Solar Panels, for CIVIL discussion

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The discussion is "Solar Panels, for CIVIL discussion" not "Solar Panels, only what aspects Dmopower want's discussed".

Financing solar is a huge part of the topic. Id's say it IS the topic as the technology has been around for decades and really does not confuse anyone on a nuts and bolts level. Most people run the numbers, have a look at the number of years it would take to break even.. and take a hard pass. The math is not the same for everyone. But if it made sense more people would be doing it without the massive $$ infusions and gubberment mandates. We don't hate our money or keeping more of it.
Sooooooo no you can't make a valid point and move on even after everyone on the site agrees the subsidies are an issue. Good job. Here let me try this one more way.

The subsidies part of this sux. An adult should be able to read that, understand nobody is disagreeing with them and move on.

More people ARE doing it. Nobody said it's for everyone. I even posted earlier that they are NOT for everyone everywhere.
 
They aren't less toxic. The contribution from mining and the PM2.5 which results are on-par if not in excess of what coal mining and burning creates. Windmills are even worse, mostly due to the fiberglass dust that gets generated by manufacturing.
PM2.5 is far more dangerous than any other atmospheric emissions allowed, but of course we ignore it because the mining is 'exportable' to places where the general public doesn't see or feel it. Yay for 3rd worlds.
No one really wants to talk about the reality of these "green" products. The mining, processing and refinement of the rare earth metals is an ecological disaster.

China mineral processing
china mineral processing.jpg


Lithium leech fields
Lithium Fields.png
 
Sooooooo no you can't make a valid point and move on even after everyone on the site agrees the subsidies are an issue. Good job. Here let me try this one more way.

The subsidies part of this sux. An adult should be able to read that, understand nobody is disagreeing with them and move on.

More people ARE doing it. Nobody said it's for everyone. I even posted earlier that they are NOT for everyone everywhere.
Missed the vote where "everyone" elected you their spokesperson.

I've kept my responses both on topic and civil.

I'll continue to post as I like.
 
No one really wants to talk about the reality of these "green" products. The mining, processing and refinement of the rare earth metals is an ecological disaster.

China mineral processing
View attachment 1716057191

Lithium leech fields
View attachment 1716057192
That is a large reason why I bought US panels and don't have battery back up. Then when it's all done they throw it on a fossil fuel ship for 3000 miles.
 
Missed the vote where "everyone" elected you their spokesperson.

I've kept my responses both on topic and civil.

I'll continue to post as I like.
Beat the dead horse if you must. I'm sure folks want to read 40 of your posts crying about the same exact thing. Good job.
 
If the whole push for this is to lower carbon emissions, how much carbon would be sequestered by a one hundred plus year old forest where the panel array is installed, versus the clean power and maintaining and replacing panels during that time?

Legit question, I don't know.

Part of the problem is that some have boiled the question down to only carbon. But when it comes to 'harm reduction', carbon isn't the only factor. Even if the solar panel offset the same amount of carbon (it probably does in some places, and solar can also go where we've already going to rip out the environment), the dust and other pollutants released are non-zero, and in some cases are alarmingly large.

Part of the problem is that eggheads simply want everything to BE electric and try to kill all markets for fossil fuels, because harm reduction isn't really the goal. The goal, for better or worse, to eliminate the use of oil/coal/tar because the assumption is that those materials are considered 'new' inputs into the complex equation that is the energy balance of our world. The reason they glom onto solar and wind is because extracting energy from those systems balances that equation when it comes to human contribution. But that's also a massive over-simplification.

The reality is that the world, at and above population densities from ~100 years ago, relies on massive additional power inputs. Manging the knock-on effects of such a thing is also going to be a thing we need to deal with, and humanity has a decent track record when it comes to dealing with slow-moving disasters. Electrification is known among all the eggheads to be a knee-jerk stopgap that won't actually have much effect, but they're banking on the hope that it opens other technological advancements or helps 'ease' us off of 'fossil fuels' so that newer tech will be more readily adopted because they're all already electric. This isn't explained in public for the same reason medical decisions have never been fully fleshed out in public either (lets ignore the obvious exception, please). No sane person thinks that there's enough 'rare earth' minerals for everyone to own and consume and dispose of a significant mass of annually, indefinitely. Recyling those materials often requires a significant amount of the energy they were used to extract previously. As a result, the amount of energy consumption per-capita needs to decrease substantially, which is probably for the better, but no one likes watching politicians rove around in luxo-barges while we're told to drive our radio-flyers to work either.

As with all things, it's a balance, and people need to know a lot more about the system they choose to participate in if they're going to argue their decision is somehow 'better'. In the end, the vast majority are doing it as a result of poor analysis - environmental, financial, or otherwise - and then rationalizing it after the fact.
 
That is a large reason why I bought US panels and don't have battery back up. Then when it's all done they throw it on a fossil fuel ship for 3000 miles.

There's multiple materials in all panels which are not available in the US due to suppliers exiting the market as a result of operating costs soaring after implementing new regulations.
Being "Made in the USA" often means it's got some domestic glass installed in some US-sourced extrusion (made from foreign raw materials) for the frame.
Hopefully not, but that does tend to be the way 'Made in USA' applies these days, unfortunately.
 
I paid out of pocket 40 grand for mine, I dont thbink you helped me pay for it!!

Hopefully your energy cost savings are substantial. The same money in a reasonable retirement account would have provided significant earnings.
 
I am not advocating for anything. Show me where I did. What do you have to add to the subject of solar panels? Because there are dozens of threads on finances. There is not a person on here that does not understand that the panels are subsidized.

Tell me you don't take tax breaks that you don't agree with that are legal. I take advantage of whatever I can even If I would vote the subject down. If I send you your portion of my solar panels to you would you move on so people can focus on the advancements made in the industry?


Big difference between tax breaks and subsidies.

Ive done the research on solar and wind and all the Bolshevik fads out there. They are a joke.

The industrial revolution was based on oil and Protestant work ethic.

We can go back to the dark ages if you want. I won’t.
 
So my panels are on pace to pay for themselves in 5.5 years. If I did NOT take the tax credits my payoff time frame would be 14 years. With my panels guaranteed to produce over 85% of their max energy after 25 years. How exactly is the solar industry NOT able to stand on it's own as some have claimed? And that's with me buying American made stuff. Had I bought CCP panels the payoff for me and you folks would be much sooner subsidized or not.

That’s IF you don’t have any issues. These systems are pretty unreliable.
 
He said censored. I was being sarcastic at his twisted version of reality. I don't think I have a position. The conversation was set for discussion of solar energy not it's finances. Everyone here agrees the subsadies are an issue. The people that can't control that and can handle that as a fact would like to move on to other aspects of the solar issue.

Not one poster I have seen suggested the tax rebates are fair or good for America. Not one me included. I took the money end of story. I took that money and spent it well. I hope the department of education, homeland security, revenue ect did the same.

How do you take “finances” out of the discussion? Oh right, so you can make your point incorrectly.

I bet I get as many days of sunshine where I live as you do, and the math doesn’t work out.
 
Part of the problem is that some have boiled the question down to only carbon. But when it comes to 'harm reduction', carbon isn't the only factor. Even if the solar panel offset the same amount of carbon (it probably does in some places, and solar can also go where we've already going to rip out the environment), the dust and other pollutants released are non-zero, and in some cases are alarmingly large.

Part of the problem is that eggheads simply want everything to BE electric and try to kill all markets for fossil fuels, because harm reduction isn't really the goal. The goal, for better or worse, to eliminate the use of oil/coal/tar because the assumption is that those materials are considered 'new' inputs into the complex equation that is the energy balance of our world. The reason they glom onto solar and wind is because extracting energy from those systems balances that equation when it comes to human contribution. But that's also a massive over-simplification.

The reality is that the world, at and above population densities from ~100 years ago, relies on massive additional power inputs. Manging the knock-on effects of such a thing is also going to be a thing we need to deal with, and humanity has a decent track record when it comes to dealing with slow-moving disasters. Electrification is known among all the eggheads to be a knee-jerk stopgap that won't actually have much effect, but they're banking on the hope that it opens other technological advancements or helps 'ease' us off of 'fossil fuels' so that newer tech will be more readily adopted because they're all already electric. This isn't explained in public for the same reason medical decisions have never been fully fleshed out in public either (lets ignore the obvious exception, please). No sane person thinks that there's enough 'rare earth' minerals for everyone to own and consume and dispose of a significant mass of annually, indefinitely. Recyling those materials often requires a significant amount of the energy they were used to extract previously. As a result, the amount of energy consumption per-capita needs to decrease substantially, which is probably for the better, but no one likes watching politicians rove around in luxo-barges while we're told to drive our radio-flyers to work either.

As with all things, it's a balance, and people need to know a lot more about the system they choose to participate in if they're going to argue their decision is somehow 'better'. In the end, the vast majority are doing it as a result of poor analysis - environmental, financial, or otherwise - and then rationalizing it after the fact.


Phreakish is educating. People ought to be learning but some never will.
 
That’s IF you don’t have any issues. These systems are pretty unreliable.
What is unreliable about solar grids? What issues have you had with yours?

So two pages later what else was learned about solar other than some folks struggle to contain their emotions and that reduces the amount of exchanged information available for people who want to know.

With that subject dead. Why do people keep saying solar don't work? I understand solar has issues and there are several issues to be mentioned but everyone I know with solar has little to no issues with their solar grids.

The area I see that is the biggest problem is the salesmen pushing these systems in areas that won't give them a Max return on sunshine. I monitored the sun pattern for 2 years before calling a solar installer and I got quotes from a dozen installers. Some wanted to put the panels on my front porch. My porch faces the East and I have a 50 foot blue spruce 10 feet away. I would have had 8 panels getting 1 to 2 hours of sunshine a day. I fired him mid sentence.

I have the only tall house around as I'm restoring an old Vic so my roof gets a lot of sun. Most of my panels face south on a 45* roof. 35* is ideal in Iowa. the 45 gets me more sun in the winter. I have 3 panels facing east, never ever do that it was a waste. I have 3 that face West and they put out more power in the summer and less in the winter.
 
How do you take “finances” out of the discussion? Oh right, so you can make your point incorrectly.

I bet I get as many days of sunshine where I live as you do, and the math doesn’t work out.
Show me the math that proves my grid does not work out?
 
What is unreliable about solar grids? What issues have you had with yours?

So two pages later what else was learned about solar other than some folks struggle to contain their emotions and that reduces the amount of exchanged information available for people who want to know.

With that subject dead. Why do people keep saying solar don't work? I understand solar has issues and there are several issues to be mentioned but everyone I know with solar has little to no issues with their solar grids.

The area I see that is the biggest problem is the salesmen pushing these systems in areas that won't give them a Max return on sunshine. I monitored the sun pattern for 2 years before calling a solar installer and I got quotes from a dozen installers. Some wanted to put the panels on my front porch. My porch faces the East and I have a 50 foot blue spruce 10 feet away. I would have had 8 panels getting 1 to 2 hours of sunshine a day. I fired him mid sentence.

I have the only tall house around as I'm restoring an old Vic so my roof gets a lot of sun. Most of my panels face south on a 45* roof. 35* is ideal in Iowa. the 45 gets me more sun in the winter. I have 3 panels facing east, never ever do that it was a waste. I have 3 that face West and they put out more power in the summer and less in the winter.


Go back and read all the posts Phreakish made.


No need for me to be redundant.
 
Again, Phreakish summed it up.

Stop it. Show me the math that MY grid that you mentioned does not work out. People reading this need to know how wrong you are on this.

I would do it again even without the tax credits. Thats how well they worked out for me.

What issues have you experienced with your grid?
 
Stop it. Show me the math that MY grid that you mentioned does not work out. People reading this need to know how wrong you are on this.

I would do it again even without the tax credits. Thats how well they worked out for me.

What issues have you experienced with your grid?

I didn’t do it because it makes no financial sense, or economic sense, or environmental sense.

Dont mistake me for someone who doesn’t do his homework.
 
I didn’t do it because it makes no financial sense, or economic sense, or environmental sense.

Dont mistake me for someone who doesn’t do his homework.
So you have zero personal experience with solar yet you are sure that my grid does not more than pay for itself? That's just crazy. Maybe it isn't for you I have no idea of what your situation is and I don't pretend to have a crystal ball. But I do know that where it's viable it is definitely worth the investment from a financial stand point, tax credits or not.

As for the environmental issues again it depends on your area. If I'm getting my elect from an old coal plant then my panels look a lot more environmentally friendly than if I was getting it from a nuclear power station. The whole thing is a cost analysis and very seldom will 2 people from different areas have the same results. Even the amount of power consumed comes into play. The more you are a consumer of energy the more it pays as there is a reduced rate for selling it back to the company when they sold it to your neighbor full price. Grid maintenance costs taken into account, seems fair.

On top of that they recycle old panels in several ways. One company is making green houses from old panels. Yes there are parts that will need to be dealt with but you can recycle a large part this way while growing plants.
 
So you have zero personal experience with solar yet you are sure that my grid does not more than pay for itself? That's just crazy. Maybe it isn't for you I have no idea of what your situation is and I don't pretend to have a crystal ball. But I do know that where it's viable it is definitely worth the investment from a financial stand point, tax credits or not.

As for the environmental issues again it depends on your area. If I'm getting my elect from an old coal plant then my panels look a lot more environmentally friendly than if I was getting it from a nuclear power station. The whole thing is a cost analysis and very seldom will 2 people from different areas have the same results. Even the amount of power consumed comes into play. The more you are a consumer of energy the more it pays as there is a reduced rate for selling it back to the company when they sold it to your neighbor full price. Grid maintenance costs taken into account, seems fair.

On top of that they recycle old panels in several ways. One company is making green houses from old panels. Yes there are parts that will need to be dealt with but you can recycle a large part this way while growing plants.

OK, this then I’m done.

I said you have a subsidy that made your system more economically feasable. I couldn’t care less what YOU do, except I’m sick of subsidizing all this ****. Any and ALL subsidies should end tomorrow and that’s because today has passed.

I did the math. The **** doesn’t make sense for EVEN if I took a subsidy which I won’t. I don’t take handouts.

If the junk was so good, it wouldn’t need subsidies to make it happen would it?

As for recycling all all that **** you hype as enviromentally sound you miss the big picture.

You want to feel good about what you do and virtue signal how wonderful it is because SOME of it gets recycled.

Never mind the environmental DISASTER that happens to make all the junk that goes into solar. Or wind. Or any of the other crap put forth as feasible replacements for oil. You can parse it any way you want, but it’s a F ‘ing criminal disaster. But you go on and tell us how great it is.

Phreakish laid it out pretty clearly, and rather than read and consider what he posted, you want to keep going. You can posture all you want but it won’t change the facts.

Just an FYI, I started researching solar (and other) so called eco friendly sources of power in 1981. The technology has moved forward SOME, but it’s just not a viable option for the reasons many have posted.

Somewhere at home I have a paper I found and copied when I was in college. It was a PhD in several fields. And in that paper he absolutely proved how big a fallacy all these “alternatives” really are.

Between oil, hydroelectric and nuclear this country could have energy costs drop my a huge number.
 
OK, this then I’m done.

I said you have a subsidy that made your system more economically feasable. I couldn’t care less what YOU do, except I’m sick of subsidizing all this ****. Any and ALL subsidies should end tomorrow and that’s because today has passed.

I did the math. The **** doesn’t make sense for EVEN if I took a subsidy which I won’t. I don’t take handouts.

If the junk was so good, it wouldn’t need subsidies to make it happen would it?

As for recycling all all that **** you hype as enviromentally sound you miss the big picture.

You want to feel good about what you do and virtue signal how wonderful it is because SOME of it gets recycled.

Never mind the environmental DISASTER that happens to make all the junk that goes into solar. Or wind. Or any of the other crap put forth as feasible replacements for oil. You can parse it any way you want, but it’s a F ‘ing criminal disaster. But you go on and tell us how great it is.

Phreakish laid it out pretty clearly, and rather than read and consider what he posted, you want to keep going. You can posture all you want but it won’t change the facts.

Just an FYI, I started researching solar (and other) so called eco friendly sources of power in 1981. The technology has moved forward SOME, but it’s just not a viable option for the reasons many have posted.

Somewhere at home I have a paper I found and copied when I was in college. It was a PhD in several fields. And in that paper he absolutely proved how big a fallacy all these “alternatives” really are.

Between oil, hydroelectric and nuclear this country could have energy costs drop my a huge number.
This is your words. "I bet I get as many days of sunshine where I live as you do, and the math doesn’t work out." Show me the math that says my panels don't work out. You can't because it does work and it works for lots of other folks who have actually done the math and actually have personal experience with them, with or without the tax credits.

You make a few solid points, actually you're more like a cheerleader standing behind another guy who actually engaged the conversation and added quite a bit of good intel. Only one time did he feel the need to comment on the dead horse. Seems practical does it not?
 
I have plenty of experience building and maintaining these”green energy” money pits. Yes I have made money with them. We have had so far six “SOLYNDRA’s” that must be factored into the equation. All of the windmills originated from China. There may be some from USA but I never used one. When our deficit goes up” green” is one of the bigger players. You can use graphs/charts all you want but the bottom line-when you actually factor in the cost-shows why this is not feasible.
 
I see my meter ad I require about 1.9-2.1Kw/Hr according to my smart meter. My hot water and heater. dryer and stove are gas. F the electricity, MY GAS has gone UP 400% in 3 months! We used to pay $75 for the gas bill, our last bill was $400. Wife turned down heater to 63 and it turns on to 66 at 8PM to 930. and we dont have AC. I got a slight raise this year but Im way under my last years old rate paychecks with these natural gas prices.
 
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