slant six starting problems

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I tested with AC as Dart 67 273 had suggested because previously I tested DC .
I will try more testing as you both have given some ideas and respond.
I also am only getting a small spark when testing the - side of the coil to ground.
Thanks again.
 
The harness connector for the ignition switch ( below the column ) is as much suspect as the switch itself. It is white plastic, as is the engine harness connector under the hood, so if there is burning its fairly easily seen.
 
I tried jumpering from the battery to the positive side of the coil and this did not work. Also, I checked the red wire under the hood and it looks fine.
Thanks.
 
Mike and I spent some time on the phone today while he and his son did various tests. Here is what was measured:

Battery, ign on: 12.2V
Battery, cranking: 10.7 V

Ballast ign feed (dark blue), ign on: 11.5v
Ballast ign feed (dark blue), cranking: 7.2v
Ballast ign feed (dark blue), cranking with alt field and VR disconnected (for possible alt shorts): 8.5V

Coil +, ign on: 6v
Coil +, cranking: 8.8v
Coil + brown feed wire at ballast end of wire, cranking: 9.3V

+ power feed to ECU (dark blue/yel) ign on: 10.5v
+ power feed to ECU (dark blue/yel) cranking: 6.7V
+ power feed to ECU (dark blue/yel) with ECU disconnected ign on: 11.4v
+ power feed to ECU (dark blue/yel) with ECU discoinnected cranking: 7.2V

Relutctor test with Fluke 12 meter on AC mode, 10V scale: .048 VAC !?!?!
The above test with leads reversed to the reluctor: .030 VAC !?!?!
Reluctor gap set to .008" with a bit of shaft play present; Mike can describe best.

The tests up 'til to the reluctor look reasonable but the reluctor looks pretty suspect. If anyone can spot anything odd elsewhere in these readings, please let Mike know.
 
You need 12 volts. Where there is a 4 post dual ballast resistor and 5 pin ecu, that ecu does operate on less than 12 volts BUT, the problem with resistors is their ignorance. If it reduces voltage by 2 volts, 12 volts in becomes 10 volts out. Logically 10 volts in would be only 8 volts out.
Where there is a 4 pin ecu that operates on 12 volts, it needs 12 volts.
The 10.7 at battery when cranking has me wondering... Is the battery is bad or just drained from repeated cranking efforts ? It aint 12 volts regardless. Is the starter drawing all the amps available from that battery ?
 
This is a fairly new battery from last year. I just hooked up a charger for the night to charge it back up. We have been cranking the motor several times throughout the day. I believe this is why it was so low.

Thanks for the help.
 
Are all voltage measurements relative to BATT- at the top post of the battery itself (not the terminal)? Is BATT+ above measured at the post or the terminal side? I once measured an 8 V drop between the BATT+ post and the cable. My wife had called, stuck in a parking lot, w/ a "no crank" situation. After measuring, I removed and cleaned the post & terminal, then got 12 V at the terminal and it cranked and fired instantly.

Some of the voltages above seem a bit low. What really matters for the spark system, is all voltages measured relative to the case of the ECU, since that is the return path. If you read and followed prior posts, you already ran a dedicated ground to the case, so it should maintain the same voltage as BATT-, but prove that with a multimeter.
 
With 12.2v at the battery with ign on only, the battery is not fully charged. A drop to 10.7 cranking does not shock me for a good but partly discharged battery. Forgive the pun.....lol

The only thing I do not know for sure is if this particular multimeter is responding properly to any reluctor pulses; an older analog meter would be more confidence inspiring. But, digtial the multimeter readings are so low as to be just low level noise with no actual pulses, so that part is very probably the problem. It should be noted that the the reluctor output by itself has no dependence on the battery voltage whatsoever.

The symptom of a hot ballast + no spark at all while cranking adds up to the ECU not opening the - coil circuit to generate the spark (or a shorted coil - wire to ground, which dies not appear to be the issue), and which is consistent with no reluctor pulses. A reluctor failing when hot and progressively getting worse is consistent with that type of part too. The fact that a good spark is apparently generated when the ignition is turned off also seems consistent; the ECU shuts off with the ign siwtch and the coil current is interrupted and that spark is created. That is the present diagnosis/edcuated guess/whatever you want to call it....
 
Those voltages are low. Cranking voltage at coil + needs to be MIN of 10V that is while cranking.

Top suspects in order of "suspect" are

bulkhead connector

ignition switch connector

ignition switch

ammeter connections

internals of ammeter

welded harness splice (this is a factory welded splice in the black ammeter wire up in the harness

I thought you tried this earlier?

Take a BIG clip lead. Make one if necessary...........out of no 14 wire. Jumper from starter battery post direct to coil + terminal while cranking and see if spark "comes back" or engine will start.

Also have you checked high tension coil wire with an ohmeter?


Remove the ECU, scrape the firewall and flange clean and remount with star lock washers. The ECU MUST be grounded.

I can not remember which wire. If you ground one or t' other of the distributor connector to ECU wires, with key on, the ECU will produce a spark each time. Try each wire.

Remove all connectors, the ECU, the distributor, the ballast, and inspect visually for corrosion carefully. Work in/ out several times to scrub clean and to "feel" for tightness. Do this ESPECIALLY to the distributor

Inspect the distributor for rust, debri and strike damage. Obtain a brass feeler gauge, O'Reallys had them. Set the gap at .008", that's inches not metric. Set your meter on low AC, not DC volts and hook to the distributor connector, crank the engine. The distributor should produce 1V AC

With key on, the transistor / heat sink and coil should become warm, as should the ballast, showing they are drawing current. Voltage at coil + will be somewhat low, perhaps anywhere from 5-8V. Voltage at coil NEG will be quite low, anywhere from just above zero to 1-2V. You "would like" to see voltage at "key" side of ballast at "same as" battery, the higher the better.

Voltage at coil+ WHEN CRANKING should be close to battery, and in no case below 10V
 
Starting at a good battery there is a big red cable that will run the heck out of a starter. The rest of the car is running on a different smaller wire. You have to have 12 volts on it too.
It's ironic that only 6 volts on the yellow wire will close a starter relay.
but anyway.. Good luck with it.
 
67Dart273 said:
Take a BIG clip lead. Make one if necessary...........out of no 14 wire. Jumper from starter battery post direct to coil + terminal while cranking and see if spark "comes back" or engine will start.

Also have you checked high tension coil wire with an ohmeter?

I can not remember which wire. If you ground one or t' other of the distributor connector to ECU wires, with key on, the ECU will produce a spark each time. Try each wire.
Click to expand...

FYI, a jumper was placed from battery + to the power feed to the ballast while cranking (dark lblue wire) to put full batt voltage on the ballast. But it was not tried directly to the Coil +.

The coil - was grounded Del, and it only sparked weakly. Not sure why not, as there was a strong spark when the ignition was turned off, adn ballast gets hot with ignition on. Coil is new. The grounding of either wire from the distributor was not tried.

No comment on the essentially 0 volts AC out of the reluctor when it was turned (cranking) as measured?
 
So I really appreciate all the comments and help I have received from each of you. Here is where it stands. I bought remanufactured distributor and put it in as a new coil pickup was 27 and the complete distro was 40. It worked. Fired up and is running strong with just a small issue. When I put the distributor back in the timing marks are about two inches away from TDC with a timing light.. Am I a tooth off? This style distributor has the gear on the end and seems unlike other I have dealt with that are right on or 180 out. Can I just move this a tooth at a time until it gets close to TDC? I pulled the number 1 plug and got compression and set the disributor pointed at 1. When it started, the mark was far from close but running great.

Thanks
 
Rotating the distributer body moves the timing mark shown by a timing light.
That marks should be shown at least 10 degrees before top dead center.
Don't lift the distributer again before you know for sure its necessary.
Read up on setting timing first.
 
Good deal! Glad to hear it!

As Redfish suggested, do a search for setting timing; I can't recall the exact details at this time in the morinng! It involves pulling the vaccum line from the distributor and plugging, and then setting timing. There should be marks on the pulley or the fixed reference plate that tell the number of degrees; that can all be looked up. You should be able to rotate the distributor some with the base bolt loosened, but if it is all the way at one end of the available rotation and stil not right, then, yes, pull it up and move the shaft one tooth.
 
That is where I am at. The distributor cannot rotate any more and the timing mark is way off. I will try moving it a tooth and see what happens.
I really appreciate everyone's time and effort helping me and especially Mark for walking me through the tests as I am a rookie. My son is thrilled he finally gets to take it out and drive it and leave his brand new car at home. He asked if I would trade him cars last night for his birthday. You got to love that.
 
Is it possible the timing at the cam has slipped? That is, the chain? There is a procedure in the service manual to find out.

Download one here:

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?p=1970088617

There are ways to compensate for the distributor gear

You can move the plug wires one position or the other on the cap

There's a additional slot under the distributor just like the one you see on the block:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/slantsixgoon/turbinator/S6301940.jpg

Make sure the distributor drive gear is not damaged, as it is plastic
 
mewk61 said:
My son is thrilled he finally gets to take it out and drive it and leave his brand new car at home. He asked if I would trade him cars last night for his birthday. You got to love that.
Click to expand...
LOL, that is priceless! Your son has a bright future!:burnout:
 
here is the latest and last on this. I pulled the distributor and was able to loosen the screw to rotate the plate enough to get the timing around where I need it.
Everything is great with the exception of a dead spot that I am reading up on to try a few things to fix.
I have all of the Ca. emissions stuff on the car and I am going to start removing it to see if it helps. I have retarded and advanced the timing and played witht the air screw. Nothing seemed to help.
But at least it is running and time to move to the next issue.
 
realize the harmonic balancer has a rubber busing or whatever you would call it, the balancer is a 2 piece part abd it can slip and throw off your timin marks. bring it up to tdc and check to see if mark there is correct. thius can help sometimes.
 
So I have no fuel squirting from the accelerator pump. Time to tear it off and re-build.....Again. I might have screwed something up when I put the carb kit in it. We will get it yet.
 
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