SB 727 fluid question

[mad dog]

Thanks everyone for all your suggestions and advice, even though my tranny builder suggested max life cuz thats what he runs in his race car i still wanted some more opinions from other sources, i like to cover all the bases and do some research, trust but verify kind of thing. Now my builder seems to know his way around the 727 but like mentioned i bet hes no oil expert so i post an oil question here and like magic i find Scuder who is an oil/lube expert and he offers up some solid info, much appreciated by the way.
I dont see any problem with multiple opinions and i value all of them, ive asked many questions here on FABO and always seem to get solid advice.....

 

[MMissile]

Okay, what WOULD you recommend for a transbrake?
Mine is a glide w/brake, behind a 500hp smallblock, and I'm planning on a 400 with a brake behind a stout 540.
Used F in the glide, no complaints, other than the first converter blowing itself to pieces internally.
(Oops, forgot. Both strip/street, about 80/20)

ATI Super-F. Comes in several weights. I run 30wt.

 

[Dana67Dart]

This entire post is useless, sorry, its has turned into a who's is bigger contest!

@mad dog your initial question has be answered several times by several people

SUMMERY... there is no one BEST fluid.

 

[junkyardhero]

SUMMERY... there is no one BEST fluid.

*newbumturkey bursts thru the door*
*adjusts glasses*

well aktshually...

 

[Desoto291hemi]

*newbumturkey bursts thru the door*
*adjusts glasses*

well aktshually...

“Well aktshually “.

Was that an imitation of Lou Anne Poovey from Gomer Pyle ?
Pretty darn funny , either way .

Tommy

 

[Swinger 340]

I always ran type F.

Type "F" is my go too fluid. Been using it in over 50 years in my two 340's (one is a putter and the other I ran hard) and never had a fluid issue.

 

[Mattax]

i see your point, however my question still remains: if i entrust somebody to do work for me, why wouldn't i take their advice on the care and feeding?

like if i built something for you, told you what fluid to put in and you ran something else and you rolled it back all blowed up... i'm going to assume that you didn't heed the rest of my advice like how to properly install the torque converter, how to fill it or set up and adjust the kickdown, etc.

i understand and appreciate that there are more and better products out there, but why go against the advice of the person who you trusted to do the high dollar work in the first place?

I agree with your point, but have also seen guys who were very competent mechanically but didn't know much about other aspects. For example good radiator repair guys that weren't aware that universal coolants really aren't good to use with soldered copper heaters and radiators. Or good fabricators in wood or metal that didn't know the ins and outs of stains and finishes in terms of long term protection.

Thanks everyone for all your suggestions and advice, even though my tranny builder suggested max life cuz thats what he runs in his race car i still wanted some more opinions from other sources, i like to cover all the bases and do some research, trust but verify kind of thing.

Well now that's interesting he uses it in his race car. Drag racing is sort of unique in some ways. A lot racers prefer an unmodified ATF for racing. They also tend to change fluids more frequently that joe average.

This is a little summary I made for myself after looking at various writeups on ATF and also looking at manufactures spec sheets like the one posted by S'cuder.

Type F.
The only unmodified ATF with a dynamic coefficient that increases as clutches and bands lock up - resulting in firmer shifts. Drawback is that the fluid doesn't hold up as long.

Dexron and Mercon - a chronology.
Gleanings from the web which appear to be more substantial than wild rumors, but you've been warned.
Dexron II 1973 - 1987
Dexron IIe was for electronic controls & had extra cleaning agents.
Mercon 1992- Contained less wax than Dexron
Dexron III c.1993 - Similar to Mercon. Lower low temperature viscosity than earlier versions of Dexron. Said to have better oxidation resistance and improved seal life.

ATF+3, ATF+4.
Similar to Dexron but formulated specifically for Chrysler transmission control modules.
*All of the manufacturer spec sheets I found on-line seemed to agree - NOT recommended for DEX 3 applications.* This was over 10 years ago. Look at a current spec sheet and then you can decide.

Dexron VI. This was GM's latest standard (c 2008). By definition, Dex VI is fully synthetic and has the lowest low temperature viscosity. That could be great for street and the first autocross run of the day. Several manufacturers specifically list it as backward compatible to Dex III and Dex II. It's expensive, and if you have lingering doubts about using it, that cynicism seems reasonable to me.

I've used Dex II and III, Type F, ATF+, Dex VI at one time or another in my own 727 and 904s. The only one that I was really unhappy with how it seemed to effect the shifting was a ATF+3/+4.

edit: The current wikipedia page on Dexron seems very thorough. DEXRON - Wikipedia
and according to this thread, is maintained by a Weber State prof John Kelly.

 

[340six]

I like wraps.

LMAO

Cheap Chinese with mystery meat.
And Walmart oil who cares what's in them. They both work.

 

[340six]

Oh and I used +4
I was scared to Google Tranny Fluid

 

[Swinger 340]

Not sure how many times someone can tell you ATF+4.
But that is what Chrysler recommends for their transmission's, new and old. So I will say it again ATF+4. As far as manufacturer ? Well that has been answered already as well.
Are you waiting for someone to get blue in the face ? ATF+4.

For a stock auto I would use the ATF+ 4 as recommended by Chrysler, but in a tranny that is designed to be a fighter, I would use the Type "F". I'm not saying other replacements would not work but I know by experience the Type "F" will work for you. I use the recommended ATF+4 in my 5.9, 05' Cummins with no issues. It's all stock.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Cheap Chinese with mystery meat.
And Walmart oil who cares what's in them. They both work.

WalMart Super Tech fluids consistently test well.

 

[340six]

WalMart Super Tech fluids consistently test well.

The Oil Geek said it's good stuff. He has tested it.

 

[MILO]

Synthetic oil runs cooler It sure cooled my shop air compressor that ran hot

 

[MMissile]

You guys couldn't agree on a shared pizza order..

Who shares pizza?

 

[Johnny Dart]

For a stock auto I would use the ATF+ 4 as recommended by Chrysler, but in a tranny that is designed to be a fighter, I would use the Type "F". I'm not saying other replacements would not work but I know by experience the Type "F" will work for you. I use the recommended ATF+4 in my 5.9, 05' Cummins with no issues. It's all stock.

Type F is for Foads.
No thanks.

 

[Swinger 340]

Type F is for Foads.
No thanks.

Sometimes, Ford has a better idea. Not sure about a Foad.

 

[Johnny Dart]

Sometimes, Ford has a better idea. Not sure about a Foad.

Like I said Foad.
The fact is type f is a dinosaur, archaic fluid from the 60's for Foads, with seriously inferior performance by just about every measure, compared to ATF+4. People put it in their torqueflite transmissions because of the so-called called "harder shifts", the Sheep hear this, and then follow. It works great until it doesn't, which mostly just shows how rugged the torqueflite transmission is. The fact is, ATF+4 is a far superior fluid across the board, and is the recommended fluid by Chrysler Engineering. Happy Foading !!!!!!

 

[middleagecrisis]

Looks like we can throw Transmission Fluids into the same category as Engine Oils, 318 vs. 360, and Spark Plugs. Everybody has different opinions, and you'll never get a single answer. Too many variables (Stock, High Performance, Race, transmission internals, etc.), but if you want a thread with legs, good subjects to ask a question!

 

[Swinger 340]

Looks like we can throw Transmission Fluids into the same category as Engine Oils, 318 vs. 360, and Spark Plugs. Everybody has different opinions, and you'll never get a single answer. Too many variables (Stock, High Performance, Race, transmission internals, etc.), but if you want a thread with legs, good subjects to ask a question!

Kinda like if someone ask you, "what's your favorite dinner". You will get hundreds of answers. Depends on the time of the year and who is cooking it.

 

[Mattax]

When someone states 'fact' one ought to check the facts before making broad generalizations.
The easy way to find out if an oil product was intended for an application is check with the manufacturer.
This may not be the final word, but certainly would be a recommendation that can be documented as a fact.
It goes without saying that some manufacturers will push the limits of what is acceptible to broaden sales and others will make conservative recommendations to limit liability, and so forth.

Lets take a quick look at Valvoline since one of their ATFs was the one recommended by the builder and then discourgaged by one of our members who had been involved in the business.

MaxLife Multi-Vehicle
On the webpage it says
"Whether your vehicle has a CVT or traditional automatic, Valvoline MaxLife Multi-Vehicle ATF is suitable for a broad range of transmissions including Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Subaru, BMW, Mercedes, Volvo, VW and Audi vehicles. It’s specifically recommended for use in the following applications: GM DEXRON-II, DEXRON-III, DEXRON-VI, and DEX-CVT; Ford MERCON LV;..."

But note on the spec sheet it advises that this product has not been evaluated or endorsed by any manufacturer. It goes on to suggest customers wanting a specific spec fluid to buy one of those.

ATF+4 Full Synthetic
on the webspage it states
"Valvoline ATF +4 is suitable for most Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep and other Stellantis (formerly FCA) vehicles with automatic transmissions that require ATF +4 fluid. It’s fully back-serviceable for use wherever ATF +, ATF +2 or ATF +3 is specified"
Pretty much says its suitable for transmissions requiring ATF+ fluids, but no mention of Dexron applications.
The product spec sheet is even more specific.
It's designed as a factory refill for 1998 and newer Chrysler transmissions.

Dexron VI/Mercon LV
Statement on the webpage claims
"It’s also fully back-serviceable, so it can be used wherever Dexron-II and/or Dexron-III are recommended and is specifically recommended for Dexron-VI, Dexron-II, Dexron-III; Mercon LV; and Allison C-4."

This is also stated on the product specification sheet in several ways.

For those who want to compare some of the fluid properties, some of that info is also on the product sheets.
Most of us aren't that expert to know how the numbers may effect our torqueflite, but we can see there are similarities and differences.

Lots of manufacturers and each has choices within their product lines. A little time on the web will at least let you know what they claim and/or recommend.

 

[Bewy]

When I read all these different properties of ATFs, I wonder what varies so much between transmission brands. Clutch/band material? Seals? The steel & alum used...

 

[Newbomb Turk]

When I read all these different properties of ATFs, I wonder what varies so much between transmission brands. Clutch/band material? Seals? The steel & alum used...

Any more, with these older transmissions the fluid doesn’t really matter.

What matters is the performance of the transmission and TBOC and TBO. There is a HUGE difference in that between oils.

Just because a builder says use brand X oil doesnt mean the builder has done his due diligence on the oil.

When I was dealing with oils on a daily basis, when you finally got down to the nut cutting you’d learn that the recommendation came about through a line of other guys saying they ran brand X oil and never had a failure.

99% of them never even tried a different oil, let alone did actual testing on any oil.

And the same old, same old continues on. And the biggest defenders of brand X or Y or Z oils have little experience with oils and have done zero actual testing. But they damn well sure know oils.