to a roller cam. Kinda makes sense to change the shaft and bushing. I am still unsure of the HV oil pump. There is allot of guys that have different opinions on what pump to use. I am of the mind that it would be a good thing to use a HV pump but keep the low pressure spring. The clearances of the engine will be small so it should have good oil pressure but having more oil flowing at low RPM would be the big benefit. So I am thinking that is the route I should go.

 

[yellow rose]

Thanks for this, I will take a look. I am also told I need to change the cam gear because I am going to a roller cam. Kinda makes sense to change the shaft and bushing. I am still unsure of the HV oil pump. There is allot of guys that have different opinions on what pump to use. I am of the mind that it would be a good thing to use a HV pump but keep the low pressure spring. The clearances of the engine will be small so it should have good oil pressure but having more oil flowing at low RPM would be the big benefit. So I am thinking that is the route I should go.

Not to beat a dead horse, but who says what is "standard" volume and "high" volume? The standard was the oil required for a bone stock engine doing bone stock stuff. The HV pump is only HV because it is compared to the production unit. The HV pump will provide 25% more oil at the same RPM as a standard pump. It's really that simple.

That said, there really is no wrong answer because there are people who do it either way with success. So what ever you choose, you won't be wrong if everything else is correct.

 

[nm9stheham]

Thanks for this, I will take a look. I am also told I need to change the cam gear because I am going to a roller cam. Kinda makes sense to change the shaft and bushing. I am still unsure of the HV oil pump. There is allot of guys that have different opinions on what pump to use. I am of the mind that it would be a good thing to use a HV pump but keep the low pressure spring. The clearances of the engine will be small so it should have good oil pressure but having more oil flowing at low RPM would be the big benefit. So I am thinking that is the route I should go.

Perchance are you using the SCAT type I-beams rods? If so they have a LOT larger big end side clearance than the stock rods, and will flow more oil out there, 'specially at higher RPM's when centrifugal force tends to fling the oil out of the rod side clearance. That would call for better flow to the rods overall, including the pump. Just thought I'd ask since you are going to a roller cam.

Any other mods like grooved cam bearings in 2 and 4 positions?

 

[Duane]

There is a fair amount of misconception going on about these pumps.

1. The theoretical difference in flow volume of the HV pump is 20% over the standard pump, and have been advertised/measured at 18% or so over the standard. But that extra only flows into the engine in a limited, lower RPM range.
2. Once either pump's output pressure hits the relief spring limit, then neither pump flows more than the other into the engine.... either pump at that point will provide whatever oil the engine's oiling system will take AT THE RELIEF SPRING PRESSURE, and the rests just recirculates inside the pump via the relief valve. The HV just recirculates more.
3. The HV pump will put out more pressure at the lower RPM's and reach the pressure limit sooner than the standard as the revs increase. So for equal relief springs, the HV has that advantage and will thus flow more oil into the engine AT THE LOW RPM's; I can't see any thing but good from that for typical engine use. And if the clearances are bigger, then it will help for sure.
4. As said, once the relief valve opens, they flow equal amounts into the engine, so for exclusively high rev use, the standard pump won't flow any less than the HV pump, and the standard pump will take a little less power to turn, which may matter at over 3000 or 4000 RPM, but would be of no consequence for street cruising.

BTW, we recently bought a Mopar Performance HV pump, and it actually was a Melling with the higher pressure spring. There was no need to mod the oil pan. It is a stock 273 pan on a 340. We kept the stock pickup.

Glad to see the words recirculate here in your post. That too is one of the misconceptions being spread on this forum. Many claim the excess is dumped back into the pan which is incorrect information. It is indeed recirculated within the pump itself.

Duane

 

[krazykuda]

I would rather error on the side of too much oil, than too little...

 

[Duane]

I've explained this subject before, if you weren't here, then that's not my problem.
You want to tell me how using a different rocker and a higher spring pressure changes your oil pressure.. LOL.. just more BS. If your grooving the cam journal and having oil spraying out everywhere up top then going to a HV pump is not the fix, controlling the oil and putting it in the right places in the correct amounts / pressure is.
Patching up an oiling system that leaks like a siv , by throwing yet more oil at it is not the way to go. I don't know about you but when I build an engine I try to control and reduce the amount of wasted oil and windage going around in there. That's why the F.A.S.T racing hemi guys can run a stock 6 quart factory sump and not have oiling problems..
Full groove mains are old hat, I don't use them and I don't know many who do. Blowing oil past the mains just adds to more windage, more oil control problems and less power
As I said in this build he does not need a HV pump..

Full groove mains do not leak any more oil than a standard bearing set. The groove provides full time oiling to the rods by allowing the oil hole to n the crank to always have oil pressure available regardless of the crank position.
Full groove main bearing imho require a high volume pump not because they leak more but because you are now providing leakage at the rod bearings by full time oiling.

Perhaps you could provide a link to your previous posting about having pumps. I am curious to read it.

Duane

 

[fishy68]

Perchance are you using the SCAT type I-beams rods? If so they have a LOT larger big end side clearance than the stock rods, and will flow more oil out there, 'specially at higher RPM's when centrifugal force tends to fling the oil out of the rod side clearance. That would call for better flow to the rods overall, including the pump. Just thought I'd ask since you are going to a roller cam.

Any other mods like grooved cam bearings in 2 and 4 positions?

I have only used 1 set of SCAT I-beams so my experience isn't great with them but mine do not have any excess side clearance. In fact their a whole bunch tighter than the stock rods that were in my old 360. I don't remember the exact clearances but it was less than .020" with the SCAT's and about .035 with the stock rods. No clue on how many miles the stock rods had on them but they didn't look worn. I'm sure the crank had something to do with it too

 

[nm9stheham]

Well, the standard dimension of the big end width posted on the SBM SCAT rods works out to .026" side clearance..... which is spot on with what we got. So maybe they changed them since you used them?? .035" sounds WIIIIDE for a stock rod big end....

 

[gunmetal72]

Perchance are you using the SCAT type I-beams rods? If so they have a LOT larger big end side clearance than the stock rods, and will flow more oil out there, 'specially at higher RPM's when centrifugal force tends to fling the oil out of the rod side clearance. That would call for better flow to the rods overall, including the pump. Just thought I'd ask since you are going to a roller cam.

Any other mods like grooved cam bearings in 2 and 4 positions?

I am planning to use the stock rods. I am also not going to crazy with the roller cam (crane) as I don't want to lose vacuum with the power breaks. Should have a fairly smooth Idle. Plan to use edlebrock 60175 performer rpm heads and 7576 air gap intake with a 650 edlebrock carb. I have bored the block to 30 over and upgraded the pistons, compression should be10:1. I am hoping for around 350 hp when finished.

 

[nm9stheham]

OK, gotcha. Very good. Any reason to use the 65 cc 60175 heads vs the 63 cc 60775 heads? The 65 cc heads have the pseudo-open chamber area opened up in them that pretty much negates any quench gap. If you are zero decking the pistons in the block (or getting close), then you can end up with a good quench gap with the standard .039" Felpro 1008 head gaskets if the 63 cc closed chamber heads are being used.That buys some more detonation resistance and helps burn effiecieny. Either way, you should be on target HP-wise for sure. Nice combination (IMHO).

And BTW, if you have not bought your heads yet, MAYBE today is the day! Autozone has their 35% gift card discount for on-line purchases March 3-4, and you can get back a gift card of around $560 for those heads, enough to get the intake plus more goodies like engine gaskets for free. (Free shipping in the US but you do have to add in your local sales tax if they have a business presence in your state.) BUUUUT, I see you are in Canada....so I am not sure if that all applies for you.... it's worth checking out.

 

[gunmetal72]

OK, gotcha. Very good. Any reason to use the 65 cc 60175 heads vs the 63 cc 60775 heads? The 65 cc heads have the pseudo-open chamber area opened up in them that pretty much negates any quench gap. If you are zero decking the pistons in the block (or getting close), then you can end up with a good quench gap with the standard .039" Felpro 1008 head gaskets if the 63 cc closed chamber heads are being used.That buys some more detonation resistance and helps burn effiecieny. Either way, you should be on target HP-wise for sure. Nice combination (IMHO).

And BTW, if you have not bought your heads yet, MAYBE today is the day! Autozone has their 35% gift card discount for on-line purchases March 3-4, and you can get back a gift card of around $560 for those heads, enough to get the intake plus more goodies like engine gaskets for free. (Free shipping in the US but you do have to add in your local sales tax if they have a business presence in your state.) BUUUUT, I see you are in Canada....so I am not sure if that all applies for you.... it's worth checking out.

I wish I could buy from autozone but they will not ship to Canada. They are about$600 cheaper even with the exchange rate. Sucks

 

[nm9stheham]

If I was near to the border..... well, never mind! LOL Wish you could too. We found out about the AZ deal AFTER we bought elsewhere...rats!

 

[fishy68]

Well, the standard dimension of the big end width posted on the SBM SCAT rods works out to .026" side clearance..... which is spot on with what we got. So maybe they changed them since you used them?? .035" sounds WIIIIDE for a stock rod big end....

I bought mine about 5 yrs ago so maybe they did widen them up since then but I'm not sure why they would do so. Even at that .026" it isn't terribly wide. Your right about .035 being wide for stock. First stock one I had ran into that wide.

 

[floivanus]

I have sucked a pan dry racing after 2-3 minutes at higher RPM's but it was not a Mopar. The design did not have any flow restriction in the head oiling feed passage.

Ford FE engine? Only thing I can think of, just put smaller restrictors in my wife's 390 galaxie...

My camaro has a HV pump in it also, really havent seen an issue with it

 

[nm9stheham]

Ford FE engine? Only thing I can think of, just put smaller restrictors in my wife's 390 galaxie...

My camaro has a HV pump in it also, really havent seen an issue with it

Hunh, I never knew that on those engines. No, it was an Opel 1.9L cam-in-head (70's vintage) that I rallied for years and years; I happened to leave in a relief spring shim in a pump and was in a hurry to start racing and did not hook-up the oil pressure gauge; turned out I had over 100 psi....oops! The Vega engine was known for the same thing if you ran it at high revs and too much pressure.

 

[71DodgeDemon340]

I say standard, unless you like seeing high oil pressure at idle, when i had my engine builder bulid my 340 he called a tech from milodon and asked if the hv pump was necessary with the setup and the guy from milodon said unless you want high oil pressure at idle then the standard pump will be fine, oil has two main purposes, lubricate and dissipate heat, to my thinking using a hv pump when one isnt needed is overkill, i would think that the hv pump would push oil by too quick and not properly dissipate heat but i may be wrong. i get about 25/35 psi oil press at idle with standard pump and about 75 psi at highest point. Just my thoughts