Stock '69 318, t-quad vs q-jet vs holley vs edelbrock?

[dirty white boy]

Summit sells a version of a Holley 4010 that is similar to the Auolite carb. I have one, works very well. Other than that, an Edelbrock or a Holley will be fine. The spreadbore carbs are better IMO. But! Finding parts for them can be a bummer. The jets and rods for a TQ are very hard to find. IDK about the Rochester.

I have done the Summit Racing headers and exhaust kit several times before and it is an excellent and inexpensive set up. As mentioned earlier, the headers are the typical 1-5/8 tube design that has 3 tubes on the drivers side to under the steering linkage. It’s a huge PIA to get it done, but that should be nothing new.

In order to save the headers from being flattened from the road and speed bumps, a 1/4 twist of the torsion bars height adjustment bolt will raise the cars front up a little bit. Also install new shocks. Worn shocks will allow to much travel wrecking the headers.

On the exhaust, minor trimming will probably be needed. This is a simple thing to do with a metal blade on a chop saw. A hand saw can be used. The cuts just aren’t the straightest. Summit brand mufflers are normally supplied and have been dyno proven to allow 400 hp, no problem.

Below you can view a header/exhaust kit -
This one is actually a Hooker header and a Jegs exhaust kit which is the same as Summit exhaust kit. The Summit header is actually better than the high dollar Hooker.

rumblefish's Duster project

i ran one of the holley versions of that autolite, was a duel line 750 mechanical secondary's with that weird one piece top, was new, came on a x block .040 340 ported x heads .520 purple hft cam, LD340 intake 18 spline 833 3:91 8 3/4 in a 72 duster that was drag raced for 18 years when i got it, ran like raped ape! ol car did great for 9 years, just adjust idle air a few times never needed to open it up for anything, 9 years,.id park it for 6 to 9 months,..go bleed front brakes dump a oz of gas down the carb fire it off, drive it 6 months to 2 years and park it again, back and forth, did every thing your not sposed to do and car always ran great till i got stupid and traded it for 55 chevy project,..my biggest regret EVER bar none!

 

[Brooks James]

TQ's usually do not need any tuning, especially with what you want to do. Maybe secondary jets. Then it is just cleaning everything up and adjusting the secondary air valve so it won't bog. Make sure you get a TQ that is not frozen or has any stuck parts, like idle mixture adjusting screws. The earlier the better or from trucks or vans.

Also carefully check play in the primary throttle shaft, might need new bushings

 

[rumblefish360]

i ran one of the holley versions of that autolite, was a duel line 750 mechanical secondary's with that weird one piece top, was new, came on a x block .040 340 ported x heads .520 purple hft cam, LD340 intake 18 spline 833 3:91 8 3/4 in a 72 duster that was drag raced for 18 years when i got it, ran like raped ape! ol car did great for 9 years, just adjust idle air a few times never needed to open it up for anything, 9 years,.id park it for 6 to 9 months,..go bleed front brakes dump a oz of gas down the carb fire it off, drive it 6 months to 2 years and park it again, back and forth, did every thing your not sposed to do and car always ran great till i got stupid and traded it for 55 chevy project,..my biggest regret EVER bar none!

Nice! I had the 600 square bore version, vs, electric choke. It was used on a low compression 360. Worked just fine. Just a daily driver deal, so, finding out just what the 4010 model Holley was capable of was never fully seen. It performed well no doubt, but it wasn’t taxed or had an opportunity to show how good it could be since the engine was stock.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Hi all,
Just got a '69 dart with a 318. New to this engine and mopars in general. It is a completely unmolested engine, stock two barrel of course. After I get some headers and dual exhaust on it, I plan on doing a 4 barrel swap. In terms of intake, I could go for something spread bore to run a t-quad or q-jet, but is this the right way to go? I could also try to find a square bore intake and run an edelbrock avs2 or a holley vac secondary...

The t-quad seems really appealing given the stories of great mileage and unparalleled airflow for the price but is it more of a hassle?

Thanks guys

IMO
the changes that you are contemplating, at zero mph, will not help performance at all. In fact, when you install a spreadbore carb, you are likely to lose performance until the secondaries open.
The torque peak of your stock 318engine should occur at or near 3000rpm, perhaps a little sooner with the 2bbl.
Which will then occur, if your car has the typical 2.76 gears, at close to 28/30 mph. Horsepower does not increase all at once, but starts at 1hp, then 2 then 3 and so on, increasing with rpm. If your changes make 15/20 hp, this won't happen until about 4400 rpm. When you install the 4bbl, if the tires do not spin, this will be at or near 40 mph.
In other words, you can expect the power to BEGIN at 28/30 and peak at 40, in first gear, with a stock convertor, and 2.76 gearing.
I bet that is NOT what you're expecting.
I bet, you want performance, right from the take off.
If that is true, then yur gonna need a higher than stock stall, and performance rear gears, and I recommend a double-pumper carb.

If it was mine;
Since I know this is what I would want from my combo, and
since I know that your combo will need the higher stall and gears anyway,
I would just do that first, and save myself the disappointment.
Both of these work together, starting at zero mph, and
because the tires will now spin, the double pumper will make it easier to control the power, without surprises. Expect to have to install the biggest tires that fit and you will need a Limited Slip.

If you do not go this route,
that's fine, but at least do this;
With the current combo, and with fresh oil in her, time your first gear performance from zero mph to whatever speed gets you ~4400rpm. Run the test 3 times and record the best time. This will be your minimum target with any and all changes. If the tires spin, the test is invalid, start again with less throttle.
Then, after whatever change you make, run the test again and record the results.

In conclusion therefore,
I recommend,
both a higher stall, AND gears in the range of 3.91s plus/minus one gear size, plus the Limited Slip and big-boy tires.
I like a good rowdy Dirt-Jerker2800 TC.
When you do the gears, you will need a new speed-o gear.
When you do the hi-stall, you might as well install a shift kit; and because I can, I would also rebuild the trans.
When you install the 4bbl, you will want to upgrade the trans anyway, and this will want a new governor arrangement; and she will want a free-flowing dual exhaust.
If you contemplate a cam-swap, to anything with over 40degrees of overlap, she will want headers. I would not stay with the 318 logs , after the 4bl goes on.
Having done these kinds of swaps since the 70's,
these are my opinions.
You will not hurt my feelings, if you start with the 4bbl. In fact, if you post your time-trials, you can prove me wrong! ; and I'm Ok with that too; all I ask is that you be accurate and honest.

 

[rumblefish360]

IMO
the changes that you are contemplating, at zero mph, will not help performance at all. In fact, when you install a spreadbore carb, you are likely to lose performance until the secondaries open.

There is a certain amount of truth to this and it starts with the primary size of the spreadbore carb vs the carb it replaces.
Chrysler small block engines that came with the spreadbore carb were initially small primary unit which were replaced by the larger primary units. Do you fart checking and you’ll see the change over on 340/360 engines. The 318 will benefit from the larger primary carb when used in a performance application.

The torque peak of your stock 318engine should occur at or near 3000rpm, perhaps a little sooner with the 2bbl.
Which will then occur, if your car has the typical 2.76 gears, at close to 28/30 mph. Horsepower does not increase all at once, but starts at 1hp, then 2 then 3 and so on, increasing with rpm. If your changes make 15/20 hp, this won't happen until about 4400 rpm. When you install the 4bbl, if the tires do not spin, this will be at or near 40 mph.

Because the engine is making more power the drive train tends to hold onto the gear before shifting. This is an adjustment on the transmission linkage. EZ fix

In other words, you can expect the power to BEGIN at 28/30 and peak at 40, in first gear, with a stock convertor, and 2.76 gearing.

Define power. What or which power? I’m about to argue this a lot.
The statement is fundamentally flawed. But has truth elements behind it that you don’t mention.

I bet that is NOT what you're expecting.
I bet, you want performance, right from the take off.
If that is true, then yur gonna need a higher than stock stall, and performance rear gears, and I recommend a double-pumper carb

Excellent ideas minus the double pumper IMO, but if you (the reader) can make it work, have at it!

If it was mine;
Since I know this is what I would want from my combo, and
since I know that your combo will need the higher stall and gears anyway,
I would just do that first, and save myself the disappointment.
Both of these work together, starting at zero mph, and
because the tires will now spin,

Stock tires tend to give up the traction ghost early. LOL

the double pumper will make it easier to control the power, without surprises. Expect to have to install the biggest tires that fit and you will need a Limited Slip.

Always my favorite look. However, the VS carb can be tuned to not deliver the power so early. Then again, self control of the gas pedal is a better and easier way to limit tire spin.
Get to know your car!

If you do not go this route,
that's fine, but at least do this;
With the current combo, and with fresh oil in her, time your first gear performance from zero mph to whatever speed gets you ~4400rpm. Run the test 3 times and record the best time. This will be your minimum target with any and all changes.
Then, after whatever change you make, run the test again and record the results.

Thumbs up!

In conclusion therefore,
I recommend,
both a higher stall, AND gears in the range of 3.91s plus/minus one gear size, plus the Limited Slip and big-boy tires.
I like a good rowdy Dirt-Jerker2800 TC.
When you do the gears, you will need a new speed-o gear.
When you do the hi-stall, you might as well install a shift kit; and because I can, I would also rebuild the trans.
When you install the 4bbl, you will want to upgrade the trans anyway, and this will want a new governor arrangement; and she will want a free-flowing dual exhaust.
If you contemplate a cam-swap, to anything with over 40degrees of overlap, she will want headers. I would not stay with the 318 logs , after the 4bl goes on.
Having done these kinds of swaps since the 70's,
these are my opinions.
You will not hurt my feelings, if you start with the 4bbl. In fact, if you post your time-trials, you can prove me wrong! ; and I'm Ok with that too; all I ask is that you be accurate and honest.

 

[lemondana]

Make sure you don't get a TQ from Uncle Tony's Garage. He stores his at the bottom of Lake Erie, corroded and big holes blown in the bowl. The worst damn TQ that I have looks 20 times better than the one he was showing on the one video!

 

[junkyardhero]

I recommend,
both a higher stall, AND gears in the range of 3.91s plus/minus one gear size, plus the Limited Slip and big-boy tires.
I like a good rowdy Dirt-Jerker2800 TC.
When you do the gears, you will need a new speed-o gear.
When you do the hi-stall, you might as well install a shift kit; and because I can, I would also rebuild the trans.
When you install the 4bbl, you will want to upgrade the trans anyway, and this will want a new governor arrangement; and she will want a free-flowing dual exhaust.

(edited for brevity)

while this is all spot on, i think it misses the mark.

if you have a smooth grand to spend and a 318 2bbl that money is better spent on a 4bbl set up, EI and a cam.

is it going to be optimal with a clapped out slush box and some long legs out back, no.

but a torque converter, shift kit and gears is gonna set you back at least a grand and you'll still have a wheeze box 318 2bbl

are those worthwhile and important upgrades, yes. but this is kind of a forest for the trees here. immediate gratification is a 4bbl

however, if you don't have discs up front do that first.

 

[rumblefish360]

while this is all spot on, i think it misses the mark.

50/50

if you have a smooth grand to spend and a 318 2bbl that money is better spent on a 4bbl set up, EI and a cam.

is it going to be optimal with a clapped out slush box and some long legs out back, no.

but a torque converter, shift kit and gears is gonna set you back at least a grand and you'll still have a wheeze box 318 2bbl

are those worthwhile and important upgrades, yes. but this is kind of a forest for the trees here. immediate gratification is a 4bbl

however, if you don't have discs up front do that first.

Upgrading part by part is always a let down until the goal is met and even the , the slow advancements made are easy to get used to and feel like nothing when your done.

The best deal in feeling the improvement is doing it all at once.

 

[rumblefish360]

@remytherat Just stick to the exhaust first. Get it done.
Then when possible, a cam, intake and carb next. An ignition upgrade anytime is a good thing.

If you keep the cam’s duration under 218@050, it will not require a converter change and the cam is small enough that a 2.76 gear won’t kill the package as it is.

The long and short of this right now is,
“Where do you want to end up when it’s all said and done?”

 

[junkyardhero]

50/50

Upgrading part by part is always a let down until the goal is met and even the , the slow advancements made are easy to get used to and feel like nothing when your done.

The best deal in feeling the improvement is doing it all at once.

yeah i agree, but it's a fine line between wanton desire and budget.

sometimes the incremental work is a little more friendly to the pocket book and gratifying in that you can see what each change does. doing everything all at once can be a risky path to walk in that you drop a BUNCH of dough, the car's all in pieces and you can become mired in project creep or stalled out on something with zero motivation.

the ol' i took all this apart to upgrade it and 5 years later it's all still in pieces and the motor's been rained on gambit.

 

[junkyardhero]

The long and short of this right now is,
“Where do you want to end up when it’s all said and done?”

this right here is one of the most important questions.

what do you have. where do you want to be. and what's your budget.

 

[rumblefish360]

yeah i agree, but it's a fine line between wanton desire and budget.

We’ll see what the OP wants and the confines budget

sometimes the incremental work is a little more friendly to the pocket book and gratifying in that you can see what each change does. doing everything all at once can be a risky path to walk in that you drop a BUNCH of dough, the car's all in pieces and you can become mired in project creep or stalled out on something with zero motivation.

Yea, did the part by part deal already. I did like the changes that were measured one by one. Definitely fun for me.

I don’t see a risky path at all OF you make a plan and STICK TO IT!!! There is no reason to have what you stated, none at all.

As it is now, I pled parts for a short block to be done and I just dropped it off two days ago. And damn it I forgot the freakin rod bearings at home!!! UGH!!!!

The rest of the engine is on the shelf, waiting to be screwed together. Also, the planned changes for the experiments are on the shelf in full, complete, ready to rock.

Plan ahead, stick to the plan, execute the plan, have fun.

It’s takes a while to gather all the parts. Engine #2 cylinder heads are waiting on intake valves. The valves that came with the head had cracks at the tip. A surprise to me, a delay, added expense, added time, no worries! There isn’t a planned dead line to meet.

Once all the parts are done and ready for assembly, it’ll get done.

Running car upgrades I’m toying with on my ‘79 Magnum.
All parts in house and ready to go. But the car is not insured or plated. No big deal. I had another project call into my lap I need to take care of first. Last week the final parts showed up. The ‘91 Dodge W-150 is running and driving. Swapping out the cylinder heads for fresh 308’s and a factory camshaft. Also the exhaust from the headers back is being redone with a kit from Hooker, header to bumper.

When I get back from vacation….. I’ll be busy busy and more busy. I hope I can get some good quality time in. My garage is coming soon and I have to shuffle vehicles around. LMAO!

I’m gonna like the garage.

 

[Bewy]

I think some people need to re-read post #1. I read from THAT, that the engine is an original 69 engine. I also read from the OPs message that he just wants a small power upgrade that he can feel & he is smart enough to realise that going further with bigger cams etc on a 50+ yr worn engine is asking for trouble.....
Below is a comparison of a 600 Holley v 625 Carter AFB. AFB made more hp, more tq, everywhere & used less fuel doing it. Test was conducted by Edel in the early 70s. Before anybody cries foul/bias: it was not until about 15 yrs later that Edel started making the AFBs & Edel actually were selling Holley carbs under an EDel part #, closer to the time this test was conducted. #4301 is an 850 Holley in my 1979 Edel catalog.

 

[Rat Bastid]

I think some people need to re-read post #1. I read from THAT, that the engine is an original 69 engine. I also read from the OPs message that he just wants a small power upgrade that he can feel & he is smart enough to realise that going further with bigger cams etc on a 50+ yr worn engine is asking for trouble.....
Below is a comparison of a 600 Holley v 625 Carter AFB. AFB made more hp, more tq, everywhere & used less fuel doing it. Test was conducted by Edel in the early 70s. Before anybody cries foul/bias: it was not until about 15 yrs later that Edel started making the AFBs & Edel actually were selling Holley carbs under an EDel part #, closer to the time this test was conducted. #4301 is an 850 Holley in my 1979 Edel catalog.

View attachment 1716097424

I can find a far better 600 that would smoke that door stop.

Feel free to build the best door stop you can, send it over here and I will dyno test your carb.

You will lose. Big.

 

[Bewy]

I wouldn't trust anything you do or say...

 

[Rat Bastid]

I wouldn't trust anything you do or say...

Yep. I can give you all the numbers. A genius like yourself should be able to see if the numbers are correct or not.

Or, you can come with it and watch. Hell, I’d even let you throw the stick.

 

[Bewy]

Well provide the numbers...
When I post something that might be controversial, I try to find an outside reputable & believable source to substantiate the claim. Hence the info provided in post #38. Not going to believe a printout from Bill's dyno shop....but I would believe a dyno printout from say Westech.

 

[Rat Bastid]

Well provide the numbers...
When I post something that might be controversial, I try to find an outside reputable & believable source to substantiate the claim. Hence the info provided in post #38. Not going to believe a printout from Bill's dyno shop....but I would believe a dyno printout from say Westech.

I see. You can read a dyno sheet. That’s YOUR problem.

 

[remytherat]

yeah i agree, but it's a fine line between wanton desire and budget.

I don't want to spend a ton on the performance upgrades, and I don't want to spend a ton on supporting upgrades to make way for more extreme upgrades.

Something that cruises well at 70 mph, not screaming down the highway.
As long as I can punch it at 30 and cruise to 80 in a jiffy i'm chill with it

Strongly leaning towards t-quad and 340/360 intake, exhaust first of course
Small primaries kinda just make sense for what I'm looking to do it seems like
Bottom line the thing has to be somewhat practical cuz I'm gonna drive the hell out of it

however, if you don't have discs up front do that first.

absolutely will do, I want to be able to cruise the canyons without dying

An ignition upgrade anytime is a good thing.

Going to stick with points and see if I can make it work, since if people could make em work in the 60s I don't see why I can't. That being said I have some experience with the pertronix modules which work incredibly well and I will probably install one at some point.

 

[Bewy]

RB,
Still waiting for a dyno sheet....to reads.

 

[RustyRatRod]

RB,
Still waiting for a dyno sheet....to reads.

Go watch your toilet flush backwards. I want video.

 

[Bewy]

Video, even better....Of the toilet flushing backwards?

 

[junkyardhero]

I don't want to spend a ton on the performance upgrades, and I don't want to spend a ton on supporting upgrades to make way for more extreme upgrades.

Something that cruises well at 70 mph, not screaming down the highway.
As long as I can punch it at 30 and cruise to 80 in a jiffy i'm chill with it

Strongly leaning towards t-quad and 340/360 intake, exhaust first of course
Small primaries kinda just make sense for what I'm looking to do it seems like
Bottom line the thing has to be somewhat practical cuz I'm gonna drive the hell out of it


absolutely will do, I want to be able to cruise the canyons without dying


Going to stick with points and see if I can make it work, since if people could make em work in the 60s I don't see why I can't. That being said I have some experience with the pertronix modules which work incredibly well and I will probably install one at some point.

there's a 360 in a dodge van at the sun valley pick your part. stock 4bbl intake with a TQ on top and it even has electronic ignition. swipe all that and you've got some good building blocks for cheap.

however, a 360 manifold is going to have larger ports leading to a mismatch at the head. stick with the 318 stocker (they're out there) or port your heads to match.

that punch up from 30 to 80 is where you're really going to want a cam and some gears. but a 4bbl manifold and a carb even with the 2bbl cam in there is a worth while upgrade.

 

[Rug_Trucker]

there's a 360 in a dodge van at the sun valley pick your part. stock 4bbl intake with a TQ on top and it even has electronic ignition. swipe all that and you've got some good building blocks for cheap.

however, a 360 manifold is going to have larger ports leading to a mismatch at the head. stick with the 318 stocker (they're out there) or port your heads to match.

that punch up from 30 to 80 is where you're really going to want a cam and some gears. but a 4bbl manifold and a carb even with the 2bbl cam in there is a worth while upgrade.

Diplomat cop cars had 360 intakes on 318's. Not a big deal.

I'm not familiar with the AFB metering rod swaps on TQ's. Sounds interesting. I have a shitpile of TQ's for metering rods and jets if I ever need them, plus I have an original Carter Strip Kit for them.

Nice thing on the TQ, and Q-jets is the air valve secondaries is properly adjusted they will only deliver what the engine demands of it. I am sure that is true of the Thunder series Edelbrocks. They are a basic copy of the Carter AVS (air valve secondaries)

I have ran TQ's and a Mopar factory Q-jet on my van as an everyday driver work horse on a 360 RV cam 2200 stall converter. The Q-jet had a slight advantage in mileage, and off idle acceleration to a point. Any old Carter or Q will need the primary throttle shaft bore bushed to take care of the slop/vacuum leak. This includes rebuilt ones from parts stores.

Print out a copy of the Vaanth TQ list. "Federal" spec 318 truck carbs are probably your best bet. Not a big deal if you can't locate one. However my bet is any TQ you drop on will be tuneable without metering rod swaps. Finding someone that knows how to work on them might be tough. If you want a big challenge and like aggravation go for it. If not a Eddie AVS clone is expensive but worth it. I got my brother to put one on his bone stock 302 in his '56 F100. He's happy with it.

The basic Eddie performer will give up power VS a stock iron intake.

Getting an extra set of heads and doing a very basic home port job/chamber cleanup and polish would be a good thing. Opening up the intake ports to the gasket size will create a mild anti-reversion effect if you don't touch the intake.

The less gizmos on the TQ's the better.

 

[Rat Bastid]

Video, even better....Of the toilet flushing backwards?

Yes, of the toilet flushing backwards.


If you want a video from me, you need to send one of your doorstops here. That’ll I’ll post.