Solid cam damage diagnosis help

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I've always avoided Hughes based on the less-than-stellar reviews of their customer service I've read. That policy will continue after reading through this train wreck. I'm just glad the damage was limited. You'll get it fixed and it'll run great!
 
I was NOT able to match Hughes HR cams with Howards lobe list
They could be custom
say like their "agressive" hr lobes
or hughes could have another grindern for hr and maybe others
with cnc grinders you can pretty much grind anything you can computr with no master
except Jones inverse radius roller grinds
ground with a 5" wheel
 
You know what can create a lot of heat?
Rubbing something with all the load concentrated to a very small area......... like you get when there is excessive lobe taper.
Boom! Hughes is on the "never buy from" list. The kings of customer service.
 
If a customer told me a cam I sold them had .007” lobe taper...... I’d have them send it to me so I could measure it myself.

Quite a few years ago I sold a solid roller to someone for a SBM.

The motor had gotten freshened up and they wanted to try something else for a cam.

The car ended up being slower.
For some reason they decided to check the lift...... and it was short.
Way too short, even considering the 59* bank angle and .750” offset int rockers(W2 heads).

They pulled the rockers off one side and checked the lift at the pushrod....... it was off by a good amount from the spec..... like .025-.030.

I had them send it to me....... because I thought that was “impossible”.
I put it in my lathe to measure the lift. It was dead on.

After a few phone calls and some more checking we determined the base circle of the new cam was a little shorter than the old cam........ and the lifter link bars were touching the top of the lifter bosses, which didn’t allow the lifters to drop all the way down on the base circle of the cam.
They didn’t want to have to grind on the block of their freshly rebuilt motor to use this cam...... so they put the old one back in.

I’d have also thought that a SFT cam with .007” taper coming from one of the well established cam grinders was also “impossible”...... so I’d have wanted to see it for myself.

Sometimes...... strange **** happens.

“Duly noted” seems a lot like “we don’t care”.
 
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“Duly noted” seems a lot like “we don’t care”.
A very strange business model. Mocking your customer. Who happens to be a member of the biggest Mopar website around. Who has a thread asking for tech help on one of your non inspected engine parts. Which BTW, costs as much or more than one of your competitors.
 
If a customer told me a cam I sold them had .007” lobe taper...... I’d have them send it to me so I could measure it myself.

Quite a few years ago I sold a solid roller to someone for a SBM.

The motor had gotten freshened up and they wanted to try something else for a cam.

The car ended up being slower.
For some reason they decided to check the lift...... and it was short.
Way too short, even considering the 59* bank angle and .750” offset int rockers(W2 heads).

They pulled the rockers off one side and checked the lift at the pushrod....... it was off by a good amount from the spec..... like .025-.030.

I had them send it to me....... because I thought that was “impossible”.
I put it in my lathe to measure the lift. It was dead on.

After a few phone calls and some more checking we determined the base circle of the new cam was a little shorter than the old cam........ and the lifter link bars were touching the top of the lifter bosses, which didn’t allow the lifters to drop all the way down on the base circle of the cam.
They didn’t want to have to grind on the block of their freshly rebuilt motor to use this cam...... so they put the old one back in.

I’d have also thought that a SFT cam coming from one of the well established cam grinders was also “impossible”...... so I’d have wanted to see it for myself.

Sometimes...... strange **** happens.

“Duly noted” seems a lot like “we don’t care”.


Not defending Hughes (because this entire issue is indefensible) but the fact remains that you have two different entities involved here.

You have Hughes, who have no way to grind a cam and Howard’s, who are the subcontractor in the deal.

That’s an equation that gets you right into a pissing match when something goes backwards. Hughes didn’t grind it, so they don’t care. Howard’s didn’t sell it directly, so they don’t care. In total, neither one gives a single ****.

If Dave had ANY balls, he’d have the OP send the cam to him and he would have verified that it was incorrectly ground, and the HE would deal with HIS subcontractor. And he would make the OP whole, which never happens but at least he could have refunded his money for the junk cam and maybe some money for gaskets and such.

But none of that will never happen. There are things I’d buy from Hughes, but it would damn sure never be a cam.

And Dave gets away with this crap because people buy his marketing hype.

Until people wake up, he will continue to profit by not supporting his products when they have an issue.

I feel horrible for the OP and I hope some people who read this thread learn from the OP’s experience.

BTW...not too impressed with Howard’s. They have atleast one employee who either doesn’t give a crap or he shouldn’t be grinding cams. Or both.
 
If Dave had ANY balls, he’d have the OP send the cam to him and he would have verified that it was incorrectly ground, and the HE would deal with HIS subcontractor. And he would make the OP whole, which never happens but at least he could have refunded his money for the junk cam and maybe some money for gaskets and such.
Yes 1000%. I have never bought from Hughes, but checked out their cams for a 383 build. That said, I have read more than 1 unhappy review of their service on the car forums I visit.
 
BTW...not too impressed with Howard’s. They have atleast one employee who either doesn’t give a crap or he shouldn’t be grinding cams. Or both.

I wouldn’t totally condemn Howard’s until I had “the conversation” with them.
If they said, “we grind the cams with the taper like that because that’s what Hughes wants”....... I’d give them a pass on it.

If I got the “that’s impossible” speech....... and they didn’t ask to see it...... well, that would be the end of any recommendations for them from me.

As it stands right now, any recommendation I made for them would have to have the caveat added about “the guy that had the SFT ground by them with the .007” taper”.
 
I just got off the phone with Chris at Engle. Great guy and very helpful. He even offered to fix the Hughes cam. I decided to just order the KV2 from him. Hughes was a 242/246 duration and 564/576 with a 108 LSA,
the KV2 is a 245/245 duration and 560/560 with a 107 LSA. I decided not to go KV3 or bigger being that I have a T56/4.10 combo that tends to cruise in the 2200 rpm range so I wanted to avoid the low speed bucking/surging. As for Hughes, Tim responded via email and assured me it was my fault and said the speckles of metal on the journals were likely from my bearings coming apart. I reminded him of the brilliant machining that was done and stated that the metal speckles were more likely all the metal coming off the cam lobes but yes they had already circulated through my engine and was causing damage to my bearings. I guess it was the expected reply. Live and learn. What do you guys think of my cam choice with Engle?, did I give up performance?? Chris did say he felt it would be up on power and more than anything longevity. Howards asked for 360 lbs pressure open where as Engle calls for 320. Chris said there was no need for so much pressure and try to adjust my springs to be closer to 320 if possible.
It's nice when people listen.
You're gonna be very happy with it.
Chris is a good guy to deal with, I've met the guy, walked the building, watched the cams grinding away on the machines. He will even do a re grind for 60 bucks if you ever need a touch up. People that care about your business and the outcome of your project are the ones you need to work with.

Don't buy from Hughes, Howard's, clay Smith, or comp. Nothing but problems. Theres a few more too... save for another time.
Sad they didnt even offer you another regrind or partial credit even to a new cam to at least keep your business. That say lil money their cams are worth...we already know they're asswipes based on the advertising way back in the 90's. Reinventing the wheel usually ends up the same in the end.
 
I wouldn’t totally condemn Howard’s until I had “the conversation” with them.
If they said, “we grind the cams with the taper like that because that’s what Hughes wants”....... I’d give them a pass on it.

If I got the “that’s impossible” speech....... and they didn’t ask to see it...... well, that would be the end of any recommendations for them from me.


It’s not just the 7 thou taper. It’s that it was ground incorrectly for a Chrysler. I dam sure know Hughes didn’t spec that.

And yes, I’d call Howard’s and talk to them. I know, for a fact (without naming names) that if you have an issue with a Hughes cam and call Howard’s they will say Hughes sends us pallets of cores and we grind them like Hughes tells us.

I’m betting they’ll pass the buck because Hughes low balled Howard’s, and to get them to grind his stuff with enough meat on the bone so he can make a profit he told Howard’s he’d deal with all the issues that crop up.

I’d bet everything I have, and a lot of stuff I don’t have that this can’t be a one off cam. Howard’s can’t make money grinding single cams. They have to do it production.

They have some joker standing there banging out the same cam for hours on end. That means there’s probably more than one of these out there. And I’m betting Hughes and Howard’s know it.

Or, this was the first cam off the grinder and the guy setting it up missed on the first cam and rather than throwing it in the scrap, or grinding a different lobe on it just sent it out and didn’t give a crap.

Just my guesses as to how this happens. I’ve worked in production (and HATED it) and I caught a guy resizing connecting rod not correcting the bore gauge on the machine.

By the time I caught it, he admitted no one showed him how to do it, so I said we are in the ****, because we are about to get hit with a TON of warranty claims.

In less that 30 days it started, and it was a massive hit to the company.

And of course, I was management at the time, and I had to fire the guy, and then deal with all the claims. The company did its level best to enforce the warranty to the letter. I don’t know how many people got screwed on the deal, but it was a bunch.

It wasn’t long after that they fired me for “insubordination” because I refused to find any loophole I could go screw the customer for something that didn’t cause the failure.

Two years later the company was sold and a year after that it went broke. Just like it should have.
 
It’s not just the 7 thou taper. It’s that it was ground incorrectly for a Chrysler. I dam sure know Hughes didn’t spec that.

And yes, I’d call Howard’s and talk to them. I know, for a fact (without naming names) that if you have an issue with a Hughes cam and call Howard’s they will say Hughes sends us pallets of cores and we grind them like Hughes tells us.

I don’t know...... I can see a conversation going something like,
“Is there anything you guys can do to lower the unit cost of the grinding down a few $$ per piece?”

“Well....... we could not put the staggered taper on the SB FT cams by not having to dress the wheel for the second 8 lobes”

“That sounds good...... let’s do it”

Like I said...... it would be an interesting conversation to hear what Howard’s had to say.
 
I don’t know...... I can see a conversation going something like,
“Is there anything you guys can do to lower the unit cost of the grinding down a few $$ per piece?”

“Well....... we could not put the staggered taper on the SB FT cams by not having to dress the wheel for the second 8 lobes”

“That sounds good...... let’s do it”

Like I said...... it would be an interesting conversation to hear what Howard’s had to say.


And I can believe that for sure. Sure can.
 
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Dave Hughes wears a dress and kneels at gloryholes.
Dave Hughes favorite cologne
is... "le wet fart" and his weekend name is Cindy.

How are they still business...oh because not enough is being said about their screwing people
 
Here’s one of those “that’s impossible” cam stories.

One of my friends/customers was pretty big into Chevy 409’s.

He’d been running one that had been hopped up pretty good, and one day it let go.
He had a decent stash of hard parts, so he built another one.
The one that blew up had a Crane cam in it.
He liked the cam, so he ordered another one for the new build.

Gets the motor going...... doesn’t seem to quite “have it” like the previous motor.
And...... the exhaust note on one bank seems “different”.
He does all the tuning under the sun..... no change.
This guy is a real hands on type of guy, who has a good sense for how **** works.
So, he degrees all 16 cam lobes.
The ex lobes on one bank are all advanced 25*.
Double checks, triple checks...... same every time.

Calls Crane..... gets the “its impossible” speech...... but they want him to send it back for checking.

They never admitted anything, but they did send him another cam....... and that one checked out fine.
And the exhaust sounded normal...... and then the motor “had it” again.
 
Howards grinds those cams on CNC machines. There has to be a program loaded into that machine to grind Hughes cams. Maybe one setting was changed but why? Doesn't make any sense.

I have seen and heard about dozens of cams from virtually every grinder having an occasional issue with a mis-ground cam. And most grinders will take the cam back and make good with a replacement. I bought a Comp SBC cam for a C-30 tow vehicle I had years ago. It was ground 8 degrees retarded. No adjustable sprokets back then. It was a pooch. Sent it back and they sent a good one. **** happens.

I used to get free Engle cams from my sponsor. 351-C engines. No power off the corners but a sudden burst on top end. Broke my last freebie and called Chet Herbert. He laughed and told me I was running a Chevy grind that dosen't work on a Ford. Sent me a $39.00 regrind that kicked ***. The Comp cam was in their catalog!

I have run one Hughes cam... a 228 duration Magnum deal. Worked great. Biggest I could run with FI. OK service... no issues.

I have two new SBM cams on the shelf... a Mike Jones SFT and a Howards SFT. My lathe is sitting on my front lawn with a for sale sign on it... yard sale special. But I'll try to do some measuring tonite to see if ther is any issues between those two cams. Both are ground on a CWC core btw... I wonder who Hughes buys his SFT cores from. If it's CWC it will be cast into the core.
 
Okay....I forgot I have three cams in stock if yopu count the Purple Shaft that came out of my blown engine.

So... I measured all three cams...Mopar, Jones and Howards. All three had exactly .002 taper on the lobes. Prtetty good.

I also noticed that the MP cam had a different core than the Jones and Howards which were CWC.
 
One of my local customers put a 455 Pontiac together a couple years ago.

Start up/break in went well.
Gets everything dialed in, all seems good.
He’s driving the car on his way to delivering it to the owner...... hears something he didn’t like at a stop light.
Oil pressure looks a tad low.
Shuts it off..... starts it up again..... hears the noise again.

Has one of his guys come get him with the trailer.
Pulls oil filter..... there’s metal in it.

Motor comes out and apart.
Rod bearing is failing.

Happens to give the cam a close look over......one of the lobes appears to be starting to go.

Brings it over to me for a look.
Yup, that lobe is going, and several others don’t look great.
And the wear pattern is right down the middle of the lobes.
I checked the taper in the lathe.
The most taper any of the lobes had was about .0005(1/2 a thou).
The one with the failed lobe basically had none.

Here is the argument against the white box special cams.
They are almost always ground on big production machines, using gang masters......... and those machines have 16 grinding wheels, and grind all the lobes simultaneously.
So, this means there are 16 different wheels, that get dressed individually, that can have potentially 16 varying degrees of taper.
On a traditional machine, or a cnc machine...... the one grinding wheel does all the lobes...... so the lobe taper should be consistent for all the lobes(could be consistently good..... or as in the case of the OP...... consistently bad).
 
Here’s one of those “that’s impossible” cam stories.

One of my friends/customers was pretty big into Chevy 409’s.

He’d been running one that had been hopped up pretty good, and one day it let go.
He had a decent stash of hard parts, so he built another one.
The one that blew up had a Crane cam in it.
He liked the cam, so he ordered another one for the new build.

Gets the motor going...... doesn’t seem to quite “have it” like the previous motor.
And...... the exhaust note on one bank seems “different”.
He does all the tuning under the sun..... no change.
This guy is a real hands on type of guy, who has a good sense for how **** works.
So, he degrees all 16 cam lobes.
The ex lobes on one bank are all advanced 25*.
Double checks, triple checks...... same every time.

Calls Crane..... gets the “its impossible” speech...... but they want him to send it back for checking.

They never admitted anything, but they did send him another cam....... and that one checked out fine.
And the exhaust sounded normal...... and then the motor “had it” again.

It's very childish and egocentric of them to not admit the screw up. Pretending it never happened, "oh well heres another cam, enjoy"......Crickets...
 
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Okay....I forgot I have three cams in stock if yopu count the Purple Shaft that came out of my blown engine.

So... I measured all three cams...Mopar, Jones and Howards. All three had exactly .002 taper on the lobes. Prtetty good.

I also noticed that the MP cam had a different core than the Jones and Howards which were CWC.
Was said crane ground their cams for a bit, but I'm not a historian..
 
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