Overlap vs. Wider LSA - Detonation Resistance?

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I love it. If I'm not feeling well, I drive it and then everything's better. lol


Exactly. I was driving my buddy’s 73 Duster with the 505 hp 395 inch deal, with a 650 carb and very lightly ported iron heads with 2.02 valves around and every now and then I’d have to drop it a gear and stick my foot into it to remind me it’s actually making 505 hp because driving it around feels like it’s making 275 hp.

In fact, I was on the phone with him a couple of times when I did it and he could hear it wake up. We both giggled our butts off. It was so fun for me and he could hear it.

That’s what motivated me to finish my garbage and get it running.
 
Exactly. I was driving my buddy’s 73 Duster with the 505 hp 395 inch deal, with a 650 carb and very lightly ported iron heads with 2.02 valves around and every now and then I’d have to drop it a gear and stick my foot into it to remind me it’s actually making 505 hp because driving it around feels like it’s making 275 hp.

In fact, I was on the phone with him a couple of times when I did it and he could hear it wake up. We both giggled our butts off. It was so fun for me and he could hear it.

That’s what motivated me to finish my garbage and get it running.
And of course mine is "nowhere" near that, but I do the same thing when I get on an incline in high gear I would normally downshift on and I just mash it on down. It just plows right on up. lol It's kinda like a hopped up tractor. lol
 
Just so I’m clear, I know guys kill cylinder pressure to reduce the tendency to detonate.

Does it work? Not really for what I said above.
Thanks again. It's interesting to me how many different opinions there seems to be on this topic. Kinda like spark plug preference, I guess.
 
Amen!
Let me say it this way.

I’ve seen absolutely no correlation between cranking compression and detonation or more accurately detonation resistance.

I have seen engines bumping 155 on the gauge rattle like crazy and 200 not rattle at all. I haven’t checked my engine yet with a calculator (it’s sitting on the dyno as I type this, but I had a PAYING job come in so my junk comes off tomorrow so I can do that then mine goes back on and I suspect I will make 75-80 pulls minimum unless it craps itself) but I will here in a bit get on Wallace and see what mine should be, but it better be 195. 200-205 is where I think I want to be. Over 210 I may wet myself a bit.

What I see related to cranking compression is the higher it is the smaller the tune up window is.

That means that you have less margin for error. Things like your timing curve, engine coolant temperature, spark plug heat range and much less obvious things like your overall first gear ratio, rear axle ratio converter stall speed or clutch tune up and most importantly how the driver drive the car become critical.

So if the engine temp climbs 15 degrees (talking sticks here or manually shifted slush boxes) and the driver doesnt down shift and is running a gear high you will rattle the engine where it wouldn’t if the coolant temperature was where it should be.

Another example is spark plug heat range. If it’s a drag car the plug can be a bit hot (it can never be a glow plug but it’s criminal how many guys run a plug thats too hot) but a car that is on a road course you can’t be any too hot.

That’s why I call unorthodox pump gas compression ratio engines (I suppose that would be depending on who you ask anything over 10:1 but I consider anything over 11.5:1 on pump gas unorthodox) some of the most difficult to teach the end user how to use it. I’ve been teaching it for better than 35 years and guys still refuse to believe it can be done.

The short answer is I look at cranking compression as how wide or big the tune up window is. So I suppose in that sense cranking compression can be related to detonation sensitivity but as I said before, I’ve seen pretty low cranking compressions rattle bad.

I almost forgot. RING SEAL and OIL CONTROL is beyond critical in unorthodox pump gas compression ratio engines. If the engine is using a quart per 1k miles and you are hitting the gauge at 180 it’s going to be hard to keep it from rattling. At 195 you just about cant do it. You’ll be running plugs so cold they fouls at low loads and the timing will be so retarded the exhaust gas temperature are screaming and it will still rattle.

Oil control is absolutely critical if you want to bump more than 185 on the gauge. You really need at a minimum a fully functioning PVC system. If you can use a Panevac over that all the better. Or if you are a bucks up dude you can use a vacuum pump. But you have to control the oil getting to the cylinders.

To that end, if your machinist isnt using a profilometer to measure the source geometry of the bores get a new machinist. If he still thinks a ductile iron moly filled top ring is the ****, take your parts and run.

I’ll go run my numbers on Wallace and see what it says my junk should do and post it and then when I get my trash checked I’ll post that follow up here.
"To that end, if your machinist isnt using a profilometer to measure the source geometry of the bores get a new machinist. If he still thinks a ductile iron moly filled top ring is the ****, take your parts and run."
RIGHT ON MAN!
 

Amen!

"To that end, if your machinist isnt using a profilometer to measure the source geometry of the bores get a new machinist. If he still thinks a ductile iron moly filled top ring is the ****, take your parts and run."
RIGHT ON MAN!
What top ring is the ****???? Asking for a friend.
 
Here is what Wallace shows my garbage pumping. I used the best uncorrected barometer I’ve seen here so if I get to sea level it will go another 8-10 PSI.View attachment 1716489519

So you can see Im on the edge for pump gas as far as my current tuning abilities go. Or so I tell myself.

Im doing some water pump testing on the dyno when I get to it so I can pump/belt power losses as the overdrive ratio goes up. I know I have 6% and 22% overdrive ratio pulling out there. I’d love to find some around 12-15% over but you just can’t buy the stuff.
Well with that cranking pressure I expect a video post of you dancing a jig. You said you’d do it.

1766338463121.gif
 
Well with that cranking pressure I expect a video post of you dancing a jig. You said you’d do it.

View attachment 1716491304

We will soon know lol.

I just finished a 383 BB on Friday.

Rough numbers it made 430 hp and IIRC almost 460 TQ.

On a very docile build. Still had stock rockers. HFT cam.

The customer bought a 750 Proform for it. It had a .035 MAB and was dead lean at the top, so I dropped it down to .024. It made more power but the a/f curve went from pretty flat to saw tooth, so I pulled it down and all 4 emulsion holes were wide open.

I did blocked 2 and 4 and it picked up power.

It had a decent curve but I’m pretty sure with more time on the carb and getting the correct curve there was at least another 20 in it.

Very very nice build.
 
We will soon know lol.

I just finished a 383 BB on Friday.

Rough numbers it made 430 hp and IIRC almost 460 TQ.

On a very docile build. Still had stock rockers. HFT cam.

The customer bought a 750 Proform for it. It had a .035 MAB and was dead lean at the top, so I dropped it down to .024. It made more power but the a/f curve went from pretty flat to saw tooth, so I pulled it down and all 4 emulsion holes were wide open.

I did blocked 2 and 4 and it picked up power.

It had a decent curve but I’m pretty sure with more time on the carb and getting the correct curve there was at least another 20 in it.

Very very nice build.
460 lb/ft from a mild 383 is damn nice. I can’t wait to hear about yours on the pump. Please start a thread and document it.
 
What are they?

First of all, you need a competent machinist with a profilometer if you want to use current rings.

That is nonnegotiable. If you can’t verify surface geometry then buy ductile iRon moly rings.

They are the most forgiving if you can’t control the hone.

If you are technical about it, and you can carry on a conversation with an engineer and not be intimidated and you at least think you know what you want, call Total Seal and ask them.

I run the AP stainless top with gas ports.
 
First of all, you need a competent machinist with a profilometer if you want to use current rings.

That is nonnegotiable. If you can’t verify surface geometry then buy ductile iRon moly rings.

They are the most forgiving if you can’t control the hone.

If you are technical about it, and you can carry on a conversation with an engineer and not be intimidated and you at least think you know what you want, call Total Seal and ask them.

I run the AP stainless top with gas ports.
Do you care to share your ring pack dimension, and which oil ring you recommend.
 
We will soon know lol.

I just finished a 383 BB on Friday.

Rough numbers it made 430 hp and IIRC almost 460 TQ.

On a very docile build. Still had stock rockers. HFT cam.

The customer bought a 750 Proform for it. It had a .035 MAB and was dead lean at the top, so I dropped it down to .024. It made more power but the a/f curve went from pretty flat to saw tooth, so I pulled it down and all 4 emulsion holes were wide open.

I did blocked 2 and 4 and it picked up power.

It had a decent curve but I’m pretty sure with more time on the carb and getting the correct curve there was at least another 20 in it.

Very very nice build.
Don't talk about 383s making power. The 383 haters here are worse then the 318 and slant 6 haters.
 
Don't talk about 383s making power. The 383 haters here are worse then the 318 and slant 6 haters.
I always looked at the 383’s potential like a good 340 combination, due to their short stroke. Highly underrated.

AJ/S should be chiming in pretty soon with a slide rule…
 
Do you care to share your ring pack dimension, and which oil ring you recommend.

These pistons are 1/16-1/16-3/16. It’s what I had.

If I get my choice I’ll take an .043 ring and better yet the 1mm (.0394) ring pack.

Rings eat power and make heat.

1/16 rings are the new 5/64 tractor ring.

It’s why I avoid KB pistons like the plague. You can’t even get a 1/16 ring pack with them.

Thinner rings seal better, last longer and make more power.
 
When you run a roller cam over a hydraulic flat tappet stick it also changes the whole dynamic.

The roller allows you to open and close the valves so much faster.

While wider rings do eat horsepower, they are a lot more forgiving in an engine that detonates over the skinny rings.

Tom
 
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When you run a roller cam over a hydraulic flat tappet stick it also changes the whole dynamic.

The roller allows you to open and close the valves so much faster.

While wider rings do eat horsepower, they are a lot more forgiving an engine that detonates over the skinny rings.

Tom

That’s why we use steel rings, stainless, tool steel and whatever else they have now.

In the last 12-15 years rings have gotten so much better it’s amazing.

The problem is getting the piston companies to stop using tractor ring groove widths and teaching the end user the benefits of the rings.

And finding a machinist who is competent to do the work, the latter two the most difficult.
 
That’s why we use steel rings, stainless, tool steel and whatever else they have now.

In the last 12-15 years rings have gotten so much better it’s amazing.

The problem is getting the piston companies to stop using tractor ring groove widths and teaching the end user the benefits of the rings.

And finding a machinist who is competent to do the work, the latter two the most difficult.
What’s the preferred grit of the final stone to achieve optimum ring seal with the tool-steel rings.
 
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Just looked at Total Seal gas ported AP steel 1.5 1.5 3.0, 4.03+5 bore, $642.00. Outta my league!!! Maybe for a class racer where every horsepower counts.
 
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