Really weird ignition issue...

-

Kern Dog

Build your car to handle.
FABO Gold Member
Joined
May 23, 2010
Messages
13,545
Reaction score
39,713
Location
Granite Bay CA
Hello,
This car is a 1972 Plymouth Duster:

72 dirty.jpeg


Years ago, I swapped in 1979 360 from a van, later I swapped in a reproduction 340 cam from Mopar Performance. It has a Weiand 4 barrel intake and I had a Holley 600 4 barrel on it for most of the time I've had the car. Today I changed to an Edelbrock 750 since I had it here.
I changed the engine bay wiring to a 73-75 style so I could use electronic ignition with stock wiring. It uses all stock components.
I lined up the oil pump drive/intermediate shaft to point toward the forwardmost intake bolt as suggested by Rick Ehrenberg. Supposedly, this puts the distributor in the proper location.
With the engine timing set to 10 degrees BTDC, it idles great and runs well. When I try to connect the vacuum advance vacuum hose, the engine pops, sputters and runs so bad it stalls. Oddly, it does this whether attached to the ported or the manifold vacuum ports.
I did have Holleys on the car, both gave the same response with the vacuum line attached. I swapped on the Edelbrock and while it runs excellent at idle and under a load, if I attach the vacuum line it does the same thing as with the Holley carburetors. I can't even get a timing reading from it to see if it suddenly adds far too much timing.
One more thing....The vacuum advance cannister is touching the oil pressure sending unit. I have the "bell" shaped one on the car which is not correct since those are for cars with actual oil pressure gauges. I can't imagine that the wire terminal for the pressure switch could affect the distributor....is that even possible?

0336.jpeg
 
Last edited:
It might be possible. I don't know. But that's not quite the correct position for the intermediate shaft. The slot should point to the front most intake BOLT on the driver's side, not the intake port. It sounds like you need to reclock it anyway to get it away from the sending unit.
 
You should also put a vacuum gauge on the vacuum ports and see if they do both have vacuum at idle. Something is wrong if they both do. Also I believe the ported vacuum for the distributor is the one on the passenger's side.
 
But that's not quite the correct position for the intermediate shaft. The slot should point to the front most intake BOLT on the driver's side, not the intake port.
I described that wrong, I will edit that.
It is aimed at the forward most intake bolt.
I have to find a correct smaller oil pressure switch too, the small one for the idiot light.

1740208638350.png


Currently, it has one shaped like this:


1740208836231.png
 
Having vacuum to both the timed port and manifold port sounds to me like the butterflies are open too far to get it to idle. The secondaries aren’t fully closed at idle by chance are they? If not, my thought process is it needs more timing at idle which will allow the idle screw to be backed off getting out of the timed vacuum port. We installed a “340” cam in my dad’s 318 with electronic ignition and if I remember correct we set timing at 14 degrees btdc. These are just some ideas of how I’d look at it.
 
This is what I would do:
I would;
Take the carb off, and drain it.
Check and adjust the float level to the designed level.
Holding the throttle closed to prevent the fast-idle from engaging, flip it upside down, and
With the speed screw, adjust the Primary transfer slots to a little longer/taller, than wide. and from this point on, I would NOT TOUCH THE SPEED SCREW!
I would
Close the Secondaries up tight, but not sticking.
Put the mixture screws back to 2.5 turns out.
Flip it right-side up, and reinstall it.
Test the VA to make sure the diaphragm is NOT ruptured, and put it on the spark-port. Make sure it is truly on the spark-port and not on the choke pull-off port.
If the car has a Brake booster, I would clamp off the hose for now.
I would
>Plumb the PCV to the place provided for it, at the front of the carb, just below the throttle blades.
>Use only thick-walled hose rated for PCV use. I would not plumb the PCV to the back of the intake plenum, nor to any single-intake runner. This is VERY, almost extremely important. This calibrated air-leak is the Idle-Air bypass, and that 340 cam, in a low compression ratio 360, is gonna want that bypass air. In fact, probably it will need even more air but we'll get to that later.
Finally, I would take all the slack out of the accelerator pump linkage.
Next;I would
Reset the static timing to 12*.

Now, listen carefully;
>the distributor drive gear cares not one whit to where the drive-slot is pointing. Not one tiny bit.
Every time you re-index it;
to make it work at the new location, you will simply reclock the cap to get a tower above the rotor, at the firing point of the reluctor, and rewire the cap as may be necessary, and so, the engine will run exactly the same as before you reclocked it. This is a Big waste of time, unless you just want it to be like the factory
>There are only three reasons to use the factory..... clocking. They are;
1) cuz when you do, and your cap has a "1" beside one of the towers, that tower is supposed to send the spark to the #1 cylinder, and
2) the custom-fit factory plug wires will all fit. and
3) if another DA mechanic works on it, he won't charge you an hour to re-clock it to; "well, that's where the factory put it, so they must have wanted it there for a reason" ; which reason I have already explained; just go find a new mechanic! That is all.
Go ahead everybody, prove me wrong. Criminy I figured that out over 50 years ago.
ANY TOWER, can be used as #1, but it better be the one directly above the rotor when the #1 cylinder is at TDC compression! That is all there is to it.
If it should happen
that your Vcan is hitting the Oil sender, then the daymn thing is up too high. If you have room, and if you need to, you can just re-clock the distributor to the next tower, and re-clock the wires, but leave yourself enough twisting-room to be sure you can get 36* advance at 3600rpm.
Now,
I have seen distributors, not factory ones, that when you set the static timing to 12*, the rotor-tip is quite far from a tower, and when the advance comes in, the rotor runs away from the correct tower, and the spark goes to the wrong cylinder.
And I have seen pick-ups wired in wrong polarity, that you can make idle, but as soon as the flyweights begin advancing, the spark goes berserk.
And I have seen reluctors installed on the wrong-way rotation index pin, which indexes the rotor too far out to lunch..
So there's lots of ways to get your ignition system messed up, but clocking to the oil-pump-drive slot is NOT one of them.
And BTW, the electronic ignition distributor does not require nor care about electrical grounding, so long as the pick-up remains isolated.

Ok, so, assuming the following:
> the t-slot sync is close, and
> the wet fuel level is correct and stable, and
> the coil is correct for the system and wired correctly,
> the ignition system is working as designed, and
> the PCV is working and is plumbed correctly, and
> all the air that the engine is gonna be seeing, is gonna be coming into the plenum past the throttle blades, and
> the valves are all closing and opening in the right order and at the right time, and sealing, and
>The Secondary System is known to be working,
Then
Put some gas in the bowls thru the bowl-vent, and splash a couple of teaspoons into the primaries, then put the gas pedal down half way, hold it there until the engine revs up, and CRANK IT!
The engine should lite right off!
It may rev up and then die, I would kindof expect that with an open choke. Just dribble another two teaspoons of gas down the primaries, and repeat. The second time, the mechanical fuel-pump should have finished filling the bowl, and it should run. Just sit there for a half a minute and keep the revs up at around 1500>2000. This will call the VA into play, and if yur lucky, that will bring in another 12>15 degrees timing, for a quick warm up.
After the engine has smoothed out and burned off all the fuel I dumped into the intake, now you can slowly bring the Rs down towards idle.
If the engine stalls, you will be tempted to increase the speed-screw; DON"T DO IT.
Instead, just give it more Idle-Timing.
Don't worry, at idle, your 340-cammed 360 will gladly accept tons of timing, maybe over 30>35*. just get it to idle so it can warm up. Use the fast idle cam if you have to, but do not touch the speed-screw!


Ok, after the engine is up to temperature,
and the lifters have adjusted themselves;
Kick off the fast-idle, and start backing off the Idle-Timing, towards 12*.. This number is arbitrarily chosen. You can set anywhere between say 5* and 18*. But
The right Idle Timing and T-slot sync, will be whatever timing it takes
1) to get rid of any tip-in sag, and
2) does not bang excessively into gear, and
3) gets you about 750 rpm in Neutral, and does not
drop more than 100 rpm into "Drive".
Next;
Adjust the mixture screws for best lean idle.
If this takes more than 2.5 turns out, then the engine wants a lil more fuel from the transfers.
If the mixture screws want to be at less than 2.5 turns, then the transfers are already too far open.
Adjust the speed screw in increments of 1/2 turn, until she gets happy and the rpm stabilizes..... but not more than 1 turn from the starting position.
If the engine is still rich, chances are that she wants more Idle bypass air. But, PROVE IT FIRST; check the fuel level and pressure; a high fuel level will manifest as a rich idle. If you think it's rich, PROVE IT FIRST.
I don't think the factory 340 cam, with the correct PCV valve, will want bypass air; but if it does; first prove the system is sucking air.
Then having proved that she's rich at the Synchronized slot exposure, and it's not a bad fuel-level, Ok;
I would just drill a small hole in each Primary throttle blade, beginning at 1/16" inch. I put them just back from the front edge, near to between the transfer slots and the idle discharge ports. Then test it.
I would go no bigger than 3/32.
When you do this, the idle-speed will immediately jump up; so, put the speed screw back to where it started. Then go back to "the right Idle-Timing" as above. The whole idea is to get the rpm down, to reduce idle power, to prevent the dreaded harsh transmission engagement, while simultaneously eliminating tip-in sag.
Ok now,
just so you know; I am confident that I could tune your combo, with a correctly installed 340 type cam, to idle at 750rpm in Neutral/Park, at between 5>12* of advance, with NO more than 100rpm drop into gear at factory stall, which will not have any tip-in sag.
And now, so can you
Finally, unclamp the brake booster, let it charge, then make sure the idle speed and quality has not changed.

Happy HotRodding

PS
1) if the reluctor is wired in reverse polarity, you can set the idle timing just fine. But like I said, as soon as the flyweights start advancing, the spark will go crazy, You can see it on the timing light. The strobes will jump back and forth and sometimes never show up at all. I have never seen this associated with anything else than wrong polarity. The pick-up belongs to a reverse rotation distributor, like a BB. Either get a correct pick-up, or better yet get two, one for spare.
Alternatively, cut your pick-up wires and solder them together in the correct polarity, but, seal them well from air and water., then shrink-tube them to prevent vibration from breaking them beside the solder-joints. Ten buy a just one spare correct polarity pick-up.
How can you tell which one is correct?
Well from Mopar they use color-coded wires. AFAIK there are three of them; grey, violet, and one other I forget the color of. You want the one with one violet wire. I cannot speak to aftermarket pick-ups.

2) E-core coils work well on CDI amps. Not so good on standard Mopar ECUs. The best daymn coil I ever got was the big Accell square top.

3) If you have a five-pin ECU wiring harness, you can run either/or the 4-pin or the 5-pin ECU with no other changes except, the dual-pin ballast is no longer required, altho it hurts nothing to leave it in the circuit, as it just dead-heads at the ECU.
4) If your fuel filter fills up with air, check your rubber jumpers. If you have clamped them with screw-clamps, they need to be doubled on each side , with screws staggered 180 degrees; ESPECIALLY when using EFI hose, as the rubber will bunch up under the screws.
Yes you can tighten the single clamps, but you will just end up squeezing the rubber thru the slots in the bands and eventually, they will leak anyway.
5) no your 340 cammed 1979 360 , does not need a 3/8ths fuel-line, on the street. but having one is Not a bad thing lol.
6) your 360, if an iron-headed lo-compression engine, will come alive with an old-style 2800 convertor. FABO guys are saying that modern convertors are more efficient, and so, even higher stalls are on the table. This will depend a lot on what rear gear you are running, and even on what transmission.
7) That 340 cam, on a 114 LSA, is a big pressure pisser. It worked in a hi-compression 340, but not so much in a low-compression 360 automatic. The cylinder pressure tanks, maybe down at 120psi, and then the bottom end goes away. But it sounds real mellow, out the pipes, and , with a hi-stall or a a manual-trans, guys are not complaining too bad. Mostly I guess cuz they've never run in the window of 185>200psi, lol..............
That's a whole nuther engine!
 
Last edited:
Oddly, it does this whether attached to the ported or the manifold vacuum ports.
The transfer slot on the carb (vertical slot) should look like a small square when in the idle position. If the throttle is open too much at idle, it will activate the ported vac port.
 
I would try swapping the distributor even if the no2 is somewhat of a junker. Might be a pickup coil issue. The vacuum can should not be an issue. The distributor should already be grounded via the clamp.

You are not hooking the vacuum can to full manifold vacuum, are you?
 
The engine responds the same whether the vacuum line is connected to the ported or manifold vacuum source.
It also does the same with 3 different carburetors including a sweet running Edelbrock 750 that allows an almost perfect idle.
 
Kern.
Post #9; the pri t/blades are open too far some reason. Looks like it has a RPM intake or copy. Does it have a hot cam> A stuck [ in the open position ] PCV might cause this problem. Too much air at idle, requiring pri t/blades to be open further to acess trans slots for extra fuel
 
It is a stock long block but has a 340 cam and a small Weiand intake.
Three different carburetors with the same issue?
I doubt that. I appreciate and understand the thinking on that but This Edelbrock didn't show this issue when it was on the 360 on this car:

IMG_9548.JPG


I have at least 5 more of these LA series electronic distributors. I may swap in another tomorrow and report back.
 
Last edited:
Does that mean that the reluctor wheel could be out of time with the rotor ?
 
I think you should rule out everything else first such as the distributor vacuum. I believe going after rotor phasing "right now" might send you down a rabbit hole. I'm not saying that might not be a problem. I'm just recommending attacking one thing, fixing it and moving on.
 

The engine responds the same whether the vacuum line is connected to the ported or manifold vacuum source.
It also does the same with 3 different carburetors including a sweet running Edelbrock 750 that allows an almost perfect idle.
What is not being changed? The distributor. I would take a HARD look at the vacuum advance canister. EASY PEASY to diagnose. BUT YOU NEED A VACUUM GAUGE LIKE I SAID IN MY FIRST POST, DAMMIT.
 
I do have a vacuum gauge....and a Mitivac. I just didn't make it out to the shop today.
The mechanical advance does work, I can see that with the timing light.
I figured it was distributor related, hence my thread being posted in the "Electrical and ignition" forum.
This issue is new to me, I've never encountered it before. I thought it may be common knowledge to someone.
 
SO then you can see it advancing AT IDLE?
The mechanical advances with rpm, the engine wants to pop and stall at idle with the vacuum line attached.
The nipple on the carb can be left off and the engine runs about the same so I know it isn't carburetor related.
 
This is what I would do:
I would;
Take the carb off, and drain it.
Check and adjust the float level to the designed level.
Holding the throttle closed to prevent the fast-idle from engaging, flip it upside down, and
With the speed screw, adjust the Primary transfer slots to a little longer/taller, than wide. and from this point on, I would NOT TOUCH THE SPEED SCREW!
I would
Close the Secondaries up tight, but not sticking.
Put the mixture screws back to 2.5 turns out.
Flip it right-side up, and reinstall it.
Test the VA to make sure the diaphragm is NOT ruptured, and put it on the spark-port. Make sure it is truly on the spark-port and not on the choke pull-off port.
If the car has a Brake booster, I would clamp off the hose for now.
I would
>Plumb the PCV to the place provided for it, at the front of the carb, just below the throttle blades.
>Use only thick-walled hose rated for PCV use. I would not plumb the PCV to the back of the intake plenum, nor to any single-intake runner. This is VERY, almost extremely important. This calibrated air-leak is the Idle-Air bypass, and that 340 cam, in a low compression ratio 360, is gonna want that bypass air. In fact, probably it will need even more air but we'll get to that later.
Finally, I would take all the slack out of the accelerator pump linkage.
Next;I would
Reset the static timing to 12*.

Now, listen carefully;
>the distributor drive gear cares not one whit to where the drive-slot is pointing. Not one tiny bit.
Every time you re-index it;
to make it work at the new location, you will simply reclock the cap to get a tower above the rotor, at the firing point of the reluctor, and rewire the cap as may be necessary, and so, the engine will run exactly the same as before you reclocked it. This is a Big waste of time, unless you just want it to be like the factory
>There are only three reasons to use the factory..... clocking. They are;
1) cuz when you do, and your cap has a "1" beside one of the towers, that tower is supposed to send the spark to the #1 cylinder, and
2) the custom-fit factory plug wires will all fit. and
3) if another DA mechanic works on it, he won't charge you an hour to re-clock it to; "well, that's where the factory put it, so they must have wanted it there for a reason" ; which reason I have already explained; just go find a new mechanic! That is all.
Go ahead everybody, prove me wrong. Criminy I figured that out over 50 years ago.
ANY TOWER, can be used as #1, but it better be the one directly above the rotor when the #1 cylinder is at TDC compression! That is all there is to it.
If it should happen
that your Vcan is hitting the Oil sender, then the daymn thing is up too high. If you have room, and if you need to, you can just re-clock the distributor to the next tower, and re-clock the wires, but leave yourself enough twisting-room to be sure you can get 36* advance at 3600rpm.
Now,
I have seen distributors, not factory ones, that when you set the static timing to 12*, the rotor-tip is quite far from a tower, and when the advance comes in, the rotor runs away from the correct tower, and the spark goes to the wrong cylinder.
And I have seen pick-ups wired in wrong polarity, that you can make idle, but as soon as the flyweights begin advancing, the spark goes berserk.
And I have seen reluctors installed on the wrong-way rotation index pin, which indexes the rotor too far out to lunch..
So there's lots of ways to get your ignition system messed up, but clocking to the oil-pump-drive slot is NOT one of them.
And BTW, the electronic ignition distributor does not require nor care about electrical grounding, so long as the pick-up remains isolated.

Ok, so, assuming the following:
> the t-slot sync is close, and
> the wet fuel level is correct and stable, and
> the coil is correct for the system and wired correctly,
> the ignition system is working as designed, and
> the PCV is working and is plumbed correctly, and
> all the air that the engine is gonna be seeing, is gonna be coming into the plenum past the throttle blades, and
> the valves are all closing and opening in the right order and at the right time, and sealing, and
>The Secondary System is known to be working,
Then
Put some gas in the bowls thru the bowl-vent, and splash a couple of teaspoons into the primaries, then put the gas pedal down half way, hold it there until the engine revs up, and CRANK IT!
The engine should lite right off!
It may rev up and then die, I would kindof expect that with an open choke. Just dribble another two teaspoons of gas down the primaries, and repeat. The second time, the mechanical fuel-pump should have finished filling the bowl, and it should run. Just sit there for a half a minute and keep the revs up at around 1500>2000. This will call the VA into play, and if yur lucky, that will bring in another 12>15 degrees timing, for a quick warm up.
After the engine has smoothed out and burned off all the fuel I dumped into the intake, now you can slowly bring the Rs down towards idle.
If the engine stalls, you will be tempted to increase the speed-screw; DON"T DO IT.
Instead, just give it more Idle-Timing.
Don't worry, at idle, your 340-cammed 360 will gladly accept tons of timing, maybe over 30>35*. just get it to idle so it can warm up. Use the fast idle cam if you have to, but do not touch the speed-screw!


Ok, after the engine is up to temperature,
and the lifters have adjusted themselves;
Kick off the fast-idle, and start backing off the Idle-Timing, towards 12*.. This number is arbitrarily chosen. You can set anywhere between say 5* and 18*. But
The right Idle Timing and T-slot sync, will be whatever timing it takes
1) to get rid of any tip-in sag, and
2) does not bang excessively into gear, and
3) gets you about 750 rpm in Neutral, and does not
drop more than 100 rpm into "Drive".
Next;
Adjust the mixture screws for best lean idle.
If this takes more than 2.5 turns out, then the engine wants a lil more fuel from the transfers.
If the mixture screws want to be at less than 2.5 turns, then the transfers are already too far open.
Adjust the speed screw in increments of 1/2 turn, until she gets happy and the rpm stabilizes..... but not more than 1 turn from the starting position.
If the engine is still rich, chances are that she wants more Idle bypass air. But, PROVE IT FIRST; check the fuel level and pressure; a high fuel level will manifest as a rich idle. If you think it's rich, PROVE IT FIRST.
I don't think the factory 340 cam, with the correct PCV valve, will want bypass air; but if it does; first prove the system is sucking air.
Then having proved that she's rich at the Synchronized slot exposure, and it's not a bad fuel-level, Ok;
I would just drill a small hole in each Primary throttle blade, beginning at 1/16" inch. I put them just back from the front edge, near to between the transfer slots and the idle discharge ports. Then test it.
I would go no bigger than 3/32.
When you do this, the idle-speed will immediately jump up; so, put the speed screw back to where it started. Then go back to "the right Idle-Timing" as above. The whole idea is to get the rpm down, to reduce idle power, to prevent the dreaded harsh transmission engagement, while simultaneously eliminating tip-in sag.
Ok now,
just so you know; I am confident that I could tune your combo, with a correctly installed 340 type cam, to idle at 750rpm in Neutral/Park, at between 5>12* of advance, with NO more than 100rpm drop into gear at factory stall, which will not have any tip-in sag.
And now, so can you
Finally, unclamp the brake booster, let it charge, then make sure the idle speed and quality has not changed.

Happy HotRodding

PS
1) if the reluctor is wired in reverse polarity, you can set the idle timing just fine. But like I said, as soon as the flyweights start advancing, the spark will go crazy, You can see it on the timing light. The strobes will jump back and forth and sometimes never show up at all. I have never seen this associated with anything else than wrong polarity. The pick-up belongs to a reverse rotation distributor, like a BB. Either get a correct pick-up, or better yet get two, one for spare.
Alternatively, cut your pick-up wires and solder them together in the correct polarity, but, seal them well from air and water., then shrink-tube them to prevent vibration from breaking them beside the solder-joints. Ten buy a just one spare correct polarity pick-up.
How can you tell which one is correct?
Well from Mopar they use color-coded wires. AFAIK there are three of them; grey, violet, and one other I forget the color of. You want the one with one violet wire. I cannot speak to aftermarket pick-ups.

2) E-core coils work well on CDI amps. Not so good on standard Mopar ECUs. The best daymn coil I ever got was the big Accell square top.

3) If you have a five-pin ECU wiring harness, you can run either/or the 4-pin or the 5-pin ECU with no other changes except, the dual-pin ballast is no longer required, altho it hurts nothing to leave it in the circuit, as it just dead-heads at the ECU.
4) If your fuel filter fills up with air, check your rubber jumpers. If you have clamped them with screw-clamps, they need to be doubled on each side , with screws staggered 180 degrees; ESPECIALLY when using EFI hose, as the rubber will bunch up under the screws.
Yes you can tighten the single clamps, but you will just end up squeezing the rubber thru the slots in the bands and eventually, they will leak anyway.
5) no your 340 cammed 1979 360 , does not need a 3/8ths fuel-line, on the street. but having one is Not a bad thing lol.
6) your 360, if an iron-headed lo-compression engine, will come alive with an old-style 2800 convertor. FABO guys are saying that modern convertors are more efficient, and so, even higher stalls are on the table. This will depend a lot on what rear gear you are running, and even on what transmission.
7) That 340 cam, on a 114 LSA, is a big pressure pisser. It worked in a hi-compression 340, but not so much in a low-compression 360 automatic. The cylinder pressure tanks, maybe down at 120psi, and then the bottom end goes away. But it sounds real mellow, out the pipes, and , with a hi-stall or a a manual-trans, guys are not complaining too bad. Mostly I guess cuz they've never run in the window of 185>200psi, lol..............
That's a whole nuther engine!
The distributor most certainly DOES CARE where the drive gear is if the vacuum advance is hitting something.....like a SENDING UNIT and stopping it from being able to be adjusted correctly. That's why I always recommend using the FSM to place the drive gear.
 
The mechanical advances with rpm, the engine wants to pop and stall at idle with the vacuum line attached.
The nipple on the carb can be left off and the engine runs about the same so I know it isn't carburetor related.
Oooooo that really answered my question.
 
Does that mean that the reluctor wheel could be out of time with the rotor ?
In a word, yes. Wrong parts, reluctor assembled wrong, wires switched. We had one thread on here, and I am convinced that the magnetic field was somehow reversed, that is, it worked properly when the wire colors were reversed and so called "connected wrong." I think this was an HEI swap, so the connector could not be "certain."
 
-
Back
Top Bottom