opinions needed regarding available EFI for a small block

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71dusterdan

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Hey fellas, I have been beating my brains and chasing demons trying to find a way to inject my 360. I was leaning towards factory Magnum beer barrel efi, sure seems like the hard way. However when it breaks it can be repaired with parts from any auto store. Recently I have been more and more intrigued by the aftermarket and the various all in one throttle bodies...ie MSD, Fast, Holley etc. I really want to just be able to turn the key and have it light up with in a half revolution, and compensate for altitude etc. I just want the modern driving experience fairy tale in my 71 Duster. Anybody have experience ether way with any of these set ups and advise? Thanks, Dan
 
Seems to me a lot of guys think good of Megasquirt, but you can mix and match components if you do some research

You can use a modified 4bbl intake with added injector bosses, OR a factory magnum intake and injectors

Some guys are using Ford computer because they are supposed to be easier to deal with than some of the --especially newer-- Mopar stuff. I've read some horror stories about some of the newer stuff having security issues with the computer and whatever module hooks up in the column.
 
You have to figure how to.match the Ford signal.wave,from the pick up coil.Megasquirt is more universal,supposedly.
 
if your working on a budget and don't mind doing work yourself to make it work use factory EFI if tinkering is your main thing you like to do but don't like stuff that is too involved get EZ-EFI self tuning and no laptop needed
 
My vote is Megasquirt as well. You can do spark/fuel, more tuning options. as long as you can solder building is fairly easy and is probably one of the cheapest options. I am almost done with mine and can post pics or more info if needed,I like the capability to tune for each cell. Fast EFI for its simplicty and self tuning but it is almost twice the price. Megasquirt has the capability to self tune as well by mapping the 02 sensor.
 
Megasquirt is GREAT but, do your research before pulling the trigger. It can be a bit hard to set everything up for some people.

I think the chevy tbi is promising for a cheap simple efi conversion.

If you don't know much about efi, don't want to learn and you have plenty of cash get something like the fast kit.
 
I like the idea of a system that uses a mass flow meter. This is the only one I am aware of. I have not used it.

Not to hijack the thread, but I would be interested if anyone here has.

http://www.massfloefi.com/
 
Multi-Port Injection (MPI) should give much better fuel distribution than any single-point Throttle Body Injection (TBI). I have used the old Holley Pro-jection on a Mopar 383, but always quirky, even with O2 feedback. I understand their last Pro-jection model finally added enough sensors to make it work OK. The Holley Commander 950 replaced it and works much better, w/ versions for TBI and MPI. Usually the TBI version brings ~$650 used on ebay.

FAST, Motorvation, and others are TBI, but use 4 (or more) MPI injectors. That makes it easier to change injectors for tuning and probably gives better distribution than older TBI. Some may have a common source since they look similar. The cheapest TBI would probably be the Mopar factory system used on the last SB trucks before the Magnum (~1985, check www.AllPar.com). I saw one on a JY Dodge truck recently, but wouldn't want the cast iron intake. Your engine should run fine with that ECU if the same displacement. I don't think it needs any signals from the block or heads (ex. crank sensor), but verify.

For MPI, using the factory barrel-keg intake would be cheapest. However, for a direct mount, you must install Magnum heads. Many people prefer those anyway. You also must verify hood clearance. I hope to adapt one to my 273 heads eventually. I don't think you can use the factory ECU without a crank and a cam sensor. They didn't use the cam sensor for spark since still a mechanical distributor. Many after-market ECU's can control MPI, such as Megasquirt or Commander 950. The only other MPI intake I know of is an after-market low-rise for Magnum heads. If you use the beer-keg, it needs a stiffer plenum plate and maybe cut back the runners for better top end (search ebay).

Megasquirt is a high threshold, with much custom wiring and electronics knowledge. It also isn't cheap, usually $250+ for a used newer ECU, and even the latest is a bit dated design with kludgy add-ons required for MPI and COP ignition. I read a lot that are "works in progress" and many people giving up and selling out. I am sure some are daily drivers, but haven't heard of any on FABO. While I have the background to do Megasquirt, I decided not. I got a used Commander 950 ECU on ebay for $120 that appears easier though still need to make a harness. I will leverage a Magnum harness I have.
 
71dusterdan said:
Hey fellas, I have been beating my brains and chasing demons trying to find a way to inject my 360. I was leaning towards factory Magnum beer barrel efi, sure seems like the hard way. However when it breaks it can be repaired with parts from any auto store. Recently I have been more and more intrigued by the aftermarket and the various all in one throttle bodies...ie MSD, Fast, Holley etc. I really want to just be able to turn the key and have it light up with in a half revolution, and compensate for altitude etc. I just want the modern driving experience fairy tale in my 71 Duster. Anybody have experience ether way with any of these set ups and advise? Thanks, Dan
Click to expand...



I'm going to tell you if you're interested in ease and reliability go with the factory EFI setup from a magnum motor. It just takes a few relay and keyed on power source to have it running. I've successfully wired both OBD1 (pre'96) and OBD2 ('96-03) engines into my '74 duster for the last 5 years. I would be happy to answer questions about the process or the magnum engines/electronics. There are tuning options available for the OBD2, which makes it the more desirable of the two if you're planning to modify the engine. For my OBD2 setup I'm also running the factory 4speed AOD transmission.
 
I was originally looking into a FAST EZ-EFI system for my 5.7 swap (didn't get computer and harness with my engine), but ended up getting a really good deal on a used Megasquirt. It was taken off of a 340 and I got pretty much a "fuel inject a small block in a box" kit (intake, rails, injectors, computer, distributor, etc.), though I sold all the pieces I didn't need. I consider mine a daily driver in a certain sense (I don't commute to work in it 25 miles each way all the time, maybe a once or twice a week).

Once you get it all figured out it's like any other system. It takes a few cranks to light up, but it always fires consistently (2-3 revolutions or something, need the crank signal to turn the fuel pump on). I run my spark through an independent MSD box instead of the Megasquirt. I already had the box and didn't want to mess with extra ignitors for the 5.7 COP setup. I really like it, runs consistently and once I got the settings and map figured out it runs like any other new car, just hop in a go, don't have to wait to warm up or whatnot. I could stand to do some more work on the low end and cold tuning, but it's not that bad. Having a stick makes tuning the low end a little harder I think, you see some funky conditions that you don't see in an auto much if at all. Mainly low rpm and high load (engine drags down when slipping the clutch, give it more gas to compensate). The steering on the other hand, not quite as tight as modern cars, lol.

FAST makes a version of the EZ EFI that works with factory style MPI setups as well (the original direction I was looking to go). It's a fair deal cheaper than the TBI kit since you're not buying a brand new throttle body (about $800-900 for the MPI kit, ~$1200-1500 for TBI if I remember right), but you still have to come up with an intake and injectors. Would have to check and see what all sensors it requires though. I think it's designed to replace a stock ECU, so you'd probably need a crank sensor at the least. I think they are sold by manufacturer (ie. Chrysler, Ford, GM, etc.)
 
TT'74 said:
I'm going to tell you if you're interested in ease and reliability go with the factory EFI setup from a magnum motor. It just takes a few relay and keyed on power source to have it running. I've successfully wired both OBD1 (pre'96) and OBD2 ('96-03) engines into my '74 duster for the last 5 years. I would be happy to answer questions about the process or the magnum engines/electronics. There are tuning options available for the OBD2, which makes it the more desirable of the two if you're planning to modify the engine. For my OBD2 setup I'm also running the factory 4speed AOD transmission.
Click to expand...

Do you have any pics of your setup?
 
x2 and a breif discription and parts list.

I have a complete top end from a 2000 5.9, and a computer from a 97 5.2, but lack the wiring harness. I have an 87 318 roller that might want that MPI setup and Magnum heads a bit later on.
 
I'm kinda new to the EFI idea too. I was looking at the FAST Ezee for my 410 but then started reading about the MSD Atomic, I think I'm pretty sold on this one although I haven't pulled the trigger yet. You might go to MSD's website and check it out there is a lot of info there.
 
Graminizer said:
Do you have any pics of your setup?
Click to expand...

I could take some for you if you really want, but it just looks the same as popping the hood on any 90's dodge truck. What pictures would you want specifically?

ECM Mounted on pass fender:
wiringharness.jpg


Three relays needed to make it all work:
wiringharness2.jpg


OBD1 setup ECM mounted on drivers fender (used a van harness) + TTs
TTdone.jpg


As far as a parts list, I used the stock harness, ECM, sensors and either 2 or 3 relays depending on OD or nonOD trans.

Found a wiring schematic relevant to the year engine, ECM, and harness I had.
I then Identified the leads needed to power the ECM, both constant power and keyed-on power.
I nipped the bulk connector at the end of the harness opposite the ECM.(normally goes to the relay bank)
I put constant and keyed-on hot to the ECM via the correct wires.

After that I considered what else was needed for the motor to run. With the hots hooked up that provided me with Spark, and air is a given. So I needed FUEL. The design theory runs the fuel pump relay through the ASD(automatic shut down) relay. So back to the wiring schematic, to determine how the relays get power and signal from the ECM. Once these two relays are hooked up the engine with run and do everything it's supposed to. It will generate C.E.L.s for things such as EGR, pre/post cat O2 sensors, or other items dependent upon standard equipment for that engine. But non of these codes have ever put my car into "limp" mode.
 
YY1 said:
x2 and a breif discription and parts list.

I have a complete top end from a 2000 5.9, and a computer from a 97 5.2, but lack the wiring harness. I have an 87 318 roller that might want that MPI setup and Magnum heads a bit later on.
Click to expand...

The wiring harness for an '00 is different from that of a '97. '96-97 trucks were conversion years, from OBD1 to OBD2. They are kind of a like OBD1.5, off hand specific differences between those years and later OBD2 engines are Alternator wire connections, Injectors plug harnesses, Security/nonsecurity units. So if it was me I would try to get a wiring harness and ECM that are the same year, so that the pinout is easy to follow (non need to cross reference multiple years).
 
TT'74 said:
I could take some for you if you really want, but it just looks the same as popping the hood on any 90's dodge truck. What pictures would you want specifically?
Click to expand...

This is pretty awesome information - Curious if you used the computer-controlled transmission and/or if magnum with a non-computer controlled 904 would make the stock ECU unworkable?
 
The first setup I built was OBD1 and actually had a factory 727 behind it. My current setup runs a third relay not mentioned above to actuate and control the O/D and the lock up converter.
 
NOT the fastest way but cheep
 

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