Reverse manual valve body questions

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70 Buster 340 said:
See lol .... Just another reason to head for neutral in a coast down. Cooler motor, clean plug read and now clean bearings too.

Clean , safe, over speed drums, disengaged bands, push the button and neutral is the new reverse, air shifting ... wheew this is getting very complicated.
Hmmm, the 3rd pedal is still in the car.... looks like that's where the fun is ... but at the cost of consistency and the cash payout.

Mama always told me not to look into the sights of the sun
Oh, but Mama, that's where the fun is
Click to expand...
Oh I did not say it is not a good idea, you just have to have the proper equipment to do it safely. I put a small oil accumulator on the motor too for the shutdown.
Oh and shiftnoid is working on a new solenoid shifter for the b&m
Pro stick shifter specifically for a reverse pattern shifter with a clean & safe neutral right after 3rd gear. I am supposed to be getting one of the first ones in the new year when they are ready. Shiftnoid claims more and more racers are going with a clean neutral valve body to warrant a new product for the shifter. FYI
 
You guys have been super helpful.. I got a lot to learn.
Glad I asked before I put the car on the track.
The seller didn't keep records but said the trans was done by JW (they're local) last winter and he said he counted 11 timeslips since.
What I know:
727
RMVB
No brake
8" converter
B&M shifter

This might be a good place to ask this... Foot braking - Is it better to leave on the (2 step) 3k chip or 'flash' the converter from about 2k or so?
 
It all depends on what ur car wants. Try a few different procedures. If u go to a trans brake u have to have a converter built for it. Kim
 
Duane said:
Acc

According to this tci press release, clean neutral and safety neutral are the same thing.

View attachment 1715397393
Click to expand...

The TCI press release does mention that they disengage the forward clutch allowing the engine to idle, but I don't see anything about retaining fluid pressure to the direct clutch.

Has it been decided? - Yellow Bullet Forums

Steve Griner:

Assuming the shift pattern is PN123N, and referring only to TH400 and 727's

The words clean and safe mean two different things. Let me try to explain.

A clean neutral is where the last neutral position dumps all the fluid pressure to all the rotating parts. The way planetary's work there is no way to control the internal parts from spinning out of control. This is can be dangerous especially with cast iron parts, for it is possible to explode the transmission.

A safe neutral directs fluid pressure to the high gear clutches while in that last neutral position, this locks all the rotating parts to the engine during the shutdown keeping all the internal parts spinning under control.

You must remember that the engine must remain running during the shutdown, A safe speed is achieved before the engine can be shut off (at least 2/3 of the speed must be scrubbed off.) Shutting off the engine to soon stops the transmission pump, this is the same as dumping the fluid, raising the risk of A transmission explosion.

Also, another interesting post from Steve Griner:

"Clean neutral" why? - Yellow Bullet Forums

Originally Posted by grinertech
viewpost.gif

I will go into a little more detail, You was being offered to purchase a valve body that would do exactly what you wanted including neutral at the finish line. What if the transmission exploded and you was badly hurt and your car was destroyed. Could that possible cause for legal action ?

You 400 turbo guys , listen up!

Next time you have one on the bench, assemble the transmission up to the center support. now mock up an empty high gear drum and the clutch hub in the transmission. take a magic marker, and in a straight line, mark the drum, hub and a spot on the case. Now with one hand turn the output shaft one revolution in the direction of engine rotation (refered to as Drive Shaft). and hold the hub from turning (refered to as Engine Idling). and watch what the high drum does. It overdrives over three times to one of the drive shaft.

Now, lets do this in real time across the finish line.

8000 RPM,s Drive shaft
1000 RPM,s Engine Idling
7000 RPM's Differential RPM,s
21000 RPM,s Overdriven Clutch Drum (over3 times)

The clutch drum explodes somewhere between 12000 and 15000 RPM,s

You say, The forward clutches come off when I put it in neutral. Your lucky, and I will take no bets.

Oh! and want A explosion prone drum more likely to explode.

Install heavier springs and drill A 1/16 air bleed hole in the high drum like they do for A transmission brake.

Just leave it in gear unless you have a safe neutral valve body that has the proper oil circuits to do this.
 
oldkimmer said:
It all depends on what ur car wants. Try a few different procedures. If u go to a trans brake u have to have a converter built for it. Kim
Click to expand...

Been racing with torque converters with transbrake that were built before transbrake were made....lol

If you are leaving on a two step at 3000 rpm or such....what is the different that the converter see if you were footing to 3000 rpm?

Using 904s...they dont explode.....but still have CRS shields are required by the rules
 
The question was to 'flashing'.
I was told the flash point is slightly higher then if you hold at car back at a full stall.
 
Our converter are flashing over 5k
..so two stepping it at 3k is ok.. looking for consistency
 
DusterW2 said:
The TCI press release does mention that they disengage the forward clutch allowing the engine to idle, but I don't see anything about retaining fluid pressure to the direct clutch.

Has it been decided? - Yellow Bullet Forums

Steve Griner:

Assuming the shift pattern is PN123N, and referring only to TH400 and 727's

The words clean and safe mean two different things. Let me try to explain.

A clean neutral is where the last neutral position dumps all the fluid pressure to all the rotating parts. The way planetary's work there is no way to control the internal parts from spinning out of control. This is can be dangerous especially with cast iron parts, for it is possible to explode the transmission.

A safe neutral directs fluid pressure to the high gear clutches while in that last neutral position, this locks all the rotating parts to the engine during the shutdown keeping all the internal parts spinning under control.

You must remember that the engine must remain running during the shutdown, A safe speed is achieved before the engine can be shut off (at least 2/3 of the speed must be scrubbed off.) Shutting off the engine to soon stops the transmission pump, this is the same as dumping the fluid, raising the risk of A transmission explosion.

Also, another interesting post from Steve Griner:

"Clean neutral" why? - Yellow Bullet Forums

Originally Posted by grinertech View attachment 1715397648
I will go into a little more detail, You was being offered to purchase a valve body that would do exactly what you wanted including neutral at the finish line. What if the transmission exploded and you was badly hurt and your car was destroyed. Could that possible cause for legal action ?

You 400 turbo guys , listen up!

Next time you have one on the bench, assemble the transmission up to the center support. now mock up an empty high gear drum and the clutch hub in the transmission. take a magic marker, and in a straight line, mark the drum, hub and a spot on the case. Now with one hand turn the output shaft one revolution in the direction of engine rotation (refered to as Drive Shaft). and hold the hub from turning (refered to as Engine Idling). and watch what the high drum does. It overdrives over three times to one of the drive shaft.

Now, lets do this in real time across the finish line.

8000 RPM,s Drive shaft
1000 RPM,s Engine Idling
7000 RPM's Differential RPM,s
21000 RPM,s Overdriven Clutch Drum (over3 times)

The clutch drum explodes somewhere between 12000 and 15000 RPM,s

You say, The forward clutches come off when I put it in neutral. Your lucky, and I will take no bets.

Oh! and want A explosion prone drum more likely to explode.

Install heavier springs and drill A 1/16 air bleed hole in the high drum like they do for A transmission brake.

Just leave it in gear unless you have a safe neutral valve body that has the proper oil circuits to do this.
Click to expand...
I think it is implied without going into all the technical details.
They specifically mention keeping the engine running, and they mention that the intent is to keep the internals from spinning up,
Which can only be done one way.
I get how the planetaries create what I call the unintended ratio
That over spins the high gear drum because the sprag is not on in 3rd gear. What I find interesting about your post is I know all kind of
Ls Mopar hemi guys that put in a turbo 400 cause they think 727s blow up and are not safe. What they don,t know is that turbo 400s can blow up too lol. I will call Joe at tranzact and verify if the pro comp nitro brake I bought from him keeps fluid pressure at the high gear drum or just releases everything. Apparently he worked with griner and co developed the griner brake. His brake looks identical
To the griner and he supplies tci and coan with his design.
 
I talked to Joe on Friday...lol

Many years ago...one of the local had a turbo 400 drum come thru the floor and out the roof...
 
Duane said:
Well good then I know he,s still around and has no excuse to not answer the phone lol.
Click to expand...
I called 5 times....lol.....He forgot to send me two solenoids for the transbrakes...or he said they shorted him cores....so he did not have any for me...lol...
 
70aarcuda said:
I called 5 times....lol.....He forgot to send me two solenoids for the transbrakes...or he said they shorted him cores....so he did not have any for me...lol...
Click to expand...
He sold you an individual solenoid? I think John cope got to him.
Cope is now selling his own version that fits on the griner and tranzact and tci. He would not sell me a spare. How much did he charge for one.
 
Dont know...i have not gotten one yet...LoL>...

yes...i saw the Cope solenoid conversion...
 
just to go back to RMVB vs FMVB shift patterns, i've always enjoyed Cope's discription of why not
"Forward manual valve body with low band apply. Not recommended for high horsepower applications
BECAUSE HIGH HORSEPOWER TRANSMISSIONS NEED A HIGH PRESSURES YOU JUST CANT GET FROM A FORWARD MANUAL PLUS, FORWARD MANUAL SHIFTS ARE FOR GIRLS. BE A MAN AND RUN A REVERSE MANUAL VALVE BODY. see shift r gates
but works well when a reverse pattern cannot be used. P R N 3 2 1 shift pattern. A low reverse billet servo kit is required with this valve body For Street chick cars only fits 1966-1980
 
kursplat said:
just to go back to RMVB vs FMVB shift patterns, i've always enjoyed Cope's discription of why not
"Forward manual valve body with low band apply. Not recommended for high horsepower applications
BECAUSE HIGH HORSEPOWER TRANSMISSIONS NEED A HIGH PRESSURES YOU JUST CANT GET FROM A FORWARD MANUAL PLUS, FORWARD MANUAL SHIFTS ARE FOR GIRLS. BE A MAN AND RUN A REVERSE MANUAL VALVE BODY. see shift r gates
but works well when a reverse pattern cannot be used. P R N 3 2 1 shift pattern. A low reverse billet servo kit is required with this valve body For Street chick cars only fits 1966-1980
Click to expand...
That's good for a laugh but I don't get it. It's all in the selector valve in the valve body. It don't care if your shifter goes forward or backwards. Lol
 
Duane said:
That's good for a laugh but I don't get it. It's all in the selector valve in the valve body. It don't care if your shifter goes forward or backwards. Lol
Click to expand...
i've always figured it has to do with how he routes the fluid flow for each application
 
kursplat said:
i've always figured it has to do with how he routes the fluid flow for each application
Click to expand...
I think the high line pressures are only on the transbrake versions.
They run substantially higher pressures than manual shift units.
I think so the car will hold properly on the line when the brake is applied without slippage.
 
Duane said:
I think it is implied without going into all the technical details.
They specifically mention keeping the engine running, and they mention that the intent is to keep the internals from spinning up,
Which can only be done one way.
I get how the planetaries create what I call the unintended ratio
That over spins the high gear drum because the sprag is not on in 3rd gear. What I find interesting about your post is I know all kind of
Ls Mopar hemi guys that put in a turbo 400 cause they think 727s blow up and are not safe. What they don,t know is that turbo 400s can blow up too lol. I will call Joe at tranzact and verify if the pro comp nitro brake I bought from him keeps fluid pressure at the high gear drum or just releases everything. Apparently he worked with griner and co developed the griner brake. His brake looks identical
To the griner and he supplies tci and coan with his design.
Click to expand...



Duane - If you get in contact with Joe, let me know what he says. I have seen the internals of a safe neutral 727 brake and there is more complexity involved by adding the safety valve and transfer plate circuitry compared to a Griner 22G20 or 22G20B brake without the 2nd Neutral.

I have also seen the inside of an older TranzAct clean neutral which basically dumped all pressure after 3rd gear. Maybe Joe has upped his game.

If you feel curious, take apart the TranzAct Nitro Comp brake and trace the circuits. Or take some pictures and send them to me. I will be glad to trace it out.

John
 
DusterW2 said:
Duane - If you get in contact with Joe, let me know what he says. I have seen the internals of a safe neutral 727 brake and there is more complexity involved by adding the safety valve and transfer plate circuitry compared to a Griner 22G20 or 22G20B brake without the 2nd Neutral.

I have also seen the inside of an older TranzAct clean neutral which basically dumped all pressure after 3rd gear. Maybe Joe has upped his game.

If you feel curious, take apart the TranzAct Nitro Comp brake and trace the circuits. Or take some pictures and send them to me. I will be glad to trace it out.

John
Click to expand...
I will call him tomorrow. It's not an issue for me if it doesn't have a safety neutral as I run an aluminum high gear drum.
But I am curious. The model I bought is his top of the line with low band apply and safe neutral. I can tell you that I see a modification
On the rooster comb. Looks like another position is added.
Are you saying that only griner had a real safe neutral brake.
 
DusterW2 said:
Duane - If you get in contact with Joe, let me know what he says. I have seen the internals of a safe neutral 727 brake and there is more complexity involved by adding the safety valve and transfer plate circuitry compared to a Griner 22G20 or 22G20B brake without the 2nd Neutral.

I have also seen the inside of an older TranzAct clean neutral which basically dumped all pressure after 3rd gear. Maybe Joe has upped his game.

If you feel curious, take apart the TranzAct Nitro Comp brake and trace the circuits. Or take some pictures and send them to me. I will be glad to trace it out.

John
Click to expand...
Now I am even more confused.
Here is a brief explanation from griners instructions.
I have heard transbrakes that require a button to be pushed to get reverse referred to as safety brakes. Griners instruction make it sound like it is the configuration of the brake that allows for safe neutral.

image.png
 
Duane said:
Now I am even more confused.
Here is a brief explanation from griners instructions.
I have heard transbrakes that require a button to be pushed to get reverse referred to as safety brakes. Griners instruction make it sound like it is the configuration of the brake that allows for safe neutral.

View attachment 1715397890
Click to expand...


Transbrakes that require the button to be depressed to engage reverse are referred to having the reverse safety feature. Meaning two actions must occur to engage reverse, 1) position shifter in reverse and, 2) press the button. Less likely to accidentally engage reverse while traveling at high speed. There are many companies making this configuration and do not have a 2nd neutral position.

The safety neutral term refers to having the 2nd neutral position after 3rd gear. There is an additional spring loaded valve that actuates when the shifter is positioned in the 2nd neutral. This exhausts pressure from all clutches/bands except direct clutch. With the direct clutch applied, it is locked to the forward clutch hub and cannot spin out of control (2.2 x engine rpm).
 
my tranzact brakes can be in neutral and engage the brake and reverse works....
 
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