Stainless, Bushed PRW Rocker Arms

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Mopar69gts said:
Didn't you say they need banana grooves?

BTW I drove my car for about 2 years with X Heads and factory rockers with no issues.
Before putting Trick Flows on with PRW Rockers.
Some also suggest the oil hole is a bit too small in the Tf's
But really shouldn't matter because I doubled the oiling when I added pushrod oiling.
It was getting plenty of oil.
I think banana grooves would certainly help if not eliminate the problem altogether.
I'm Sorry if I have you mixed up with someone else.
Also I drove my car several thousand miles with the Trickflows and 273 Rockers with Factory Banana grooved Shafts with zero wear, with just through the head oiling.
So there's that too.
My personal Opinion is what you and a lot of knowledgeable people have said all along,
They need Banana grooves and possibly better bushings and roller tips.
Lastly Mike @ b3 said he did not find any bluing or any discoloration to my PRW Rockers or Shafts that would indicate heat like from a lack of oil.
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Yes, I said you need banana grooves.

I get you drove it for a couple of years without issue. And all that time it wasn’t getting enough oil between the rocker and the shaft so it was slowly eating the bushings.

IMO, adding pushrod oiling was a waste of time. There is plenty of oil up there. The issue is the oil can’t get between the shaft and the rocker, especially with a hydraulic lifter. There is always an upward load on the rocker. That’s why the grooves are a must. Why PRW doesn’t get their head out of their asses on this deal is a bit baffling.

I’m betting 99.999% of the rockers they build have needle bearings on the shaft so they don’t take near the oil that a bushing does.

IMO, the transfer of bronze to the shaft doesn’t take enough heat to turn the shaft blue.

I have run some pretty high spring loads on unbushed aluminum rockers and and bushed ductile iron and steel rockers and they take a bunch of oil to keep them off the shafts.

I had an issue with some Crane gold rockers probably around 1989 or so. There wasn’t enough oil at the shafts and there was aluminum on the shafts from the rockers and nothing was blue because the aluminum melts before the blue happens.

Same with bronze bushings.

I would assume the shafts were junk after the first go around. The only way to know for sure is to get the shafts up between centers and indicate it in and run a dial indicator over it.
 
How about grooving the cam bearing for a constant oil supply as well?
 
Rat Bastid said:
You can but that puts a bunch of oil up there. That’s usually only required on solid roller cams.

I certainly would groove the cam before I went to pushrod oiling.
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Yeah, but at least you can drill and tap the head for a restrictor and control it. Better to have too much oil and have to control it.
 
Are you using stock head bolts with the TF heads, or did you use studs? If you used studs, oil may not be getting up thru the passage under the longest head bolt on each side like it will if you use factory style head bolts. The longest head bolt on each side is smaller diameter to let the oil coming from the cam passage up to the head get to the rocker shaft. Head studs are full size and will cut off or severely restrict that oil flow. Also, check the shim for the correction kit to see if oil will get past it and up into the rocker shaft like it's supposed to. Just throwing another idea out there that will be easy to check. Hope you get it figured out soon.
:thumbsup:
 
What about a MasterLube Prelubrication System, I know racers use them. Is it something that would help with oiling the rockers?
 
JDMopar said:
Are you using stock head bolts with the TF heads, or did you use studs? If you used studs, oil may not be getting up thru the passage under the longest head bolt on each side like it will if you use factory style head bolts. The longest head bolt on each side is smaller diameter to let the oil coming from the cam passage up to the head get to the rocker shaft. Head studs are full size and will cut off or severely restrict that oil flow. Also, check the shim for the correction kit to see if oil will get past it and up into the rocker shaft like it's supposed to. Just throwing another idea out there that will be easy to check. Hope you get it figured out soon.
:thumbsup:
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Interesting,
I used studs I got from Trick Flow.
Thanks for that.
I did however run factory 273 Rockers
With Banana grooves on them for several thousand miles with no wear.
They are back on currently and seem to be working fine.
One member suggested taking them off
One side at a time and remove all spark plugs, cover the oil hole with a cup then crank the Engine to watch how much oil is getting there.
I think that would help answer that question.
Actually If the 273 Rockers keep living I might just leave them on.
I don't think the Geometry is as good.
As long as it doesn't cause any excessive guide wear or valve tip wear...
Thanks
 
Car Nut said:
What about a MasterLube Prelubrication System, I know racers use them. Is it something that would help with oiling the rockers?
Click to expand...
Sure that will help prior to starting for prelube, but once running, all that's over with.
 
gzig5 said:
May not have anything to do with it but when I got my PRW 1.6 rockers I stripped them down and ran them through the ultrasonic tank. Then I still had to clear every oil port hole with a wire. I’d say 30% of them were packed with chips or crud. I cleaned the shafts out as well as I could without removing the plugs but I may go back and do that again because I haven’t installed them yet. If yours weren’t cleaned out before they were put in you could have restricted oil flow on some. Either way with any of these parts it’s important to pull them down and clean them out because manufacturers are taking every shortcut that they can to save a buck.
I also don’t like the color of those bushings and the deposit on the shaft it almost looks like there’s too much copper or wasn’t blended well so it could be an issue with the material
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I've had funk in stock replacement shafts, oil holes had metal shavings hanging out... ect
 
The bolt holes in the heads for oil flow through #2 & 4 pedestals are enlarged for oil flow around the bolt or stud, whatever is being used.
The problem is poor quality bronze &/or incorrectly alloyed bronze, not lubrication. Bronze is a porous metal that is designed to run on minimal lubrication because it stores oil in it's pores. Two examples jump out where there is no continuous oil supply & the bronze survives for 000s of miles. Upper bush in the dist shaft & bronze valve guides; especially exh valve guides with positive valve seals. Subject to tremendous heat, plus any oil that manages to get past the seal gets pushed back up the guide by positive pressure of the outgoing gas.
 
Bewy said:
The bolt holes in the heads for oil flow through #2 & 4 pedestals are enlarged for oil flow around the bolt or stud, whatever is being used.
The problem is poor quality bronze &/or incorrectly alloyed bronze, not lubrication. Bronze is a porous metal that is designed to run on minimal lubrication because it stores oil in it's pores. Two examples jump out where there is no continuous oil supply & the bronze survives for 000s of miles. Upper bush in the dist shaft & bronze valve guides; especially exh valve guides with positive valve seals. Subject to tremendous heat, plus any oil that manages to get past the seal gets pushed back up the guide by positive pressure of the outgoing gas.
Click to expand...


I don’t think they are using oil impregnate bronze bushings in those rockers.

If you get bushing stock it isn’t porous. I make all my own pilot bushings and be never bought oilite bushing stock for them.
 
My engineering handbook has about 18 different bronze alloys & I doubt if that is the complete list...
 
Bewy said:
Bronze is a porous metal that is designed to run on minimal lubrication because it stores oil in it's pores.
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This is not correct. Bronze alloys are homogeneous in cross section when drawn, just like steel. Oilite is a commercial brand of a type of bronze that is recast with a special process that creates pockets throughout the material that hold oil. It looks a bit like a bronze sponge if examined under magnification. There are many alloys of bronze and some are very hard and tough, approaching mild steel. Oilite is weak in comparison and usually used in applications where the oil supply is limited and not continuous, such as on an electrical motor or all the shafts on my Sioux valve grinder. Because of it's porous and not a solid material, Oilite cannot carry the loads that regular bronze can and would never be used for a rocker bushing or highly stressed component like a main bearing or punch press slide.
 
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Mopar69gts said:
Interesting,
I used studs I got from Trick Flow.
Thanks for that.
I did however run factory 273 Rockers
With Banana grooves on them for several thousand miles with no wear.
They are back on currently and seem to be working fine.
One member suggested taking them off
One side at a time and remove all spark plugs, cover the oil hole with a cup then crank the Engine to watch how much oil is getting there.
I think that would help answer that question.
Actually If the 273 Rockers keep living I might just leave them on.
I don't think the Geometry is as good.
As long as it doesn't cause any excessive guide wear or valve tip wear...
Thanks
Click to expand...

what years did uou buy these rocker arms and get the replacement set?
 
I'll be using X-heads so hopefully I won't have any issues. Though about having the oil holes in the shafts enlarged maybe.
 
cookietruck said:
what years did uou buy these rocker arms and get the replacement set?
Click to expand...
The first set lasted from 6-1-19 to 11-1-20
Mike @ b3 was nice enough to warranty them for me since they were 5 months beyond the 1 year warranty.
The second set lasted from 1-1-21 to 8-1-22
So about a year an a half both times...
 
Mopar69gts said:
The first set lasted from 6-1-19 to 11-1-20
Mike @ b3 was nice enough to warranty them for me since they were 5 months beyond the 1 year warranty.
The second set lasted from 1-1-21 to 8-1-22
So about a year an a half both times...
Click to expand...
Doesn't sound like a defective issue.
 
This is why if you remember, @Oldmanmopar and his son came up with milling a flat on the head stud that goes into that particular hole where the oil feed is. They wanted to make SURE there was enough oil flow.....but got vilified for their idea. I thought it was a good one. The small amount they milled off would in no way have an effect on the stud's strength, yet all the forum experts showed up in full force to tell them how stupid their idea was. Yet, I JUST BET they don't have oiling problems to the rockers. Not saying that's your problem, but it's darn well worth double checking.
 
RustyRatRod said:
This is why if you remember, @Oldmanmopar and his son came up with milling a flat on the head stud that goes into that particular hole where the oil feed is. They wanted to make SURE there was enough oil flow.....but got vilified for their idea. I thought it was a good one. The small amount they milled off would in no way have an effect on the stud's strength, yet all the forum experts showed up in full force to tell them how stupid their idea was. Yet, I JUST BET they don't have oiling problems to the rockers. Not saying that's your problem, but it's darn well worth double checking.
Click to expand...
Well said. If I was having issues (like the op) I would be tempted to run a gun drill down the passages. Who knows, there could be a restriction or blockage causing the issue. Of course you would need to take the engine apart to do it but what ever. It isn't going to fix itself. Throwing new parts at it isn't fixing it either.
 
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