Rowdy and Mean 318 build

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I haven't read all your previous posts. Why not repair the 360? Did you ruin the block? IMO with the intention of turning 6500 rpm, you should be using forged pistons. Probably a solid cam too. I don't quite understand peoples love for hyper pistons. Sure, you can fit them tighter. Big deal. A forged piston, when abused, will deform before it outright fails. A cast/hyper piston will break into pieces.

When the 360's piston broke it also cracked the cylinder wall real bad and the block was already bored out to .060" when I got it. I'm going with a 318 because I have one sitting in my garage; it's original to my Duster and has never been bored out, it was pulled when I put the 360 in. I also knew how it ran before it was pulled (burned TONS of oil but ran smooth and fairly strong considering its condition).

Forged pistons would be nice but I'm trying to keep costs down where I can and I personally don't have doubts about the strength of hypers; again the reason mine broke was repeated long-term knocking due to too much timing/cylinder pressure at low RPMs. Bear in mind I first got that engine done and fired up in 2011 and it broke just a few months ago after 25,000+ hard miles including 9 passes down the local 1/4 mile drag strip and multiple across-state road trips (CO is a pretty big state). I want to spend the money on good machine work because I think that's most important for a rebuilt engine to make good power and last a long time. I feel like the square decking is pretty necessary considering I'm using closed-chamber heads and factory tolerances for deck height/squareness were terrible.
 
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The hypers in my 367 have worked very hard since 1999. They have over 100,000 miles on them now, and the engine has been shifted at 7000 or more at least a few times every time it's been up to temp. Usually many times. I built it to be driven, and driven it gets. If it ever blows up I keep a freshened teener under wraps to tide me over as a spare 360 I also keep on hand, would get built. And I would use the hypers again.

Just thinking out loud, are the other 7 hypers still useable?............................
I mean a set of pistons is about the same as a 360 core. The core might even be cheaper.
And if the core was a Magnum........................................
 
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That cam was too small for the 360 (256/262 adv. duration Lunati Voodoo HFT) but i think it would be just right for your present combo.
No, it won't turn 6500 rpm but it will raise the rpm range because it a smaller cube eng. just like when you go to a stroker. the lopey cam before, becomes calm to the extra cubes.
I know you're not going to take my advice but i bet you wished you had of.....later.
If you want 6500 rpm the valve spring need changing, the new cam will need "valve to piston" clearance check(should be checked any ways) will need lower gears(higher numeral 2.76 to 3.91) stall converters in the 3500+ rpm range, bigger tires.
Us the cam from the 360 nothing need be changed. it will be VERY street able. BUT, will not fit you title. (rowdy-and mean-318-build.
It HAS TO be a package deal............Pick your package.
 
The hypers in my 367 have worked very hard since 1999. They have over 100,000 miles on them now, and the engine has been shifted at 7000 or more at least a few times every time it's been up to temp. Usually many times. I built it to be driven, and driven it gets. If it ever blows up I keep a freshened teener under wraps to tide me over as a spare 360 I also keep on hand, would get built. And I would use the hypers again.

Just thinking out loud, are the other 7 hypers still useable?............................
I mean a set of pistons is about the same as a 360 core. The core might even be cheaper.
And if the core was a Magnum........................................



How many beers does it take to get to 7000?????

I would bet less licks than it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop.
 
Put a cold-one on the table and put the opener beside it.Stand up straight.
In first gear, it gets to 7000 before you can even get the beer off the table, and the top of the bottle off. When I hit The spitter, you will just be getting the bottle to your mouth, and the first drops passing over your lips. And I will hit 60 mph before you will be halfway done choking that beer down. And,I may even hit 83@7000,at the top of second gear, before you can put the empty bottle back on the table, with the opener beside it. This car is well able to hit 93 (6100rpm,now), in the 1/8th @7.9seconds with a 2.2 60ft, in totally street trim.I will speculate that 83 might be 6.6 seconds.Yeah, it surprised me too!
If you spill more than 2% all over your beard or your shirt, I call that cheating. But I'll even give you a 5% spillage allowance, in case you get some reversion thru your nose. If you piss yourself laughing it's an automatic win for me. If I lose, I'll buy the next bottle.Hell, I'll even let you call GO!
Start practicing!
lol.
No disrespect of any kind implied, only in the spirit if fun, in case my humor really is as crappy as my wife says.
 
That cam was too small for the 360 (256/262 adv. duration Lunati Voodoo HFT) but i think it would be just right for your present combo.
No, it won't turn 6500 rpm but it will raise the rpm range because it a smaller cube eng. just like when you go to a stroker. the lopey cam before, becomes calm to the extra cubes.
I know you're not going to take my advice but i bet you wished you had of.....later.
If you want 6500 rpm the valve spring need changing, the new cam will need "valve to piston" clearance check(should be checked any ways) will need lower gears(higher numeral 2.76 to 3.91) stall converters in the 3500+ rpm range, bigger tires.
Us the cam from the 360 nothing need be changed. it will be VERY street able. BUT, will not fit you title. (rowdy-and mean-318-build.
It HAS TO be a package deal............Pick your package.

I hear you, that same cam was actually in my old 318 that's why I reused it for the 360 (saved me the cost of a new cam and lifters which I should have done anyway). You are correct though, I am willing to make sacrifices to street manners to pursue more outright performance. I have my '88 Fifth Avenue as a comfy street cruiser to drive when I don't feel like terrorizing the streets or race track lol (NO I will NOT be street racing I just mean messing around within legal limits). I no longer have a need for my Duster to perform double-duty as a reliable and practical/economical street car with good performance. I just want more performance now and less street lol.

These Magnum heads I plan to reuse also have the Hughes 1110 springs which match up pretty closely to the recommended valve spring specs of the Voodoo hydraulics. ALL of the cams in that product line ask for the same springs anyway, I think it has to do with the lobe ramps being the same rates since it's just the lift goes up proportionally with the duration so a bigger Voodoo cam doesn't necessarily require stiffer springs than a smaller Voodoo cam. I do know the pushrods were borderline too short in my 360 setup as it was only the last turn or so of the rocker bolt that started compressing the lifter plunger; I was able to hit valve float around 5500 RPM a few times which I think was due to the "regular" stock replacement lifters from Lunati as well as the lack of proper preload on the lifters. Besides that the old cam and set of lifters has probably 40,000 miles on it by now and to me I'd MUCH rather buy a whole new cam and lifter set for the peace of mind alone.

One more time for clarity... Drivetrain combo will be 2600-stall converter in my 904 (which already has a 6000+ RPM shift governor installed) and 3.55 gears with Sure-Grip in my 8 3/4. I may initially reuse my 28" tall street radials on my 15" Rallyes when I get it running but plans are to go down to a 27" rear tire with lower-profile rubber all around on 17" wheels so there isn't as much stagger front-to-rear which upsets handling characteristics (different roll center heights).
 
The hypers in my 367 have worked very hard since 1999. They have over 100,000 miles on them now, and the engine has been shifted at 7000 or more at least a few times every time it's been up to temp. Usually many times. I built it to be driven, and driven it gets. If it ever blows up I keep a freshened teener under wraps to tide me over as a spare 360 I also keep on hand, would get built. And I would use the hypers again.

Just thinking out loud, are the other 7 hypers still useable?............................
I mean a set of pistons is about the same as a 360 core. The core might even be cheaper.
And if the core was a Magnum........................................

See that's what I'm not sure about, I'm worried that since this was a long-term issue that kept beating on the pistons some of the others might have started developing fatigue issues, if that is even a thing with these pistons. Like I'm afraid if I put the other 7 in another engine it would be a matter of time until another one broke, unless I have it all wrong? Like does that even happen to Hyper pistons, or do they stay completely solid and never develop fatigue cracks etc. until they just break apart all at once?

I will be hanging on to those old pistons for a while regardless, I'm not going to just throw them away immediately.
 
Aluminum will gradually develop deformations and will fatigue when pushed hard at all, unlike steel and certain iron alloys that don't ever fatigue if kept under a certain stress limit. So IMHO your concerns have a real foundation in actual materials properties. Where did the one fail? At the ring lands?
 
Aluminum will gradually develop deformations and will fatigue when pushed hard at all, unlike steel and certain iron alloys that don't ever fatigue if kept under a certain stress limit. So IMHO your concerns have a real foundation in actual materials properties. Where did the one fail? At the ring lands?

Precisely, the top ring butted (pulled it out in 2 pieces) and popped a chunk off the ring land. Here let me get a pic of it...
 
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Precisely, the top ring butted (pulled it out in 2 pieces) and popped a chunk off the ring land. Here let me get a pic of it...

That is a classic example of detonation. Hypers don't fail unless things are wrong. Hypers will take ALOT of rpm and cylinder pressure. You have to manage the heat properly with a hyper. Butting rings will kill any piston. J.Rob
 
That cam was too small for the 360 (256/262 adv. duration Lunati Voodoo HFT) but i think it would be just right for your present combo.
No, it won't turn 6500 rpm but it will raise the rpm range because it a smaller cube eng. just like when you go to a stroker. the lopey cam before, becomes calm to the extra cubes.
I know you're not going to take my advice but i bet you wished you had of.....later.
If you want 6500 rpm the valve spring need changing, the new cam will need "valve to piston" clearance check(should be checked any ways) will need lower gears(higher numeral 2.76 to 3.91) stall converters in the 3500+ rpm range, bigger tires.
Us the cam from the 360 nothing need be changed. it will be VERY street able. BUT, will not fit you title. (rowdy-and mean-318-build.
It HAS TO be a package deal............Pick your package.

The extra cubes will not calm the cam one IOTA. This post as whole is very good however. J.Rob
 
A while ago I posted a thread about my 360 having broken in my '70 Duster (busted piston). Well now I'm getting ready to send the 318 block originally out of the car to the machine shop for prepping. The bottom end will be pretty straightforward; zero-decked block, possible overbore, hone with torque plates, factory crank and rods, full rotating assembly balance. I'll be putting in a set of KB167s; even though the piston in my 360 that broke was also a KB Hyper I understand it wasn't the piston's fault it broke (too much low-RPM cylinder pressure and detonation). Question: are my 360 connecting rods any stronger than the 318 ones?

I plan to reuse the stock Magnum heads that were on my 360, depending on how much extra I can spend I may take them to a local head porter and have them checked out for damage and possibly a valve job. I may even try my hand at a light porting job if I can find a junk head to practice on first. Point being I've read that stock Magnums support up to 400 HP and I want to get my 318 as close to that level as possible. I originally thought even with my Hughes retainers the max valve lift could only be around .525"; after checking, double and then triple-checking I found with a set of calipers that the distance between the bottom of the retainer (actually the valve locks as they poke out the bottom a bit) was a smidge over .560"!! That means I can safely run a much bigger cam with these heads than I thought but I know Magnums tend to "stall" in flow when they get much over .500" lift.

So that leaves cam and valvetrain... I had the smaller 256/262 adv. duration Lunati Voodoo HFT in my 360 and it was a torque monster. The rest of the drivetrain will consist of a 2600-stall converter in front of my 904 and 3.55 gears in the 8 3/4 rear end. I'm thinking of using the 268/276 cam which is advertised to have a power range of 1800-6200 RPM but with the 1.6 rockers the lift gets bumped up to .527" intake and .547" exhaust which may 'stretch' the power band just a bit? I'm also going to take the time to get the pushrod length spot-on and I plan to use Crower (best manufacturing tolerances from my 'research') Cam-Saver lifters (extra cam lobe oiling just for reliability) so I can rev this thing solidly to 6500 RPM on a regular basis.

I'll be reusing the RPM Air-Gap intake off my 360 as well as the Hedman shorty headers going into 2 1/4" head pipes (biggest I could fit around the steering/t-bars) and 2 1/2" exhaust with X-pipe after that. I'm not sure what to do for carburetion though; my 360 had a 750 cfm Street Demon carb that was just a hair too big on the primary side and that engine pulled a LOT of vacuum which made it difficult to get the transitional response just right; it idled at 900 RPM in gear with the throttle blades closed farther than I would have preferred. The 2.94 rear gears with 28" tires and factory 2100-stall converter definitely didn't help. You think it'll be too big for this smaller-but-much-higher HP engine? I'm tempted to just get a 650 vac. secondary Holley as I don't need the "Street" aspect of the Demon carb anymore.

More ideas to come along with progress pics; hopefully when I get paid at the end of the month I'll have enough reserve cash to drop the block, crank and rods at the machine shop to get checked out and not be afraid I'll be out of money when it's all done and ready.
Was your 360 a roller cam engine or Magnum?
 
The extra cubes will not calm the cam one IOTA. This post as whole is very good however. J.Rob
Why" it will make it rpm out sooner or lower and will have more idle vac, hence calm it down....NO?
feel me in whats wrong with that statement........
 
1975 360 LA block with Magnum head conversion
I have a 96 5.9 magnum with this cam Voodoo Hydraulic Roller Cam - Chrysler 273-360 (W/ Long Snout) 258/264 - Lunati Power (the roller version of a similar cam) and am having the same problem with detonation. Seems to be a problem with that grind (or a mix of higher compression and lower duration) and some more overlap would definitely help bleed off some of that cylinder pressure. Had to mix half a can of race gas mix with a tank of 91 octane gas which seems to have stopped it but I sure hope I don't bust a piston like happened to you.
 
I have a 96 5.9 magnum with this cam Voodoo Hydraulic Roller Cam - Chrysler 273-360 (W/ Long Snout) 258/264 - Lunati Power (the roller version of a similar cam) and am having the same problem with detonation. Seems to be a problem with that grind (or a mix of higher compression and lower duration) and some more overlap would definitely help bleed off some of that cylinder pressure. Had to mix half a can of race gas mix with a tank of 91 octane gas which seems to have stopped it but I sure hope I don't bust a piston like happened to you.

The maximum Scr to run with this cam is about 9.4, to get a Dcr of 8.0@160psi. This should run on 91 no problem with iron closed-chamber heads. If it doesn't;you may be feeding it timing too fast,or too much,or possibly the carb is off, or it is just too heavily loaded, or running too hot.
It's not the lack of overlap that "bleeds off compression but rather the intake closing angle. Yours might be close to 55*ABDC. A bigger cam might close at 65 or even 75. These bigger cams allow the piston,at low rpm, to push some intake charge back up into the intake, thus giving up some Dcr (EDIT: correction EFFECTIVE compression). Once the engine gets wound up a little, usually a bit over 2000 rpm, there is no longer time for the air-charge to turn around and go back. At this point, the Scr becomes the limiting factor as to freedom from detonation.So from here to about 3400 rpm,(EDIT; or perhaps up to 3600) the ignition timing may be critical.
As the engine reaches peak torque,it will be pulling in a maximum amount of air per cycle. Then as the engine continues up the rpm scale, the available time to pull in air is continually shrinking.This is when the extra duration of a big cam starts to pay off.It stretches the available "time", by stealing it from the ends of the cycle.
You may know all this,IDK, but I think it's important to mention where the "bled" cylinder pressure goes.
During overlap, when both valves are open,the headers are tugging on the plenum, trying to get the AF charge moving early. The piston is stopped or very nearly stopped at the top of the cylinder. Then when the piston moves down and the exhaust finally closes, the charge is already moving into the chamber. There is no compression being "bled off" here.
EDIT; added
With manifolds there is no tugging, and that is why we don't use them in hi-output engines.Where is the switch? Well the factory boys thought manifolds were good enough for 340s. They were probably right; the 268/276/114 cam only had 44* of overlap, so not a lot of tug happening there. But if you tighten that same cam up to 108, then the overlap is up to 56*, and this should show a good improvement, with headers starting to tug pretty good. The 292/108 cam has 76* of overlap, and properly set up,the headers are now seriously tugging.In fact, by now, the overlap period can become more powerful than the actual intake cycle. And that is why high overlap cams use so much fuel at low rpm, the headers are tugging the AF charge right across the top of the piston and out the port and down the pipe to the atmosphere, unburned. But they sure sound good doing it!
Hope that helps.
 
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Precisely, the top ring butted (pulled it out in 2 pieces) and popped a chunk off the ring land. Here let me get a pic of it...
I doubt that the rings 'butted' actually (by which I assume you mean they expanded and the gap closed shut) ..... the shock(s) will just shatter the ring(s) and the top land, and sometimes down into the 2nd land or all over the piston top.
 
I have a 96 5.9 magnum with this cam Voodoo Hydraulic Roller Cam - Chrysler 273-360 (W/ Long Snout) 258/264 - Lunati Power (the roller version of a similar cam) and am having the same problem with detonation. Seems to be a problem with that grind (or a mix of higher compression and lower duration) and some more overlap would definitely help bleed off some of that cylinder pressure. Had to mix half a can of race gas mix with a tank of 91 octane gas which seems to have stopped it but I sure hope I don't bust a piston like happened to you.
More overlap is not the real answer; that will dilute the intake charge at low and middle RPM's, not bleed off compression. It's not just the cam grind... it is the combination with your SCR as AJ points out.

Case in point: I've run a NARROWER .050" duration cam with 10+ SCR but that particular cam had a long trailing intake closure to keep the final DCR down; it was designed to work as a retrofit cam for better economy in high compression engines (old Crane HE cams). It had an intake closure of 60* at .005" tappet lift while yours has an intake closure angle of 55* at .004" tappet lift, which is more like 53* at .005" tappet lift. So your cam has a really early intake closing angle.

IMHO, for you, I'd retard the cam 4-6 degrees and/or put in a thicker head gasket (unless it kills quench), or just change cams. That cam has 6 degrees ground in advance! Edit to add: Or look at the ignition timing....
 
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I'm surprised Lelo is having issues with that cam. It looks pretty mild for a 360. Did he mention what his SCR was?
 
Not that I saw, TMM. Standard magnum is in the low 9's (real SCR) so your question is a good one. DCR works out to 7.8-7.9 with that cam installed dot-to-dot with a standard 5.9 Magnum so if he has upped the SCR any, then he is entering territory where one has to keep a good eye on things to avoid detonation.

It is not the 'mildness' that is the issue...and keep in mind that the longer 3.58" stroke pushes CR higher than the 3.31" stroke.
 
I think timing is the key here.......But it just might need a quart of water ported down the intake at 2500 rpm to steam clean the carbon of the piston.
If this fixes the problem.........probably running to rich on the carb.
 
I have read that in some cases,adding a thicker head gasket will put the engine into detonation, cuz the tight Q is lost.They say Q is most effective between .050 and .035.Or less. And they say that Q between .050 and .080 is detonation prone.And they say that Q in excess of .080 is no longer Q.
Since I am not an engine builder, I have no way of verifying that.
I can tell you that with Eddies,I can run 87E10 at 11.3Scr with a 292/108 cam and .031Q. And
I can run 87E10 still with Eddies, at 10.9Scr with a 276/286/110 cam and .033Q. this cam has about 61* of overlap,(LELO; just a bit more than yours)
In both cases I could run 36* of timing,detonation free. I choose to run less, cuz it makes no difference to my butt-dyno. That engine now has over 100,000 miles on it,so the jury I think, is in. My engine vacuum peaks at 2200rpm, so I am careful to not put too much power-timing in there, from 2200 to 3400. But at PT (part throttle) I pour the coals to it with a 22* Vcan, and a manual timing control that has a plus/minus range of 7.5 degrees. So at 2200 while cruising the engine may be enjoying 53 degrees,or more, of cruise timing. But unlike most hot rodders, I only run 14* at idle.With the DB timing device, I might crank it back to 6, to idle her down on the parking lot.This very useful to idle a stick car at a very slow mph.With my combo,600rpm is 4.4mph, with clutch fully engaged.
 
Regarding Lelo Dart's issue, if it is a stock Magnum long block there is basically no effective quench, the pistons sit too far down to reach close enough to the head surface at TDC. Always irritated me about stock Magnum engines, kind of defeats the point of having closed-chamber heads.
 
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