Powerjection III install

[magnumdust]

I thought this might interest some people. About 3 months ago i picked up a used powerjection III kit on ebay. This is the efi system that has throttle body that looks just like a holley carb. It has the self-tuning feature that's popular in other kits and can support nitrous/forced induction.(most cannot do this) I had been collecting AN fittings/misc. fuel system parts and now i've finally begun the install today.

So here is what came from the seller. It basically included everything except the fuel inlet piece and the fuel pump/lines/fittings as well as some extra parts due to the upgrades he made.(pic1)

Initially was gonna run Fragola Pushlite front to rear, but i hit a snag in trying to do a clean install. The holes in the crossmember for fuel lines are too small for AN6 line. So (pic2) is of my solution. I bought some aluminum 3/8 line, tube nuts, and flare kit. Ran that through the crossmember and stuck my post-pump filter on one side. The cheap zip ties are temporary. May do some metal zip ties covered in shrink wrap to protect the hose or at the least, some beefy thick zipties.

Lastly for today is my fuel pump(pic3) This seemed to be the most time consuming process.

Plans tomorrow will hopefully including routing all my lines, wiring the harness, installing the new throttle body, and if i'm feeling extra ambitious, firing it up.

 

[BillGrissom]

Your pump is up pretty high. Some might say too high to work, but Walbros really suck, by which I mean good in this case. Make sure you install a simple carb-type fuel filter on the inlet side of the pump. It won't live long without it. I used a $3 generic 3/8" tube-tube metal one. I put my pump in the engine bay lower frame rail in 2 cars, and works fine there. I think you will hear yours very well from under the back seat.

 

[Mad Dart]

Some fuel line ideas for you... Starting at post 68

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=224605&page=3

 

[magnumdust]

Your pump is up pretty high. Some might say too high to work, but Walbros really suck, by which I mean good in this case. Make sure you install a simple carb-type fuel filter on the inlet side of the pump. It won't live long without it. I used a $3 generic 3/8" tube-tube metal one. I put my pump in the engine bay lower frame rail in 2 cars, and works fine there. I think you will hear yours very well from under the back seat.

My basis for that location was from a post Mad Dart made awhile back:

"Yes they do lift fuel better than the other pumps. I myself have called Walbro and talked to the Engineer that built that specific pump "GSL392". YES they have a special division just for that pump. I also emailed him pictures of my 3 pump GSL392 set up as I asked him the questions over the phone about the DEAD HEAD and Lifting Fuel. He says it has been tested to lift fuel up to 5 Feet. This is why it is used by the Diesel Truck guys quite often. It is also designed as a DEAD HEAD pump so if you have multiples like me you do not need to worry about fuel going right back to the tank through a pump that is not turned on. "

So the pump is mounted higher than the tank, but its certainly close enough for the 5ft. From that spot, the farthest/lowest location in the tank can't be further than 3ft away. As for backseat noise. I'm fine its audible from the backseat(no kids, so its not really used) and it should hopefully a lot quieter than the front mounted carb pump i have now. I can hear that damn pump at stop lights and i have loud side exhaust. :angry7:

Also part of the location is that i'd like to go to a fuel cell sometime in the future and that's a reasonable location.

Pre-filter is covered. I picked one up from professional products:

Thanks Mad Dart for that link. I wish i had seen that idea for the crossmember earlier. I like than better than using some 3/8 alum tube and tube nuts to get through that area.

Today didn't go entirely as planned, mostly because i ran into a couple of snags along the way that will put me behind until next week. However, the fuel system is mostly done with the exception of the re-doing the mounts for the lines, feeding the lines to/from the TB and the last two lines at the tank.

Despite the cheap zip tie method, i did get the lines nice and tidy so you cannot see them from just looking at the side of the car(pic1)

(pic2) is where im stopped at. The line for the vac. booster connects to a fitting on the manifold that interferes with the throttle body. So i have to go hunt down a fitting at a hardware store that's shorter and makes a quick right angle. Then i found that the coil gets in the way of the new fuel rail. I'm gonna try to shim the coil mounts of possible or at worse just relocate the coil. And lastly, my harness for the powerjection is suppose to have black/red/green/orange/yellow wires. It has two reds and no orange. Hopefully the plug on the throttle body doesnt have this mistake and i wont have to call the company.

 

[Mad Dart]

It is a job no matter how you you run the fuel lines. So you know with my headers and hardly any room to drill those holes, it took me about 2 hours to widdle through there it was not fun at all.......haaaa ,,, The pump is fine in that location it will lift the fuel no problem. Looks like you got the filter covered. I am finishing up mine this week as well and I am using a GSL-392 also. It is for a carb set up but the concept is the same as it needs a return. I am using a Mallory 4307M Regulator that is good from 4-15psi and has a boost ref 1:1 port for any future upgrades for boost.

I am anxious to see your new set up installed and running. Keep the progress updated!!

 

[Mad Dart]

Your pump is up pretty high. Some might say too high to work, but Walbros really suck, by which I mean good in this case. Make sure you install a simple carb-type fuel filter on the inlet side of the pump. It won't live long without it. I used a $3 generic 3/8" tube-tube metal one. I put my pump in the engine bay lower frame rail in 2 cars, and works fine there. I think you will hear yours very well from under the back seat.

Wow you mounted your pumps pretty far away from the tank. Good to hear the GSL-392 is up to that task. I do believe the pump will get quieter the closer it is to the fuel tank and will not have to work so hard to get at the fuel. Reason I say this is I had 3 of these pumps running at the same time with my TT Engine on the Dyno and you could barely hear them running. The fuel cell was no more than 2-3 feet from the pumps. Just a thought to toss around.

 

[BillGrissom]

magnumdust, I have no idea who related the "no more than 5 ft" rule, but pretty sure they don't have an engineering degree. I can just barely hear the Walbro pump in my 65 Dart with the engine off, and not at all when running. In my 65 Newport, I have the Holley gear-rotor pump low on the inner fender (no frame rail to use) and also barely hear it. Previously, when I had the Holley pump (or others, like Ford truck TBI pump) on the rear frame rail, it could be heard very well through the rear seat. I expect the difference is that the front rail is more isolated from the cabin, with the thick cross-member in between. Re potentially starving the pump, when I tested my Newport's tube flow, gas just poured out of the tube so seems no way there could be a supply problem. That is from the factory 5/16" tube. I ran a 3/8" supply in my Dart, so could probably empty the whole tank thru it in a few minutes.

 

[Mad Dart]

magnumdust, I have no idea who related the "no more than 5 ft" rule, but pretty sure they don't have an engineering degree. I can just barely hear the Walbro pump in my 65 Dart with the engine off, and not at all when running. In my 65 Newport, I have the Holley gear-rotor pump low on the inner fender (no frame rail to use) and also barely hear it. Previously, when I had the Holley pump (or others, like Ford truck TBI pump) on the rear frame rail, it could be heard very well through the rear seat. I expect the difference is that the front rail is more isolated from the cabin, with the thick cross-member in between. Re potentially starving the pump, when I tested my Newport's tube flow, gas just poured out of the tube so seems no way there could be a supply problem. That is from the factory 5/16" tube. I ran a 3/8" supply in my Dart, so could probably empty the whole tank thru it in a few minutes.

You calling me a Liar?? LOL , Take some time and call the GSL 392 Department yourself. I talked directly to the "Engineer" who is the Head guy in that department. The GSL 392 was tested in house to LIFT fuel up to 5 Feet. I did not discuss how far away you can mount the fuel pump from the tank.

Unless the guy I talked to was FOS I tend to believe what he was telling me. I discussed my 3 Fuel pump GSL 392 set up for my TT Engine and I even went back and forth sending him pictures of my set up through email. He said he has never seen anything like it before but the set up was sound and looked trick to him and should work great. So there you go... Take it or leave it, IDC

View attachment phpmyA57TPM.jpg

 

[magnumdust]

magnumdust, I have no idea who related the "no more than 5 ft" rule, but pretty sure they don't have an engineering degree. I can just barely hear the Walbro pump in my 65 Dart with the engine off, and not at all when running. In my 65 Newport, I have the Holley gear-rotor pump low on the inner fender (no frame rail to use) and also barely hear it. Previously, when I had the Holley pump (or others, like Ford truck TBI pump) on the rear frame rail, it could be heard very well through the rear seat. I expect the difference is that the front rail is more isolated from the cabin, with the thick cross-member in between. Re potentially starving the pump, when I tested my Newport's tube flow, gas just poured out of the tube so seems no way there could be a supply problem. That is from the factory 5/16" tube. I ran a 3/8" supply in my Dart, so could probably empty the whole tank thru it in a few minutes.

Well i suppose we can settle this when i'm to the point of testing the lines for leaks. I'll break out the video camera and get a sound test.

Not a ton of work today, but I found the necessary fitting to mount my vacuum booster line without getting in the way of things and routed the fuel inlet line. In the last pic you can see my old fuel pump. This will likely by the location of my regulator. That way its just a short bit of hose to the original feed line(now used for return)

Unfortunately i have to remount my coil somewhere.

 

[BillGrissom]

You calling me a Liar?? LOL

No, quite the opposite. I think a Walbro pump will suck fine to any height one might place it in an A-body. That wouldn't be higher than the top of the tank anyway, unless someone is crazy enough to route their fuel lines into the trunk. BTW, your design is very slick and all rodders will be envious, though most people don't need 3 parallel pumps.

I mis-stated the rule that magnumdust heard. It was actually "must be within 3 ft of the lowest point in the tank", which is even sillier. All that matters is that the line pressure not fall below the "minimum inlet pressure" of the fuel pump (varies with temperature and gasoline blend) and certainly not below the "vapor pressure" of the fuel.

When I tested the location in my Newport in the engine bay, fuel freely flows out of the tube at a high rate, so the pump doesn't even have to suck (might have been with a full tank). I didn't even test the flow in my Dart, since that pump is lower, plus a Walbro.

As I mentioned, when I first installed the Holley Pro-jection in my Newport decades ago, I tried to follow their instructions to the letter. I mounted the pump at the rear, slightly below the bottom of the fuel tank. It caused many problems back there, and I am much happier with it in the engine bay. The Holley kit also left a lot of the detailed design to the user, like how to connect fuel hose to the filter they provided with "quick-connect" tubes, without including matching fittings. Seems a lot of after-market kits leave it up to the user to handle the harder tasks. That seems typical in retail, pushing tough jobs back on the customer. Ex., a Brake-O in Atlanta once charged big bucks to put a new drum on my Dart's hub with a spun bearing race and said "you can fix that yourself".

 

[magnumdust]

Nearly completed update:

Today was suppose to be the day i finished everything, but a mix of rain and spraining my knee stopped me dead in my tracks. :banghead:

However i got some substantial work done before i had to call it a night:

(pic 1): Bolted up the throttle body, lines, regulator, painted the brackets(cheap paint is chipping though). I put power to the pump to pressurize the line, but found 3 leaks. I fixed two and the third will be done tomorrow. Unfortunately test drives won't be possibly until i have my fuel sender modified again, my original plan didnt work. and the return hose is basically sitting on the rear axle

Oh and to settle the noise dispute, this pump is incredibly quiet. You can just slightly hear a hum from the outside of the car with the pump on and engine off.

(pic2): Found the first minor hiccup with this system. It advertises that it uses holley brackets for the throttle. Which seems to be mostly true, except if you need to use a mopar oem auto kickdown. But nothing a few minutes with a dremel can't cure.


Things left to do before i can video it firing up: wire up 3 wires, connect the 02 sensor, remount my coil if necessary, fix one leaky fitting, adjust the regulator to the right pressure a it was cranked to 60psi b/c last owner had it setup for forced induction, and load a base calibration(which i'll be building 2nite)

 

[SRT_DSTRHOLC]

Too bad you didn't do a fuel milage comparison

 

[pishta]

I could have sworn I saw this kit for $457.99 in the back of a magazine a few months ago, but I could very well be mistaking, maybe 1457? I like it for a straight retrofit. The self tuning aspect is huge. I bought my Edelbrock Pro-Flow EFI off Ebay, slightly used...well, slightly "tried to install it but gave up and lost the pump" used...75% off!

 

[67Dart273]

I don't think you can buy the computer for 500........................

One reason I'm thinking Megasquirt

 

[magnumdust]

Too bad you didn't do a fuel mileage comparison

oh i know the current mpg. It'd get in the ballpark of 10-12 with the carb on the highway. Around town seems slightly better, but still a nearly negligible difference.

I could have sworn I saw this kit for $457.99 in the back of a magazine a few months ago, but I could very well be mistaking, maybe 1457? I like it for a straight retrofit. The self tuning aspect is huge. I bought my Edelbrock Pro-Flow EFI off Ebay, slightly used...well, slightly "tried to install it but gave up and lost the pump" used...75% off!

I can pretty much guarantee you're mistaken. The lowest end base kit goes for about $1500 bucks. I was looking all over before i went for this ebay kit. It wasnt 75% off, but i saved in the realm of 600 bucks, not including the injector upgrades that came with it when i go to add a power adder.

Maybe someone could verify this for me(not near one of the 20 catalogs i have since ordering various AN fittings), but i believe the most recent summit catalog has a powerjection ad on the cover for page 457?

I might've gone with another brand, but the only self-tuning kits that have spark control and forced induction/nitrous support are this kit and the holley avenger. This just came along first.

 

[pishta]

I don't think you can buy the computer for 500........................

One reason I'm thinking Megasquirt

you can get an older MS and then get the 2.2 daughterboard upgrade to make it a 2.2 with self tuning feature. Bung an intake and get a TB and your on our way. Break out the soldering iron! boost capable and does spark. you'll be buying quite a few extra doo dads to get it to adapt though, just an FYI.

 

[magnumdust]

I was hoping to have the system done today, but i got thrown a curve ball. One AN fitting leaked, and i could never get it to stop leaking. It *looks* like i didnt fully seat the pushlok hose. So i have to let the system air out for a day or two before i can take a heat gun to the tube and hope it'll seal.

I've wired everything else (minus the fuel pump wire due to testing purposes).


MS is great, but it is a lot of work. compared to my system.

 

[67Dart273]

I was hoping to have the system done today, but i got thrown a curve ball. One AN fitting leaked,..........................

Be absolutely sure you are not mixing and matching AN and SAE adapters and fittings. No6 won't as the threads are different, and neither will no12, but the other sizes will screw together. With steel fittings, AKA hydraulic tractor stuff, AN and SAE is sometimes successfully interchanged

But with aircraft style aluminum and other light alloy fittings you will have sealing problems.

 

[67Dart273]

you can get an older MS and then get the 2.2 daughterboard upgrade to make it a 2.2 with self tuning feature. Bung an intake and get a TB and your on our way. Break out the soldering iron! boost capable and does spark. you'll be buying quite a few extra doo dads to get it to adapt though, just an FYI.

Thanks, didn't mean to hijack, that's good info. I get confused reading about the Mega versions. Yeah, I have an intake, intend to "bung" it with the setup I saw on the www.............. so I cannot take credit. Already bought the fittings, which are 1/2" compression X 3/8" US pipe. I also have the injectors, rails, etc, out of a 90's 5.2 Jeep

Thing is, I presently have a Holley Commander TBI so I can use it too

 

[magnumdust]

Be absolutely sure you are not mixing and matching AN and SAE adapters and fittings. No6 won't as the threads are different, and neither will no12, but the other sizes will screw together. With steel fittings, AKA hydraulic tractor stuff, AN and SAE is sometimes successfully interchanged

But with aircraft style aluminum and other light alloy fittings you will have sealing problems.

Its all AN-6 stuff. Everything is either fragola, summit, or whatever came with my fuel pump(Positive its AN6 per the ebay auction)

 

[magnumdust]

I finally have a meaningful update: It's alive(sort of)

I fixed the leak i had which turned out to be my own fault, I didnt remove the hose fitting when i had to tighten the fitting on the pump a little more. Which from what i can tell, spun the barb in the hose and ruined the seal. So i just cut the hose, replace it with a new push lock fitting(just for good measure) and no more leaks. :blob:

I wired everything up and went to load a tune, but i hit a hiccup with my netbook/tuning software/drivers. So i figured i was sunk for at least the day. But for the hell of it i thought: "I wonder if it would start with the old tune", which is a tune for a Blown ford 460 w/ 85lb injectors. Obviously running very very very very rich, but it came to life(click on picture for video):

[ame=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v661/ColoradoZQ8/IMG_0147.mp4]

[/ame]

I think i have the netbook issues sorted now and i'm gonna go try it out in an hour or so.

 

[Mad Dart]

I finally have a meaningful update: It's alive(sort of)

I fixed the leak i had which turned out to be my own fault, I didnt remove the hose fitting when i had to tighten the fitting on the pump a little more. Which from what i can tell, spun the barb in the hose and ruined the seal. So i just cut the hose, replace it with a new push lock fitting(just for good measure) and no more leaks. :blob:

I wired everything up and went to load a tune, but i hit a hiccup with my netbook/tuning software/drivers. So i figured i was sunk for at least the day. But for the hell of it i thought: "I wonder if it would start with the old tune", which is a tune for a Blown ford 460 w/ 85lb injectors. Obviously running very very very very rich, but it came to life(click on picture for video):



I think i have the netbook issues sorted now and i'm gonna go try it out in an hour or so.

Cool! Glad you got it fired off.

 

[pishta]

I resurrected an old Win Millenium (!!!) laptop for my MS, as it needed a serial port for the interface, have not seen one of those in years on a laptop! So the self tuning aspect can turn down the injector duty cycle? So any base map will get the ball rolling? Man, that is sweet. My Edel PF-1 has a little control pad that you mess with from inside the cab, neat-O but antiquated compared to today's blue-tooth/Wifi enabled controllers and smart phone interfaces!

 

[magnumdust]

It's done!!!, or atleast nice and drivable. I'm sure i'll be playing with it more one i get the car on the dyno.

I ran into 3 hiccups along the way
1. My original plan for my fuel sender was good in theory, but just didn't work right. 2nd idea and a trip to the welding shop and it was good to go.

2. I had the car on "E" when i started and drained enough fuel with tests so that the system would not maintain fuel pressure(lol)

3. Last, but certainly not least, when using the tuning software i guestimated the engine's torque based on the engine specs i copied(LXguy). The instructions say to put in the engine's rwtq, which i expected to be around 300rwtq. But that resulted in it wanting to die anytime i gave it gas. So i put it at 400rwtq and the car drives flawlessly.

Throttle response is instant, it starts up easily, and warms itself up. I put 5-7 miles on it tonight and once it warmed up the active learning kicked in and by the time i parked it, the engine was running/idling smoother.

Final engine bay pic: (yes, the air filter stud was cut down right after this pic)

 

[Mad Dart]

Great accomishment! Nice job!